I don't think he trusts enough of the players outside the core 14 or so. That's the problem.
Hopefully after a few more windows he will.
He might find that he needs to rotate more in the PL. If games are tougher/the league is more competitive and the players have to put more into each game, it stands to reason that they will need more rests.
He seems to be taking a no nonsense no risk approach to games and fielding the team he thinks is most likely to win. I think he's doing the right thing. If it goes wrong then yeah hindsight is a thing but so far we're continuing to pick up points and get wins. Rotation does not necessarily get wins in the long run either
I think he has been over cautious in the recent cup games, but I can see his thinking. He knows winning silverware would be a huge weight off the club's shoulders and also wants to create a winning mentality with the core players.
The problem with the lack of rotation is that it works until it doesn't... The players will get tired and are more prone to injury, then one gets injured and the squad players are not up to speed.
It’s great until we lose key players to injury / fatigue, which will then be dismissed by some as part and parcel of the game / hindsight.
We've played 33 games this season and apart from Bruno and Eriksen no other player has started more than 75% of our games. I'm not counting De Gea in this obviously.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we're looking too much into this and the club know what they're doing?
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
We've played 33 games this season and apart from Bruno and Eriksen no other player has started more than 75% of our games. I'm not counting De Gea in this obviously.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we're looking too much into this and the club know what they're doing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You could be right there Diafol.
The only player I think he's "overplayed" is Eriksen. For me, Fredcase should have had more games. He's had to deal with injuries/illnesses etc for Varane, Dalot, Antony, Sancho, Martial... This obviously limits choice. He's managed to bring in Garnacho with what seems just about the right amount of game-time.
A few individual games I might have rotated a bit more; however, if we'd lost, it would have backfired.
It's great if it wins us trophies. He does rest players, Varane and Martinez recently, and Antony. Plus many times a player does not play 90 minutes.
Martial needs mintes rather than resting at the moment.
I wish Ole had done with Rashford what eth has done with Sancho.
Also players are different, some will thrive on playing most games, some not.
I trust him to find the right balance. There will be less pressure if we win the League Cup
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 seconds ago
It's great if it wins us trophies. He does rest players, Varane and Martinez recently, and Antony. Plus many times a player does not play 90 minutes.
Martial needs mintes rather than resting at the moment.
I wish Ole had done with Rashford what eth has done with Sancho.
Also players are different, some will thrive on playing most games, some not.
I trust him to find the right balance. There will be less pressure if we win the League Cup
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I partially agree on Ole, he certainly didn't have the options that ETH now has.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 seconds ago
It's great if it wins us trophies. He does rest players, Varane and Martinez recently, and Antony. Plus many times a player does not play 90 minutes.
Martial needs mintes rather than resting at the moment.
I wish Ole had done with Rashford what eth has done with Sancho.
Also players are different, some will thrive on playing most games, some not.
I trust him to find the right balance. There will be less pressure if we win the League Cup
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I partially agree on Ole, he certainly didn't have the options that ETH now has.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He had pretty good options for a while. I know Donny hasn't worked out, but there seemed no effort to try and get him to fill in for Bruno in certain games when we first got him and Bruno was playing a lot.
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought through whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 1 minute ago
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought throlugh whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was still a fair amount of rotation though. Four top strikers, plus the likes of Butt, Blomqvist, Cruyff, Berg, May etc as squad players.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
We've played 33 games this season and apart from Bruno and Eriksen no other player has started more than 75% of our games. I'm not counting De Gea in this obviously.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we're looking too much into this and the club know what they're doing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You could be right there Diafol.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the main reason a manager would rotate is to keep his whole squad happy. If he had more faith in two or three more members of the squad I'm certain he'd have played them. We'll only really know at the end of the season.
Hopefully, next season we'l see some of the players EtH doesn't fancy sold/released with some new players brought in.
Playing fantasy football here for a bit midfield options of Casemiro, De Jong, Eriksen, Fred and Sabitzer (selling VDB and McT) would be pretty solid as would Kane and Weghorst (selling Martial). I'm sure we'd see more rotation then.
comment by Clockwork Red: With or Wout You (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 1 minute ago
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought throlugh whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was still a fair amount of rotation though. Four top strikers, plus the likes of Butt, Blomqvist, Cruyff, Berg, May etc as squad players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, but we did play a different system..
apart from Ole and Teddy, how many games do you think the others started?
I know they played a big part in the season, especially the run in, I kinda expect something similar, with McFred, Malacia, Maguire, Sancho now
The amount of minutes played by the club this season is 33 x 90 = 2970.
This link tells you how many minutes each player has played:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/leistungsdaten/verein/985
Going by that at least there should be plenty of football left in their legs. I know that's not 100% scientific of course but gives a good indication.
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Clockwork Red: With or Wout You (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 1 minute ago
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought throlugh whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was still a fair amount of rotation though. Four top strikers, plus the likes of Butt, Blomqvist, Cruyff, Berg, May etc as squad players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, but we did play a different system..
apart from Ole and Teddy, how many games do you think the others started?
I know they played a big part in the season, especially the run in, I kinda expect something similar, with McFred, Malacia, Maguire, Sancho now
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Berg played a fair bit alongside Stam, though Johnsen was probably first-choice? I'm sure Blomqvist got a lot of minutes as well. We bought him largely because Giggs had missed half the previous season and we'd lacked the cover. Butt probably played a lot as well.
If we lose to Barca we probably won't end up playing many games more, if any, than our main rivals will.
Injuries can happen at any time. You can't 100% protect players sadly as they could pull a hammy in a warm up or training.
ETH has said Sabitzer could start tomorrow
Pointless to compare how squads are used now to over 20 years ago.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 minute ago
Pointless to compare how squads are used now to over 20 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I wasn't meaning to at all. Just picking up on Stringer's point that despite there being a first XI in 1999 there was definitely a squad used a lot around it. We couldn't have dealt with two semis (one replay, one second leg) without that.
Oh yeah, I think we were quite rare at the time for having depth.
Building on the OP's 'cohesion' point, the crux is that in a system where 'automatisms' are key (choreographed collective patterns of movement), the more a group of players does it, the more fluidly, automatically and quickly they perform it. The more you rotate, the less fluent and effective your football is.
As others have pointed out, this is all very well until you lose an important player through over-playing. Moreover, it also means that when you bring in a squad player, the drop off is greater because they have much less experience of these automatisms in real match situations.
I guess it's a trade-off in either direction, and whether you found the right balance will ultimately be influenced by luck (how many injuries do we get?). It may be that ETH will be ready to rotate more when he has greater squad depth.
It does worry me a bit and I was really quite shocked when I saw the strength of the lineup on Wednesday. However, one thing he pointed out post match was the difference that being able to make 5 subs makes. Perhaps that reduces the need to rotate?
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 4 minutes ago
Building on the OP's 'cohesion' point, the crux is that in a system where 'automatisms' are key (choreographed collective patterns of movement), the more a group of players does it, the more fluidly, automatically and quickly they perform it. The more you rotate, the less fluent and effective your football is.
As others have pointed out, this is all very well until you lose an important player through over-playing. Moreover, it also means that when you bring in a squad player, the drop off is greater because they have much less experience of these automatisms in real match situations.
I guess it's a trade-off in either direction, and whether you found the right balance will ultimately be influenced by luck (how many injuries do we get?). It may be that ETH will be ready to rotate more when he has greater squad depth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This!
Sign in if you want to comment
ETH's lack of rotation
Page 1 of 2
posted on 3/2/23
I don't think he trusts enough of the players outside the core 14 or so. That's the problem.
Hopefully after a few more windows he will.
posted on 3/2/23
He might find that he needs to rotate more in the PL. If games are tougher/the league is more competitive and the players have to put more into each game, it stands to reason that they will need more rests.
posted on 3/2/23
He seems to be taking a no nonsense no risk approach to games and fielding the team he thinks is most likely to win. I think he's doing the right thing. If it goes wrong then yeah hindsight is a thing but so far we're continuing to pick up points and get wins. Rotation does not necessarily get wins in the long run either
posted on 3/2/23
I think he has been over cautious in the recent cup games, but I can see his thinking. He knows winning silverware would be a huge weight off the club's shoulders and also wants to create a winning mentality with the core players.
The problem with the lack of rotation is that it works until it doesn't... The players will get tired and are more prone to injury, then one gets injured and the squad players are not up to speed.
posted on 3/2/23
It’s great until we lose key players to injury / fatigue, which will then be dismissed by some as part and parcel of the game / hindsight.
posted on 3/2/23
We've played 33 games this season and apart from Bruno and Eriksen no other player has started more than 75% of our games. I'm not counting De Gea in this obviously.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we're looking too much into this and the club know what they're doing?
posted on 3/2/23
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
We've played 33 games this season and apart from Bruno and Eriksen no other player has started more than 75% of our games. I'm not counting De Gea in this obviously.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we're looking too much into this and the club know what they're doing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You could be right there Diafol.
posted on 3/2/23
The only player I think he's "overplayed" is Eriksen. For me, Fredcase should have had more games. He's had to deal with injuries/illnesses etc for Varane, Dalot, Antony, Sancho, Martial... This obviously limits choice. He's managed to bring in Garnacho with what seems just about the right amount of game-time.
A few individual games I might have rotated a bit more; however, if we'd lost, it would have backfired.
posted on 3/2/23
It's great if it wins us trophies. He does rest players, Varane and Martinez recently, and Antony. Plus many times a player does not play 90 minutes.
Martial needs mintes rather than resting at the moment.
I wish Ole had done with Rashford what eth has done with Sancho.
Also players are different, some will thrive on playing most games, some not.
I trust him to find the right balance. There will be less pressure if we win the League Cup
posted on 3/2/23
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 seconds ago
It's great if it wins us trophies. He does rest players, Varane and Martinez recently, and Antony. Plus many times a player does not play 90 minutes.
Martial needs mintes rather than resting at the moment.
I wish Ole had done with Rashford what eth has done with Sancho.
Also players are different, some will thrive on playing most games, some not.
I trust him to find the right balance. There will be less pressure if we win the League Cup
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I partially agree on Ole, he certainly didn't have the options that ETH now has.
posted on 3/2/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 20 seconds ago
It's great if it wins us trophies. He does rest players, Varane and Martinez recently, and Antony. Plus many times a player does not play 90 minutes.
Martial needs mintes rather than resting at the moment.
I wish Ole had done with Rashford what eth has done with Sancho.
Also players are different, some will thrive on playing most games, some not.
I trust him to find the right balance. There will be less pressure if we win the League Cup
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I partially agree on Ole, he certainly didn't have the options that ETH now has.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He had pretty good options for a while. I know Donny hasn't worked out, but there seemed no effort to try and get him to fill in for Bruno in certain games when we first got him and Bruno was playing a lot.
posted on 3/2/23
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought through whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
posted on 3/2/23
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 1 minute ago
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought throlugh whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was still a fair amount of rotation though. Four top strikers, plus the likes of Butt, Blomqvist, Cruyff, Berg, May etc as squad players.
posted on 3/2/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
We've played 33 games this season and apart from Bruno and Eriksen no other player has started more than 75% of our games. I'm not counting De Gea in this obviously.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we're looking too much into this and the club know what they're doing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You could be right there Diafol.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the main reason a manager would rotate is to keep his whole squad happy. If he had more faith in two or three more members of the squad I'm certain he'd have played them. We'll only really know at the end of the season.
Hopefully, next season we'l see some of the players EtH doesn't fancy sold/released with some new players brought in.
Playing fantasy football here for a bit midfield options of Casemiro, De Jong, Eriksen, Fred and Sabitzer (selling VDB and McT) would be pretty solid as would Kane and Weghorst (selling Martial). I'm sure we'd see more rotation then.
posted on 3/2/23
comment by Clockwork Red: With or Wout You (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 1 minute ago
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought throlugh whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was still a fair amount of rotation though. Four top strikers, plus the likes of Butt, Blomqvist, Cruyff, Berg, May etc as squad players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, but we did play a different system..
apart from Ole and Teddy, how many games do you think the others started?
I know they played a big part in the season, especially the run in, I kinda expect something similar, with McFred, Malacia, Maguire, Sancho now
posted on 3/2/23
The amount of minutes played by the club this season is 33 x 90 = 2970.
This link tells you how many minutes each player has played:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/leistungsdaten/verein/985
Going by that at least there should be plenty of football left in their legs. I know that's not 100% scientific of course but gives a good indication.
posted on 3/2/23
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Clockwork Red: With or Wout You (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by StringerBell (U11749)
posted 1 minute ago
Need to do my research, but SAF did say, especially about the ‘99 squad, that cos of the winning mentality, suddenly little niggles, bruises injuries weren’t a factor.
Nobody wanted to lose a starting place and fought throlugh whatever issues they had, until they couldn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was still a fair amount of rotation though. Four top strikers, plus the likes of Butt, Blomqvist, Cruyff, Berg, May etc as squad players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, but we did play a different system..
apart from Ole and Teddy, how many games do you think the others started?
I know they played a big part in the season, especially the run in, I kinda expect something similar, with McFred, Malacia, Maguire, Sancho now
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Berg played a fair bit alongside Stam, though Johnsen was probably first-choice? I'm sure Blomqvist got a lot of minutes as well. We bought him largely because Giggs had missed half the previous season and we'd lacked the cover. Butt probably played a lot as well.
posted on 3/2/23
If we lose to Barca we probably won't end up playing many games more, if any, than our main rivals will.
Injuries can happen at any time. You can't 100% protect players sadly as they could pull a hammy in a warm up or training.
posted on 3/2/23
ETH has said Sabitzer could start tomorrow
posted on 3/2/23
Pointless to compare how squads are used now to over 20 years ago.
posted on 3/2/23
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 minute ago
Pointless to compare how squads are used now to over 20 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I wasn't meaning to at all. Just picking up on Stringer's point that despite there being a first XI in 1999 there was definitely a squad used a lot around it. We couldn't have dealt with two semis (one replay, one second leg) without that.
posted on 3/2/23
Oh yeah, I think we were quite rare at the time for having depth.
posted on 3/2/23
Building on the OP's 'cohesion' point, the crux is that in a system where 'automatisms' are key (choreographed collective patterns of movement), the more a group of players does it, the more fluidly, automatically and quickly they perform it. The more you rotate, the less fluent and effective your football is.
As others have pointed out, this is all very well until you lose an important player through over-playing. Moreover, it also means that when you bring in a squad player, the drop off is greater because they have much less experience of these automatisms in real match situations.
I guess it's a trade-off in either direction, and whether you found the right balance will ultimately be influenced by luck (how many injuries do we get?). It may be that ETH will be ready to rotate more when he has greater squad depth.
posted on 3/2/23
It does worry me a bit and I was really quite shocked when I saw the strength of the lineup on Wednesday. However, one thing he pointed out post match was the difference that being able to make 5 subs makes. Perhaps that reduces the need to rotate?
posted on 3/2/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 4 minutes ago
Building on the OP's 'cohesion' point, the crux is that in a system where 'automatisms' are key (choreographed collective patterns of movement), the more a group of players does it, the more fluidly, automatically and quickly they perform it. The more you rotate, the less fluent and effective your football is.
As others have pointed out, this is all very well until you lose an important player through over-playing. Moreover, it also means that when you bring in a squad player, the drop off is greater because they have much less experience of these automatisms in real match situations.
I guess it's a trade-off in either direction, and whether you found the right balance will ultimately be influenced by luck (how many injuries do we get?). It may be that ETH will be ready to rotate more when he has greater squad depth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This!
Page 1 of 2