I could see why someone would be against the penalty being given, but I can also see why it could be given. I don't think it's such a black and white situation.
---
That's pretty much my take, too. If the defender had missed the standing foot I'd be on here saying it's ridiculous var should get in the bin etc. As it is, I think it's an interesting debate about how the sport is reffed in general. There will always be these debates that aren't satisfactorily resolved by slow motion replays. And long may it continue!
First we are told time and again trent can't defend. Trent is this trent is that.
Cancelo got done up like a kipper by salah amd today he's barged Wilson over making zero effort at ball.
Shocker of a defender but the narrative is he's gods gift.
Same with kdb flopping. He's gone down and frankly what's the point of var when this is what we get. Surely ref should be looking and checking his own assumptions properly and not just throwing then pen and then that's it.
Var decided conveniently that its not clear and obvious so work away with the brown envelope ref.
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 8 minutes ago
To an extent, but then you’ve got to consider that KDB has quick feet, so it’s not simply poor defending. Unless you are suggesting to people play a different sport when the ball is in the box, which is kind of what this contact thing is encouraging - basically making it non contact.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It essentially has been for a while (not that I like it at all). He did hang his leg out though, nowadays you’ve got to not give the ref the decision at all.
Be interesting to have seen if he hadn’t given it what VAR would have done.
Yeah that’s what piiiiisses me off, though.
I get what you mean about giving them the chance to make a decision, but with the speed of play I don’t think it always means it’s poor defending, especially when you are trying to close down extremely skilful players.
I suspect VAR would have given a pen. There’s been quite a few of these given by VAR I’m sure of it.
Yeah there's no way the var ref watches contact like that in the box from 6 different angles and doesn't give it. They'd be literally crucified
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 14 seconds ago
Yeah that’s what piiiiisses me off, though.
I get what you mean about giving them the chance to make a decision, but with the speed of play I don’t think it always means it’s poor defending, especially when you are trying to close down extremely skilful players.
I suspect VAR would have given a pen. There’s been quite a few of these given by VAR I’m sure of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Me too but then it’s not poor refereeing as such then, it’s not liking the application of the rules by all of them (which I’d agree with).
That one I thought was poor defending though, there was a covering defender there, he didn’t need to get even close to making contact.
Not as bad as Cancelos admittedly!
Yeah what was he trying to do there anyway? At best he's maybe getting a toe on the ball. Tired defending
I think that application of the rules is poor refereeing, though. But I do get what you mean. It’s the same with the handball laws, players are expected to have their arms by their sides at all times ffs.
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
I think that application of the rules is poor refereeing, though. But I do get what you mean. It’s the same with the handball laws, players are expected to have their arms by their sides at all times ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That too. Ultimately, if VARs going to give it anyway, then that ref probably would have been criticised by pgmol if he hadn’t given it.
I’ve not been a fan of the application of some of the laws, particularly in the penalty areas, for a while now.
They could do with actually consulting players and managers when drawing up some of these laws, something I don’t think they do.
comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 15 minutes ago
Same with kdb flopping. He's gone down and frankly what's the point of var when this is what we get. Surely ref should be looking and checking his own assumptions properly and not just throwing then pen and then that's it.
Var decided conveniently that its not clear and obvious so work away with the brown envelope ref.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ref can't ask to watch it back though, it has to be on VAR's recommendation. And when the on-pitch ref has made a decision rather than missed an incident, generally VAR will go with it unless they feel there's been a huge blunder. In this case, the contact existed and the on-pitch ref saw it and penalised it.
I don't think you'll see many cases of the VAR official calling back the ref to tell him "yeah, there was contact, but here in the VAR room we don't think it was enough."
I think the above is also part of the reason we're seeing more penalties, in that it's more like for VAR to call back something the ref hasn't seen than it is for them to step in to correct something he's actively awarded (other than a goal, that is).
All players dive these days, but some are worse than others.
Salah is far worse than KDB.
Maybe that’s why you hear more about one than the other.
Arnold injured Kvaradonas back
That is a poor decision to award a penalty for that, KDB was looking for it and threw himself to the ground (arms going up above his head first before the fall) a slight contact on his heel isnt enough to give a pen, without the acting I doubt the ref would have given it
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 57 seconds ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagine being taken in by this.
Comedy gold.
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting point here though:
(The entire notion that a foul has to be enough to take you off your feet is moronic.)
comment by Elanga is a Dancer (U5125)
posted 4 minutes ago
That is a poor decision to award a penalty for that, KDB was looking for it and threw himself to the ground (arms going up above his head first before the fall) a slight contact on his heel isnt enough to give a pen, without the acting I doubt the ref would have given it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is speaking to another issue in refereeing that has no easy solution - how does a ref pick up on a foul if it's slight? I think we can agree there's plenty of fouls (to the point above) that aren't enough to take you off your feet. I'd suggest the current way of players falling over and the ref/var making the call is the only workable solution.
What's missing IMO is properly punishing for simulation when there's no contact at all.
comment by Christ We Won (TENƎꓕ) (U17162)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
KDB is a great player though, Salah is a couple season wonder
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Daz, like I said, I do get the points you're trying to make. It's just that I think there are shades of grey to it. When we talk about impeding, how much impeding through contact should be allowed that isn't explicitly permitted in the laws?
I don't think there's anything in the book that says you can kick someone as long as it doesn't impede the opponent. While I understand that KDB is trying to milk it to the greatest possible extent, it shouldn't inform the refs decision either way. It's irritating, but it isn't what determines the existence or not of a foul.
That's why asked what if he pulls up in his run? You often see that when a midfield runner is caught. You don't need to be immediately off balance to be impeded. All you need is for a kick to force you to shorten your step half a foot, and it can be enough to lose the possible advantage you might have had. As someone who prefers skill over muscle, I think defenders already get away with more holding and pulling and shoving than they should. Should you really be allowed to use 'micro-fouls' to slow down a player because it's somehow unfair that he's faster than you?
I'm not saying any of this is the case with KDB, because I haven't watched it back that many times to form an opinion either way, but we are probably at odds over just how much and what kind of contact should be allowed.
"How much" is almost impossible to quantify and highly subjective, and if we as fans have different thresholds then it's perfectly normal and I'd say almost inevitable for ref to have them too.
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 13 minutes ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly a very useful article.
comment by Peter O'Hanraha-hanrahan (U1217)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 13 minutes ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly a very useful article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry?
comment by Bãleš left boot (U22081)
posted 52 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
I don't think either of them were penalties, although definitely open to interpretation so City were more hard done by as theirs resulted in them having to play most of the game with ten men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't think this is a pen? https://dubz.co/v/6zjb61
Blimey
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Borderline but no I don't. It's interpretation of course but I think force was adequate and it was shoulder to shoulder.
I wouldn't blame Cancelo there, though. He's got to make the challenge or he's just letting him score. The striker did great to get in front of him at the last second
Sign in if you want to comment
KDB dive
Page 3 of 9
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posted on 5/11/22
I could see why someone would be against the penalty being given, but I can also see why it could be given. I don't think it's such a black and white situation.
---
That's pretty much my take, too. If the defender had missed the standing foot I'd be on here saying it's ridiculous var should get in the bin etc. As it is, I think it's an interesting debate about how the sport is reffed in general. There will always be these debates that aren't satisfactorily resolved by slow motion replays. And long may it continue!
posted on 5/11/22
First we are told time and again trent can't defend. Trent is this trent is that.
Cancelo got done up like a kipper by salah amd today he's barged Wilson over making zero effort at ball.
Shocker of a defender but the narrative is he's gods gift.
Same with kdb flopping. He's gone down and frankly what's the point of var when this is what we get. Surely ref should be looking and checking his own assumptions properly and not just throwing then pen and then that's it.
Var decided conveniently that its not clear and obvious so work away with the brown envelope ref.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 8 minutes ago
To an extent, but then you’ve got to consider that KDB has quick feet, so it’s not simply poor defending. Unless you are suggesting to people play a different sport when the ball is in the box, which is kind of what this contact thing is encouraging - basically making it non contact.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It essentially has been for a while (not that I like it at all). He did hang his leg out though, nowadays you’ve got to not give the ref the decision at all.
Be interesting to have seen if he hadn’t given it what VAR would have done.
posted on 5/11/22
Yeah that’s what piiiiisses me off, though.
I get what you mean about giving them the chance to make a decision, but with the speed of play I don’t think it always means it’s poor defending, especially when you are trying to close down extremely skilful players.
I suspect VAR would have given a pen. There’s been quite a few of these given by VAR I’m sure of it.
posted on 5/11/22
Yeah there's no way the var ref watches contact like that in the box from 6 different angles and doesn't give it. They'd be literally crucified
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 14 seconds ago
Yeah that’s what piiiiisses me off, though.
I get what you mean about giving them the chance to make a decision, but with the speed of play I don’t think it always means it’s poor defending, especially when you are trying to close down extremely skilful players.
I suspect VAR would have given a pen. There’s been quite a few of these given by VAR I’m sure of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Me too but then it’s not poor refereeing as such then, it’s not liking the application of the rules by all of them (which I’d agree with).
That one I thought was poor defending though, there was a covering defender there, he didn’t need to get even close to making contact.
Not as bad as Cancelos admittedly!
posted on 5/11/22
Yeah what was he trying to do there anyway? At best he's maybe getting a toe on the ball. Tired defending
posted on 5/11/22
I think that application of the rules is poor refereeing, though. But I do get what you mean. It’s the same with the handball laws, players are expected to have their arms by their sides at all times ffs.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
I think that application of the rules is poor refereeing, though. But I do get what you mean. It’s the same with the handball laws, players are expected to have their arms by their sides at all times ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That too. Ultimately, if VARs going to give it anyway, then that ref probably would have been criticised by pgmol if he hadn’t given it.
I’ve not been a fan of the application of some of the laws, particularly in the penalty areas, for a while now.
posted on 5/11/22
They could do with actually consulting players and managers when drawing up some of these laws, something I don’t think they do.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 15 minutes ago
Same with kdb flopping. He's gone down and frankly what's the point of var when this is what we get. Surely ref should be looking and checking his own assumptions properly and not just throwing then pen and then that's it.
Var decided conveniently that its not clear and obvious so work away with the brown envelope ref.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ref can't ask to watch it back though, it has to be on VAR's recommendation. And when the on-pitch ref has made a decision rather than missed an incident, generally VAR will go with it unless they feel there's been a huge blunder. In this case, the contact existed and the on-pitch ref saw it and penalised it.
I don't think you'll see many cases of the VAR official calling back the ref to tell him "yeah, there was contact, but here in the VAR room we don't think it was enough."
I think the above is also part of the reason we're seeing more penalties, in that it's more like for VAR to call back something the ref hasn't seen than it is for them to step in to correct something he's actively awarded (other than a goal, that is).
posted on 5/11/22
All players dive these days, but some are worse than others.
Salah is far worse than KDB.
Maybe that’s why you hear more about one than the other.
posted on 5/11/22
Arnold injured Kvaradonas back
posted on 5/11/22
That is a poor decision to award a penalty for that, KDB was looking for it and threw himself to the ground (arms going up above his head first before the fall) a slight contact on his heel isnt enough to give a pen, without the acting I doubt the ref would have given it
posted on 5/11/22
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 57 seconds ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagine being taken in by this.
Comedy gold.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting point here though:
(The entire notion that a foul has to be enough to take you off your feet is moronic.)
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Elanga is a Dancer (U5125)
posted 4 minutes ago
That is a poor decision to award a penalty for that, KDB was looking for it and threw himself to the ground (arms going up above his head first before the fall) a slight contact on his heel isnt enough to give a pen, without the acting I doubt the ref would have given it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is speaking to another issue in refereeing that has no easy solution - how does a ref pick up on a foul if it's slight? I think we can agree there's plenty of fouls (to the point above) that aren't enough to take you off your feet. I'd suggest the current way of players falling over and the ref/var making the call is the only workable solution.
What's missing IMO is properly punishing for simulation when there's no contact at all.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Christ We Won (TENƎꓕ) (U17162)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
KDB is a great player though, Salah is a couple season wonder
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 5/11/22
Daz, like I said, I do get the points you're trying to make. It's just that I think there are shades of grey to it. When we talk about impeding, how much impeding through contact should be allowed that isn't explicitly permitted in the laws?
I don't think there's anything in the book that says you can kick someone as long as it doesn't impede the opponent. While I understand that KDB is trying to milk it to the greatest possible extent, it shouldn't inform the refs decision either way. It's irritating, but it isn't what determines the existence or not of a foul.
That's why asked what if he pulls up in his run? You often see that when a midfield runner is caught. You don't need to be immediately off balance to be impeded. All you need is for a kick to force you to shorten your step half a foot, and it can be enough to lose the possible advantage you might have had. As someone who prefers skill over muscle, I think defenders already get away with more holding and pulling and shoving than they should. Should you really be allowed to use 'micro-fouls' to slow down a player because it's somehow unfair that he's faster than you?
I'm not saying any of this is the case with KDB, because I haven't watched it back that many times to form an opinion either way, but we are probably at odds over just how much and what kind of contact should be allowed.
"How much" is almost impossible to quantify and highly subjective, and if we as fans have different thresholds then it's perfectly normal and I'd say almost inevitable for ref to have them too.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 13 minutes ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly a very useful article.
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Peter O'Hanraha-hanrahan (U1217)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody (U6374)
posted 13 minutes ago
https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/03/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest-something-is-very-very-wrong/
No doubt biased commentary but the stats are sound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly a very useful article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry?
posted on 5/11/22
comment by Bãleš left boot (U22081)
posted 52 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
I don't think either of them were penalties, although definitely open to interpretation so City were more hard done by as theirs resulted in them having to play most of the game with ten men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't think this is a pen? https://dubz.co/v/6zjb61
Blimey
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Borderline but no I don't. It's interpretation of course but I think force was adequate and it was shoulder to shoulder.
posted on 5/11/22
It's shoulder to back.
posted on 5/11/22
I wouldn't blame Cancelo there, though. He's got to make the challenge or he's just letting him score. The striker did great to get in front of him at the last second
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