I believe we need both cover for Bruno and the longer term option of deploying a player in his position who takes care of the ball a bit more / is part of a more patient attacking structure that emphasises dominating possession. I think Bruno is too important, and just so phenomenally productive, to consider off-loading at this point.
As to deputies / alternatives, I think it's good if we can 'recruit internally' as we have so many other positions requiring investment. I think Sancho could be a credible candidate for that role (especially considering his lack of explosive pace and competition on the left wing). I think Amad might just emerge as an option too.
Hmm… given both those players have contributed more than Sancho has dreamt of for utd, and he’s not played there for us… but as an experiment might be worth a try, problem is what fixtures do you try it in?
comment by Baz tard (U19119)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hmm… given both those players have contributed more than Sancho has dreamt of for utd, and he’s not played there for us… but as an experiment might be worth a try, problem is what fixtures do you try it in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's possible it doesn't happen until ETH is forced to due to Bruno's absence.
comment by Baz tard (U19119)
posted 6 minutes ago
Hmm… given both those players have contributed more than Sancho has dreamt of for utd, and he’s not played there for us… but as an experiment might be worth a try, problem is what fixtures do you try it in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if he's fit enough, Wednesday's game against Forest, then the FA Cup 5th round game at home to either Luton or Grimsby.
Why would we sell Bruno or Eriksen?
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
Ridiculous but no reason why?
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah no real reason why not, just needs to be a lot better than the abject shiiiite we’ve seen from him so far
Bruno is average i suppose. Given we should be targeting winning the league/champ league though, eventually we really want elite players. His output about half the top players, and it also masks how many times he loses the ball.
assists & goals this season (prem/fa cup):
KDB 15 - games 19
Oedergaard 14 - games 18
Almiron 11 - games 20
Maddison 11 - games 13
Andres Pereira 9 - games 22
Fernandes 9 - games 20
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 29 minutes ago
Bruno is average i suppose. Given we should be targeting winning the league/champ league though, eventually we really want elite players. His output about half the top players, and it also masks how many times he loses the ball.
assists & goals this season (prem/fa cup):
KDB 15 - games 19
Oedergaard 14 - games 18
Almiron 11 - games 20
Maddison 11 - games 13
Andres Pereira 9 - games 22
Fernandes 9 - games 20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno isn’t perfect but I’d bet other than KDB he has better stats than any of those since joining United.
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 20 minutes ago
Bruno is average i suppose. Given we should be targeting winning the league/champ league though, eventually we really want elite players. His output about half the top players, and it also masks how many times he loses the ball.
assists & goals this season (prem/fa cup):
KDB 15 - games 19
Oedergaard 14 - games 18
Almiron 11 - games 20
Maddison 11 - games 13
Andres Pereira 9 - games 22
Fernandes 9 - games 20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a small data sample which is also liable to be warped by things like how well / badly other players have finished chances he created. If you look at Fernandes' output over a longer period, there are very few players in any position who create as many chances or have as many goal involvements. There's obviously a trade-off in terms of lack of game control compared with other number 10s but calling him 'average' in terms of output is objectively wrong.
I agree totally with RR.
I do think ETH will have to make a decision in time with Bruno. Does his output outweigh the amount of times he loses the ball often putting the team under pressure?
It’s not a decision for the summer as a striker followed by a progressive midfielders should be the priorities and selling Bruno would just create another problem.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
If you look at Fernandes' output over a longer period, there are very few players in any position who create as many chances or have as many goal involvements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season, pl only, goal involvements and minutes per involvement:
fernandes - 24, every 202 minutes
de bruyne - 38, 99.5 minutes
maddison - 31, 116 minutes
mount - 25, 153 minutes
odegaard - 25, 173 minutes
last 2 years
pogba - 18, 180 minutes
this bizarre myth of bruno's "phenonemal productivity" really needs to die a death, it hasn't been true since his first 6 months at the club, but for some reason people persist in this "we can live with him giving the ball away when he is this productive" argument.
but forget about best in league/world, he's not even keeping up with mason mount.
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
If you look at Fernandes' output over a longer period, there are very few players in any position who create as many chances or have as many goal involvements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season, pl only, goal involvements and minutes per involvement:
fernandes - 24, every 202 minutes
de bruyne - 38, 99.5 minutes
maddison - 31, 116 minutes
mount - 25, 153 minutes
odegaard - 25, 173 minutes
last 2 years
pogba - 18, 180 minutes
this bizarre myth of bruno's "phenonemal productivity" really needs to die a death, it hasn't been true since his first 6 months at the club, but for some reason people persist in this "we can live with him giving the ball away when he is this productive" argument.
but forget about best in league/world, he's not even keeping up with mason mount.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He had 28 goals and 17 assists in 20/21.
His downturn in output like other attackers in the side took a serious downturn coinciding with Ronaldo joining.
Since Ronaldo has left he has started scoring again.
As I said he’s not perfect and I think a decision will have to be made on him but judging him solely from the start of last season is flawed.
comment by The Process (U20671)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He had 28 goals and 17 assists in 20/21.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just under half - 13 of 28 - of his goals were from the penalty spot. in the league alone he had, stripping out penalties, 9 goals and 11 assists, 20 total involvements, one every 155 minutes, ie looking at the 4 players i compared him with above, good enough to lift him from 5th to 4th in terms of involvement per 90 minutes.
as for the claim that "there are very few players in any position who have as many goal involvements", i don't know where to begin. the guy is never injured, which is great, but his productivity isn't anywhere near the level people seem to think it is.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, many did not say that about Shaw at CB. Don't be melodramatic. I didn't think I'd need to explain this. Sancho is struggling on the flank where there's more space. He can't beat a man and loses the ball in tight spaces. What's he gonna do at AM? Thread some through balls through to Rashy?
Sancho would need to get a lot better off the ball to play in that position. He needs to anyway just to play on the wing for us.
DDD if you look at stats like chances created, Bruno has been right up there with the best players - ahead of De Bruyne, even in the collectively catastrophic 21-22 season, where he was second only to TTA in the PL.
Anyway, we can quibble about which stats are most relevant, or what's the most appropriate time frame for the stats to give the most accurate picture. Meanwhile, we can probably agree that replacing him with someone who helps us control possession better / loses the ball less, either means having a player who contributes fewer goals and assists (because he takes fewer risks) or is a world class that is very hard to find / afford. My sense is that we're not yet the well oiled machine with multiple goal threats which means we can comfortably do without Bruno. But I do think it makes sense for us to start building a side that isn't reliant on him, which means a new CF and grooming an understudy to Bruno who is less of a maverick.
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, many did not say that about Shaw at CB. Don't be melodramatic. I didn't think I'd need to explain this. Sancho is struggling on the flank where there's more space. He can't beat a man and loses the ball in tight spaces. What's he gonna do at AM? Thread some through balls through to Rashy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
except this is not true. Bruno loses the ball far more than Sancho does.
Bruno offers far more as an overall package in the number 10 position than Sancho would. That Sancho has better ball retention isn’t all that important when weighed up against that.
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, many did not say that about Shaw at CB. Don't be melodramatic. I didn't think I'd need to explain this. Sancho is struggling on the flank where there's more space. He can't beat a man and loses the ball in tight spaces. What's he gonna do at AM? Thread some through balls through to Rashy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
except this is not true. Bruno loses the ball far more than Sancho does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because Bruno plays centrally is is a different player with a different role in the team.
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
Bruno offers far more as an overall package in the number 10 position than Sancho would. That Sancho has better ball retention isn’t all that important when weighed up against that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He doesn't. How do you account for role in the team when calculating ball retention?
I mean, VVD has better ball retention that Thiago. Maybe Liverpool should play VVD in attacking midfield then.
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
I mean, VVD has better ball retention that Thiago. Maybe Liverpool should play VVD in attacking midfield then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season they both have 5 assists in all competitions, so not a bad idea.
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
I mean, VVD has better ball retention that Thiago. Maybe Liverpool should play VVD in attacking midfield then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season they both have 5 assists in all competitions, so not a bad idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Assists you say?
OK. Since both have 5 assists, that means you can go ahead and play Sancho in AM.
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posted on 28/1/23
I believe we need both cover for Bruno and the longer term option of deploying a player in his position who takes care of the ball a bit more / is part of a more patient attacking structure that emphasises dominating possession. I think Bruno is too important, and just so phenomenally productive, to consider off-loading at this point.
As to deputies / alternatives, I think it's good if we can 'recruit internally' as we have so many other positions requiring investment. I think Sancho could be a credible candidate for that role (especially considering his lack of explosive pace and competition on the left wing). I think Amad might just emerge as an option too.
posted on 28/1/23
Hmm… given both those players have contributed more than Sancho has dreamt of for utd, and he’s not played there for us… but as an experiment might be worth a try, problem is what fixtures do you try it in?
posted on 28/1/23
comment by Baz tard (U19119)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hmm… given both those players have contributed more than Sancho has dreamt of for utd, and he’s not played there for us… but as an experiment might be worth a try, problem is what fixtures do you try it in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's possible it doesn't happen until ETH is forced to due to Bruno's absence.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by Baz tard (U19119)
posted 6 minutes ago
Hmm… given both those players have contributed more than Sancho has dreamt of for utd, and he’s not played there for us… but as an experiment might be worth a try, problem is what fixtures do you try it in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if he's fit enough, Wednesday's game against Forest, then the FA Cup 5th round game at home to either Luton or Grimsby.
posted on 28/1/23
Why would we sell Bruno or Eriksen?
posted on 28/1/23
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
posted on 28/1/23
Ridiculous but no reason why?
posted on 28/1/23
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah no real reason why not, just needs to be a lot better than the abject shiiiite we’ve seen from him so far
posted on 28/1/23
Bruno is average i suppose. Given we should be targeting winning the league/champ league though, eventually we really want elite players. His output about half the top players, and it also masks how many times he loses the ball.
assists & goals this season (prem/fa cup):
KDB 15 - games 19
Oedergaard 14 - games 18
Almiron 11 - games 20
Maddison 11 - games 13
Andres Pereira 9 - games 22
Fernandes 9 - games 20
posted on 28/1/23
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 29 minutes ago
Bruno is average i suppose. Given we should be targeting winning the league/champ league though, eventually we really want elite players. His output about half the top players, and it also masks how many times he loses the ball.
assists & goals this season (prem/fa cup):
KDB 15 - games 19
Oedergaard 14 - games 18
Almiron 11 - games 20
Maddison 11 - games 13
Andres Pereira 9 - games 22
Fernandes 9 - games 20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno isn’t perfect but I’d bet other than KDB he has better stats than any of those since joining United.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 20 minutes ago
Bruno is average i suppose. Given we should be targeting winning the league/champ league though, eventually we really want elite players. His output about half the top players, and it also masks how many times he loses the ball.
assists & goals this season (prem/fa cup):
KDB 15 - games 19
Oedergaard 14 - games 18
Almiron 11 - games 20
Maddison 11 - games 13
Andres Pereira 9 - games 22
Fernandes 9 - games 20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a small data sample which is also liable to be warped by things like how well / badly other players have finished chances he created. If you look at Fernandes' output over a longer period, there are very few players in any position who create as many chances or have as many goal involvements. There's obviously a trade-off in terms of lack of game control compared with other number 10s but calling him 'average' in terms of output is objectively wrong.
posted on 28/1/23
I agree totally with RR.
I do think ETH will have to make a decision in time with Bruno. Does his output outweigh the amount of times he loses the ball often putting the team under pressure?
It’s not a decision for the summer as a striker followed by a progressive midfielders should be the priorities and selling Bruno would just create another problem.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
If you look at Fernandes' output over a longer period, there are very few players in any position who create as many chances or have as many goal involvements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season, pl only, goal involvements and minutes per involvement:
fernandes - 24, every 202 minutes
de bruyne - 38, 99.5 minutes
maddison - 31, 116 minutes
mount - 25, 153 minutes
odegaard - 25, 173 minutes
last 2 years
pogba - 18, 180 minutes
this bizarre myth of bruno's "phenonemal productivity" really needs to die a death, it hasn't been true since his first 6 months at the club, but for some reason people persist in this "we can live with him giving the ball away when he is this productive" argument.
but forget about best in league/world, he's not even keeping up with mason mount.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
If you look at Fernandes' output over a longer period, there are very few players in any position who create as many chances or have as many goal involvements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season, pl only, goal involvements and minutes per involvement:
fernandes - 24, every 202 minutes
de bruyne - 38, 99.5 minutes
maddison - 31, 116 minutes
mount - 25, 153 minutes
odegaard - 25, 173 minutes
last 2 years
pogba - 18, 180 minutes
this bizarre myth of bruno's "phenonemal productivity" really needs to die a death, it hasn't been true since his first 6 months at the club, but for some reason people persist in this "we can live with him giving the ball away when he is this productive" argument.
but forget about best in league/world, he's not even keeping up with mason mount.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He had 28 goals and 17 assists in 20/21.
His downturn in output like other attackers in the side took a serious downturn coinciding with Ronaldo joining.
Since Ronaldo has left he has started scoring again.
As I said he’s not perfect and I think a decision will have to be made on him but judging him solely from the start of last season is flawed.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He had 28 goals and 17 assists in 20/21.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just under half - 13 of 28 - of his goals were from the penalty spot. in the league alone he had, stripping out penalties, 9 goals and 11 assists, 20 total involvements, one every 155 minutes, ie looking at the 4 players i compared him with above, good enough to lift him from 5th to 4th in terms of involvement per 90 minutes.
as for the claim that "there are very few players in any position who have as many goal involvements", i don't know where to begin. the guy is never injured, which is great, but his productivity isn't anywhere near the level people seem to think it is.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, many did not say that about Shaw at CB. Don't be melodramatic. I didn't think I'd need to explain this. Sancho is struggling on the flank where there's more space. He can't beat a man and loses the ball in tight spaces. What's he gonna do at AM? Thread some through balls through to Rashy?
posted on 28/1/23
Sancho would need to get a lot better off the ball to play in that position. He needs to anyway just to play on the wing for us.
posted on 28/1/23
DDD if you look at stats like chances created, Bruno has been right up there with the best players - ahead of De Bruyne, even in the collectively catastrophic 21-22 season, where he was second only to TTA in the PL.
Anyway, we can quibble about which stats are most relevant, or what's the most appropriate time frame for the stats to give the most accurate picture. Meanwhile, we can probably agree that replacing him with someone who helps us control possession better / loses the ball less, either means having a player who contributes fewer goals and assists (because he takes fewer risks) or is a world class that is very hard to find / afford. My sense is that we're not yet the well oiled machine with multiple goal threats which means we can comfortably do without Bruno. But I do think it makes sense for us to start building a side that isn't reliant on him, which means a new CF and grooming an understudy to Bruno who is less of a maverick.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, many did not say that about Shaw at CB. Don't be melodramatic. I didn't think I'd need to explain this. Sancho is struggling on the flank where there's more space. He can't beat a man and loses the ball in tight spaces. What's he gonna do at AM? Thread some through balls through to Rashy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
except this is not true. Bruno loses the ball far more than Sancho does.
posted on 28/1/23
Bruno offers far more as an overall package in the number 10 position than Sancho would. That Sancho has better ball retention isn’t all that important when weighed up against that.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sancho cannot play AM IMO. Sounds like a ridiculous suggestion to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure many said the same about Shaw at CB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, many did not say that about Shaw at CB. Don't be melodramatic. I didn't think I'd need to explain this. Sancho is struggling on the flank where there's more space. He can't beat a man and loses the ball in tight spaces. What's he gonna do at AM? Thread some through balls through to Rashy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
except this is not true. Bruno loses the ball far more than Sancho does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because Bruno plays centrally is is a different player with a different role in the team.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by Lisandro The King Martinez (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
Bruno offers far more as an overall package in the number 10 position than Sancho would. That Sancho has better ball retention isn’t all that important when weighed up against that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He doesn't. How do you account for role in the team when calculating ball retention?
I mean, VVD has better ball retention that Thiago. Maybe Liverpool should play VVD in attacking midfield then.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
I mean, VVD has better ball retention that Thiago. Maybe Liverpool should play VVD in attacking midfield then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season they both have 5 assists in all competitions, so not a bad idea.
posted on 28/1/23
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by No Love - Let me see you go low low low (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
I mean, VVD has better ball retention that Thiago. Maybe Liverpool should play VVD in attacking midfield then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
since the beginning of last season they both have 5 assists in all competitions, so not a bad idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Assists you say?
OK. Since both have 5 assists, that means you can go ahead and play Sancho in AM.
Page 1 of 1