comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 1 minute ago
Geez, last thing we need is a president mediator along the lickspittle lines of Hoyle or Bercow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahah

comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 4 hours, 5 minutes ago
It's been a very interesting discussion above gents.

I'll add that my main issue with monarchy is the fact it suggests that some people are 'better' than others just because of the family they're born into. That, in itself, is a pretty good reason to scrap the monarchy IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

To me people have a chip on their shoulder about this, and its more perception than reality. The language doesnt help. It does sound odd at times to be referred to as subjects, and "long to reign over us" but actually the Queen's life really shows where the power now lies....She is rightly lauded for her 70 years of service to this country. Almost her entire adult life given in service to this country. SERVICE !! This does not point towards a monarchy who think they are better than the rest of us. If they did it would be "to hell with you, I'll spend my life shooting game and watching horses!"

Charles will know, as ERII and Prince Philip did before hand, that for the monarchy to survive they have to perform a meaningful function, to modernise and not just be viewed as the privileged aristocracy. Charles will modernise the RF further and as RR suggested it will be down sized, no freeloaders. all having to 'earn their keep'.

I share Sadiqs view that they really are not a barrier to democracy. Just because they are not elected. Given the minimal amount of power they actually have, id question what the purpose of electing such a position is in the first instance and what interest it would generate from the general population. Barely two thirds turn out at elections. I would not expect more than half of the Country voting for a largely powerless apolitical President, and then you're in the realms of a leader appointed democratically but with more than half the country having not voted. Brexit was an example of democracy in action, there are plenty out there who would wish the population were denied access to that democratic process.

Forgetting the fact that the institution is intrinsically undemocratic (the poster boy for it), my thoughts are that a progressive modern state shouldn't need to have a physical embodiment of its (admittedly quite interesting) history. Lift the deference they generate from people and let them choose a path based on achievement. Whatever they stood for when we had an Empire isn't relevant any more.

I think at this point it might be useful to have a discussion around power vs influence. There seems to be a fair deal of debate on what they can or can't do or affect. Clearly they have a lot of influence over domestic and international affairs, even if they don't have the power to directly make the decisions.

comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 hours, 28 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 4 hours, 5 minutes ago
It's been a very interesting discussion above gents.

I'll add that my main issue with monarchy is the fact it suggests that some people are 'better' than others just because of the family they're born into. That, in itself, is a pretty good reason to scrap the monarchy IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

To me people have a chip on their shoulder about this, and its more perception than reality. The language doesnt help. It does sound odd at times to be referred to as subjects, and "long to reign over us" but actually the Queen's life really shows where the power now lies....She is rightly lauded for her 70 years of service to this country. Almost her entire adult life given in service to this country. SERVICE !! This does not point towards a monarchy who think they are better than the rest of us. If they did it would be "to hell with you, I'll spend my life shooting game and watching horses!"

Charles will know, as ERII and Prince Philip did before hand, that for the monarchy to survive they have to perform a meaningful function, to modernise and not just be viewed as the privileged aristocracy. Charles will modernise the RF further and as RR suggested it will be down sized, no freeloaders. all having to 'earn their keep'.

I share Sadiqs view that they really are not a barrier to democracy. Just because they are not elected. Given the minimal amount of power they actually have, id question what the purpose of electing such a position is in the first instance and what interest it would generate from the general population. Barely two thirds turn out at elections. I would not expect more than half of the Country voting for a largely powerless apolitical President, and then you're in the realms of a leader appointed democratically but with more than half the country having not voted. Brexit was an example of democracy in action, there are plenty out there who would wish the population were denied access to that democratic process.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perception is really important though IMO.

If we want to tackle inequality it's hard to do so when there's nothing really fair about those at the top. At least in some countries you do have the chance, albeit a slim one, to be the Head of State. Not here though unless you're born into it.

If you rule out the EDL types and the Hello Magazine/Daily Mail types (none of whom will ever change) it'll be interesting to see if reform/dissolution ever becomes part of the national conversation, even among people who are quite supportive of them.

comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 23 minutes ago
And I totally understand that perspective. The indifference to them. I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values (rightly or wrongly but that’s the reality) and they really don’t cause us much harm (if any).
======
Then you have t been around the world enough, and even if you did, most people would just avoid negative conversations about the monarchy especially if they know you're British.

The fact is the monarchy is seen by many globally as a remaining icon of oppression, colonialism, stolen wealth, cultures thousands of years old massacred in decades, slavery, forced labour, concentration camps etc etc.

It's hard to get that vibe when you're cooped up in well off UK having been fed a fairy tale of the UKs history all your life, first by the education system and societal relations and then by the media while taking time to visit museums full of other people's cultural and political artifacts, the tangible spoils of empire, which they've been trying to get back for decades, but we won't give them back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that is true just because there are many who see the way you describe. There are circa 8 billion people on the planet - how many is many?


After a very quick search, I found the following which backs up what I am saying and refutes what you are:

Across the world, views towards the Royal Family are more favourable than unfavourable (by 35% to 11% on average), though around half are either neutral (37%) or don’t know (16%). Outside of the UK, the most positive countries are Romania (58% favourable), Saudi Arabia (50%), India (48%) and the US (43%) – while Spain and Argentina are the most negative (only 18% favourable in each). In Australia 42% are favourable towards the Royal Family, and 15% are unfavourable.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2018-05/royal_wedding_charts.pdf

Now I will grant that you will put this down to your adored Meghan Markle's influence above anything else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav: I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values

Mamba: No, many people don't think that

Sat Nav: But how many is many?

comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 hours, 56 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 4 hours, 5 minutes ago
It's been a very interesting discussion above gents.

I'll add that my main issue with monarchy is the fact it suggests that some people are 'better' than others just because of the family they're born into. That, in itself, is a pretty good reason to scrap the monarchy IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

To me people have a chip on their shoulder about this, and its more perception than reality. The language doesnt help. It does sound odd at times to be referred to as subjects, and "long to reign over us" but actually the Queen's life really shows where the power now lies....She is rightly lauded for her 70 years of service to this country. Almost her entire adult life given in service to this country. SERVICE !! This does not point towards a monarchy who think they are better than the rest of us. If they did it would be "to hell with you, I'll spend my life shooting game and watching horses!"

Charles will know, as ERII and Prince Philip did before hand, that for the monarchy to survive they have to perform a meaningful function, to modernise and not just be viewed as the privileged aristocracy. Charles will modernise the RF further and as RR suggested it will be down sized, no freeloaders. all having to 'earn their keep'.

I share Sadiqs view that they really are not a barrier to democracy. Just because they are not elected. Given the minimal amount of power they actually have, id question what the purpose of electing such a position is in the first instance and what interest it would generate from the general population. Barely two thirds turn out at elections. I would not expect more than half of the Country voting for a largely powerless apolitical President, and then you're in the realms of a leader appointed democratically but with more than half the country having not voted. Brexit was an example of democracy in action, there are plenty out there who would wish the population were denied access to that democratic process.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Low turnout at an election is still better than a lottery of birth.

comment by The Post Nearly Man (U1270)
posted 4 hours, 17 minutes ago
Forgetting the fact that the institution is intrinsically undemocratic (the poster boy for it), my thoughts are that a progressive modern state shouldn't need to have a physical embodiment of its (admittedly quite interesting) history. Lift the deference they generate from people and let them choose a path based on achievement. Whatever they stood for when we had an Empire isn't relevant any more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly.

Problem is that when you bring up the negative effects of empire, the same people that will tell you that they're all in the past and the world has moved on are usually mostly the same people that get angry over Churchill debates, want to hang on to the monarchy and everything that reminds us of empire.

There's similarities between the Monarchy debate and the statues debate. They don't understanding why people want to bring down the statues, they want the statues kept in honour of the past. But the statues remind other people of something different.

Either it's all in the past or it isn't. If you keep memoirs of the past then so will everyone else. You can't keep your memory while everyone else suffers amnesia.

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 23 minutes ago
And I totally understand that perspective. The indifference to them. I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values (rightly or wrongly but that’s the reality) and they really don’t cause us much harm (if any).
======
Then you have t been around the world enough, and even if you did, most people would just avoid negative conversations about the monarchy especially if they know you're British.

The fact is the monarchy is seen by many globally as a remaining icon of oppression, colonialism, stolen wealth, cultures thousands of years old massacred in decades, slavery, forced labour, concentration camps etc etc.

It's hard to get that vibe when you're cooped up in well off UK having been fed a fairy tale of the UKs history all your life, first by the education system and societal relations and then by the media while taking time to visit museums full of other people's cultural and political artifacts, the tangible spoils of empire, which they've been trying to get back for decades, but we won't give them back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that is true just because there are many who see the way you describe. There are circa 8 billion people on the planet - how many is many?


After a very quick search, I found the following which backs up what I am saying and refutes what you are:

Across the world, views towards the Royal Family are more favourable than unfavourable (by 35% to 11% on average), though around half are either neutral (37%) or don’t know (16%). Outside of the UK, the most positive countries are Romania (58% favourable), Saudi Arabia (50%), India (48%) and the US (43%) – while Spain and Argentina are the most negative (only 18% favourable in each). In Australia 42% are favourable towards the Royal Family, and 15% are unfavourable.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2018-05/royal_wedding_charts.pdf

Now I will grant that you will put this down to your adored Meghan Markle's influence above anything else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav: I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values

Mamba: No, many people don't think that

Sat Nav: But how many is many?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Put the spliff down big man.

comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 8 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 23 minutes ago
And I totally understand that perspective. The indifference to them. I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values (rightly or wrongly but that’s the reality) and they really don’t cause us much harm (if any).
======
Then you have t been around the world enough, and even if you did, most people would just avoid negative conversations about the monarchy especially if they know you're British.

The fact is the monarchy is seen by many globally as a remaining icon of oppression, colonialism, stolen wealth, cultures thousands of years old massacred in decades, slavery, forced labour, concentration camps etc etc.

It's hard to get that vibe when you're cooped up in well off UK having been fed a fairy tale of the UKs history all your life, first by the education system and societal relations and then by the media while taking time to visit museums full of other people's cultural and political artifacts, the tangible spoils of empire, which they've been trying to get back for decades, but we won't give them back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that is true just because there are many who see the way you describe. There are circa 8 billion people on the planet - how many is many?


After a very quick search, I found the following which backs up what I am saying and refutes what you are:

Across the world, views towards the Royal Family are more favourable than unfavourable (by 35% to 11% on average), though around half are either neutral (37%) or don’t know (16%). Outside of the UK, the most positive countries are Romania (58% favourable), Saudi Arabia (50%), India (48%) and the US (43%) – while Spain and Argentina are the most negative (only 18% favourable in each). In Australia 42% are favourable towards the Royal Family, and 15% are unfavourable.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2018-05/royal_wedding_charts.pdf

Now I will grant that you will put this down to your adored Meghan Markle's influence above anything else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav: I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values

Mamba: No, many people don't think that

Sat Nav: But how many is many?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Put the spliff down big man.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At least I can blame it on Mary J. What's your excuse for introducing the term "many people" to this conversation and then when confronted start asking how many is many?

I mean, how many was many when you brought it up?

Genius.

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 8 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 6 hours, 57 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 23 minutes ago
And I totally understand that perspective. The indifference to them. I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values (rightly or wrongly but that’s the reality) and they really don’t cause us much harm (if any).
======
Then you have t been around the world enough, and even if you did, most people would just avoid negative conversations about the monarchy especially if they know you're British.

The fact is the monarchy is seen by many globally as a remaining icon of oppression, colonialism, stolen wealth, cultures thousands of years old massacred in decades, slavery, forced labour, concentration camps etc etc.

It's hard to get that vibe when you're cooped up in well off UK having been fed a fairy tale of the UKs history all your life, first by the education system and societal relations and then by the media while taking time to visit museums full of other people's cultural and political artifacts, the tangible spoils of empire, which they've been trying to get back for decades, but we won't give them back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that is true just because there are many who see the way you describe. There are circa 8 billion people on the planet - how many is many?


After a very quick search, I found the following which backs up what I am saying and refutes what you are:

Across the world, views towards the Royal Family are more favourable than unfavourable (by 35% to 11% on average), though around half are either neutral (37%) or don’t know (16%). Outside of the UK, the most positive countries are Romania (58% favourable), Saudi Arabia (50%), India (48%) and the US (43%) – while Spain and Argentina are the most negative (only 18% favourable in each). In Australia 42% are favourable towards the Royal Family, and 15% are unfavourable.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2018-05/royal_wedding_charts.pdf

Now I will grant that you will put this down to your adored Meghan Markle's influence above anything else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav: I just think that across the globe there are many people that think fondly of them and look to them as an example of British values

Mamba: No, many people don't think that

Sat Nav: But how many is many?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Put the spliff down big man.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At least I can blame it on Mary J. What's your excuse for introducing the term "many people" to this conversation and then when confronted start asking how many is many?

I mean, how many was many when you brought it up?

Genius.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I started with many, you then countered with your many so I asked how many your many was to compare it with my many.

I then provided you with a survey broken down country by country providing international opinion on the British monarchy. Which even your dumb smoked up arris can probably see that the support outweighs the opposition.

You’re having yet another embarrassing moment mate….

One of **many** moments 😉

I started with many, you then countered with your many so I asked how many your many was to compare it with my many
=====
The very obvious context is that your many is the same as my many unless I gave a reason to doubt that, which I didn't.

I then provided you with a survey broken down country by country providing international opinion on the British monarchy. Which even your dumb smoked up arris can probably see that the support outweighs the opposition.
====
So surveys are now suddenly the be all and end all? You change opinions every week together with your underwear or what?

comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 34 minutes ago
One of **many** moments 😉
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Embarrassing.

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 9 minutes ago
I then provided you with a survey broken down country by country providing international opinion on the British monarchy. Which even your dumb smoked up arris can probably see that the support outweighs the opposition.
====
So surveys are now suddenly the be all and end all? You change opinions every week together with your underwear or what?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Surveys polling the international community now mean the same or less than your generalised opinion?

Embarrassing 😳

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 12 minutes ago
I started with many, you then countered with your many so I asked how many your many was to compare it with my many
=====
The very obvious context is that your many is the same as my many unless I gave a reason to doubt that, which I didn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The survey results would demonstrate otherwise big man.

Care to share your data which led you to your conclusions? I look forward to pouring through the data

😂😂😂

Stop smoking weed, it’s bad for you.

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 34 minutes ago
One of **many** moments 😉
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Embarrassing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn’t my best work I’ll agree

Catchy chant, wonder if Robb is there

https://twitter.com/socialist_davey/status/1572852708020981761

comment by Eagle Fang (U9028)
posted 10 minutes ago
Catchy chant, wonder if Robb is there

https://twitter.com/socialist_davey/status/1572852708020981761
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hero's the world needs

comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 12 minutes ago
I started with many, you then countered with your many so I asked how many your many was to compare it with my many
=====
The very obvious context is that your many is the same as my many unless I gave a reason to doubt that, which I didn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The survey results would demonstrate otherwise big man.

Care to share your data which led you to your conclusions? I look forward to pouring through the data

😂😂😂

Stop smoking weed, it’s bad for you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, survey schmurvey.

Secondly, I have to smoke weed to dumb myself down to a level where I can interact with lesser minds like you at a level you are more accustomed to and can comprehend. It better than being a natural born educated idiot.

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Sadiq Khan (world class mayor) - #JC4PM (U18243)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 12 minutes ago
I started with many, you then countered with your many so I asked how many your many was to compare it with my many
=====
The very obvious context is that your many is the same as my many unless I gave a reason to doubt that, which I didn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The survey results would demonstrate otherwise big man.

Care to share your data which led you to your conclusions? I look forward to pouring through the data

😂😂😂

Stop smoking weed, it’s bad for you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, survey schmurvey.

Secondly, I have to smoke weed to dumb myself down to a level where I can interact with lesser minds like you at a level you are more accustomed to and can comprehend. It better than being a natural born educated idiot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Survey schmurvey? 😂😂😂

Ah some form of robotripping? I like

Firstly, robotripping got nothing to do with natural weed.

Secondly, didn't wanna start talking about this but I have to put you in your place. I talk from personal lifetime experience. What's the biggest NGO in the world? I've worked with them for over 10 years now. We know what the world thinks of the monarchy much better than some survey conducted by Europeans who have their own history of horrors across the world, and their own monarchy.

My job is all over Africa, the middle east, Australia and Oceania sometimes. I interact daily with many people from different cultures and backgrounds. My colleagues are from all over the world. My own family is in diaspora all over the world. My own father came here from Africa, my mum's family have roots in Ireland, Liverpool and fack knows where else as I've never done that DNA thing, which I will soon.

You are cooped up living under a bridge and fed constant and perpetual fairy tales from your first day on earth and ever since. The whole world struggles to see through the haze.Throughout school and afterwards through news organisations, even the commonwealth economic and sporting organisations, and through media like IPSOS, a firm that takes money to give favourable poll results.

Would be interested to know who commissioned and paid for that poll because sponsoring and paying for such propaganda has been this country's MO since the end of colonialism. Why do you think the BBC is available globally in thousands of languages? Look at what they did with Mandela, their use of commonwealth themed propaganda etc etc.

I don't blame you for being like this. You are the result of something that's so effective that you are not even aware of it's existence. The type that thinks we civilised the world and built railways as a gift. The type that thinks our victims appreciate what we did for them.

Opinion on the monarchy is like opinion on Germany. Everybody knows the Natzis were beyond horrible but the world spares Germany the drama on their past because it's unfair on the modern generation which is blameless. UK policy in some colonized lands was as bad as Natzism but again, they've done a good job of trying to make out like they were different or better.

Only difference is that Natzism was abolished along with all it's leaders and icons. The British still have their monarchy though, and will cling on for dear life together with the statues of unimaginable brutal folk and odes to Churchill the racist.

comment by Serious Thorgen Kloppinson - No laughing matter (U1282)
posted 7 minutes ago
Firstly, robotripping got nothing to do with natural weed.

Secondly, didn't wanna start talking about this but I have to put you in your place. I talk from personal lifetime experience. What's the biggest NGO in the world? I've worked with them for over 10 years now. We know what the world thinks of the monarchy much better than some survey conducted by Europeans who have their own history of horrors across the world, and their own monarchy.

My job is all over Africa, the middle east, Australia and Oceania sometimes. I interact daily with many people from different cultures and backgrounds. My colleagues are from all over the world. My own family is in diaspora all over the world. My own father came here from Africa, my mum's family have roots in Ireland, Liverpool and fack knows where else as I've never done that DNA thing, which I will soon.

You are cooped up living under a bridge and fed constant and perpetual fairy tales from your first day on earth and ever since. The whole world struggles to see through the haze.Throughout school and afterwards through news organisations, even the commonwealth economic and sporting organisations, and through media like IPSOS, a firm that takes money to give favourable poll results.

Would be interested to know who commissioned and paid for that poll because sponsoring and paying for such propaganda has been this country's MO since the end of colonialism. Why do you think the BBC is available globally in thousands of languages? Look at what they did with Mandela, their use of commonwealth themed propaganda etc etc.

I don't blame you for being like this. You are the result of something that's so effective that you are not even aware of it's existence. The type that thinks we civilised the world and built railways as a gift. The type that thinks our victims appreciate what we did for them.

Opinion on the monarchy is like opinion on Germany. Everybody knows the Natzis were beyond horrible but the world spares Germany the drama on their past because it's unfair on the modern generation which is blameless. UK policy in some colonized lands was as bad as Natzism but again, they've done a good job of trying to make out like they were different or better.

Only difference is that Natzism was abolished along with all it's leaders and icons. The British still have their monarchy though, and will cling on for dear life together with the statues of unimaginable brutal folk and odes to Churchill the racist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know it’s things like cough medicine, hence ‘some form of’.

I’m really happy with to read your lifetime experience, thank you. But you’re taking to someone that speaks several languages and has lived in two different countries to my country of birth. The nature of my work is mostly dealing with international clients. So I’m not cooped up living under a bridge, thank you very much.


So where is your data?

MY LIVED EXPERIENCE, MY TRUTH

No mate, gtfo with that nonsense.

Monarchy and nazsm….very good.

Not wasting further time on you.