comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 7 hours, 48 minutes ago
comment by ChampionsofMediocrity (U22902)
posted 35 minutes ago
Americans are the biggest war mongerers in the world and the biggest evil. Putin, ISIS, Taliban are nothing in front of them. Only an American puppet state like UK can say otherwise
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think the USA is worse than Russia, ISIS and the Taliban then you really do need to go and give your head a wobble.
And no, I don’t think the USA are angels on the world stage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember when american sanctions starved half a million iraqi children to death. And Albright then said it was worth it
comment by Ten Hag Bald is Best Ball at its Facking Finest (U17054)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Marry me Alissa White-Gluz (U22716)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
Many US journalists have indicated they think the US sabotaged the pipeline.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are these figures from the giant infotainment industry, are they citing Hersh's article alone, or have they conducted their own investigations and revealed new evidence? If you've come across any of the latter, I'd be interested to read it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn’t honestly make any, I know Rucker Carlson said something to this affect not king after the incident, and I’ve heard a couple of other republicans hint at the idea.
Also read a few ex Navy Seals on podcasts say it’s totally possible, and not unlikely.
I believe it’s all based on anonymous sources, so who knows? I don’t trust too much I read on these sorts of things, it’s war, all parties will be up to shenanigans and pushing their propaganda.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You do realise that Tucker Carlson is about as reliable as Hafi?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you hear about the various messages sent by Tucker and Hannity that came out of the recent Dominion Voting Systems disclosures, Robb?
Both of them openly talking about how they and Fox News were lying to their viewers
Whilst Carlson and Hannity were repeating stories about voter fraud after the election on a daily basis, they were texting off camera about how the same claims they were endlessly restating were “ludicrous” and “off the rails” (both Carlson) and contrived by “F’ing lunatics” (Hannity)
One network vice-president called one of the stories “MIND BLOWINGLY NUTS”.
Grifting waaaankers. Their viewers are too facking stupid to turn on them though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh yes, I’ve been all over this story, will be very interesting to see what comes of it in the Dominion lawsuit. It would seem Fox News are mildly screwed.
A major pipeline was blown up in Europe & there’s been a surprisingly muted reaction from European countries… Little if any calls for investigation and so on. Given the hysterical and all-too-often flatly evidence free characterisation of Russia (anything goes when it comes to unfavourable accusations made about Official Enemies) claims made over the last 7 or 8 years in particular within mainstream discourse, you’d imagine every corporate stenographer at every major news outlet would be all over the pipeline story if there was genuine belief or knowledge that Russia did it. On the other hand, you’d expect something of a radio silence if the US or an ally state carried it out.
I’ve no idea who did it, and whoever it was should (but won’t of course), face consequences for it. As for Hersh… he’s produced superb work previously, and for that will always come under fire from the sorts of people that peddle pro-US foreign policy positions & anti-Russian (or any other Official Enemy state/actor) positions. I obviously can’t vouch for Hersh on this particular story, but he’s infinitely more credible that any of the “I support the latest thing” muppets who use terms like “Russian bot!” or “Putin’s useful idiot!” as a replacement for any actual knowledge of the subjects at hand.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 23 hours, 19 minutes ago
I'd be very interested to read what those who said above that they find the story credible think of the rigorous fact-based response I shared.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup, read it now. A pretty comprehensive beat down of whatever story Hersh presented - which, incidentally, I hadn't read but was rather reporting on from second-hand sources. I had no idea he'd provided so much detail. So, it would seem he's at the very least embellished his story to a point that he's rendered scarcely believable whatever kernel of truth it might have held about an alleged operation.
I tend to veer towards Rosso's idea that, in the absence of further evidence, I must remain sceptical. However, Hersh isn't exactly alone. A fair number of left-wing scholars are highly suspicious of what went down with Nordstream and, much more generally, with the rather two-dimensional mainstream views in the Western media and public opinion.
There are definitely questions worth asking, imo, especially if you've paid the slightest attention to American covert operations and foreign interventions since practically the very beginning of its history as an independent nation, and thereafter, in every era and under every president. Only a couple of days ago I learnt it was a U.S. naval intervention in Japan that ended their two-hundred year isolation from the outer world - way back in the 1850s.
I think Jefferey Sachs' statements in that video sum it up:
"Where's the German media on Nordstream, for example? Here a major piece of infrastructure was blown up, I believe most likely by the United States or the UK, but on the Western side... quiet, silence. When I said this on American television I was immediately cut off but then... by the way all of the circumstantial evidence points in that way... Sweden incredibly says, "Okay, we've investigated, but we're not going to share the results of our investigation with Germany." Members of the Bundestag ask, "We want to know the facts." The German government says, "No, you cannot know the facts, this is a security issue." We're supposed to take this? We we call ourselves democracies? And this is the level of discourse? So the media really, I, I, and I mean... look there's a lot of media and you're part of it and it's great - we're having a wonderful open discussion, and points of view that are very hard to express actually in the mainstream. But this mainstream media has lost its way. I can't tell you how disappointed I am every day in the New York Times."
I don't think these people are all idiots, of the useful brand or otherwise.
itsonlyagame
As per above, I'm not arguing for or against any scenario here. I'm not in the possession of any facts that I'm in a position to verify, and I have next to no knowledge of the machinations of murky state security operations. I was really coming from a point of view of intellectual caution. Reports like this one make a huge splash and are eagerly shared by the ecosystem of committed media personalities and social media bubbles that serve to uncritically amplify any material that reinforces a favoured narrative. This happens on both sides of every polarised issue, of course. Berbaking has pointed out that anyone who makes suggestions of this kind will be accused of being a Russian bot. It's equally true that anyone criticising Russia in the public sphere will attract a similar avalanche branding them a NATO shill or CIA operative, or whatever. We're all guilty of being more receptive of stories that support our world view and being more easily taken in by fake news that seems plausible to us, even when we know there are bad faith propagandists on all sides.
For what it's worth, I can see plausible motivation on the part of either Russia or a Western power in conducting the sabotage. On either part it's an act of symbolic brinkmanship: not actually cutting off gas supplies, but demonstrating the possibility and willingness. I speculate that if the States were involved, then it was done with Germany's blessing. Germany is in a bit of a political bind between its support for Ukraine and its caution about severing relations with Russia too aggressively. This could be a useful act of plausible deniability. For Russia's part, it could be a manifestation of that age-old foreign policy gambit trying to convince the adversary that you are dangerously reckless.
I simply don't know. But also, to be honest, I don't care that much. If a Western power did this, in the context of the war in Ukraine, it doesn't strike me as something to get outraged about. Due to my intimate connection with the region I have followed events in Russia very closely since the 90s, events in Ukraine since Russia's invasions in 2014, and the horrific story of the full-on assault on the country over the past year. We are witnessing a fascistic imperial war of aggression that is systematically targetting residential neighbourhoods and civilian infrastructure, going out of its way to ensure loss of life on a grand scale, and committing atrocities in captured territory, while wiping out the Ukrainian culture and language of the conquered populations.
(By the way, I'm not a reflexive defender of the West, and well aware of the litany of crimes against humanity the US and UK have committed in recent as well as historic memory. Supporting Ukraine against extreme authoritarian colonial aggression just happens not to be one of them.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkQG2PBQ_48
Does China have a point here ?
You decide my friends
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1628799595714076679
Thanks, RR.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I do take exception to this:
"It's equally true that anyone criticising Russia in the public sphere will attract a similar avalanche branding them a NATO shill or CIA operative, We're all guilty of being more receptive of stories that support our world view and being more easily taken in by fake news that seems plausible to us, even when we know there are bad faith propagandists on all sides."
That simply isn't true, not in the West. Russia is panned on a daily basis in our mainstream media - not wrongly so, but it just isn't true that anyone criticising Russia is immediately jumped upon in similar fashion to those who question NATO's/the US's intentions. The prevailing media discourse in the Western media is overwhelmingly in favour of the West intervening in Ukraine. There can be no doubt that dissent with regard to those narratives is going to find far fewer outlets willing to provide a platform, or that it will be shut down or smacked down much sooner.
Further muddying of these waters:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/russian-navy-vessel-seen-near-nord-stream-pipelines-days-before-blasts
(Again, I have no view on the identity of the perpetrator and don't think it's a particular outrage, whoever did it, when there is ongoing systematic murder of civilians.)
Sign in if you want to comment
Has Seymour Hersh lost his mind?
Page 2 of 2
posted on 22/2/23
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 7 hours, 48 minutes ago
comment by ChampionsofMediocrity (U22902)
posted 35 minutes ago
Americans are the biggest war mongerers in the world and the biggest evil. Putin, ISIS, Taliban are nothing in front of them. Only an American puppet state like UK can say otherwise
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think the USA is worse than Russia, ISIS and the Taliban then you really do need to go and give your head a wobble.
And no, I don’t think the USA are angels on the world stage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember when american sanctions starved half a million iraqi children to death. And Albright then said it was worth it
posted on 22/2/23
comment by Ten Hag Bald is Best Ball at its Facking Finest (U17054)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Marry me Alissa White-Gluz (U22716)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
Many US journalists have indicated they think the US sabotaged the pipeline.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are these figures from the giant infotainment industry, are they citing Hersh's article alone, or have they conducted their own investigations and revealed new evidence? If you've come across any of the latter, I'd be interested to read it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn’t honestly make any, I know Rucker Carlson said something to this affect not king after the incident, and I’ve heard a couple of other republicans hint at the idea.
Also read a few ex Navy Seals on podcasts say it’s totally possible, and not unlikely.
I believe it’s all based on anonymous sources, so who knows? I don’t trust too much I read on these sorts of things, it’s war, all parties will be up to shenanigans and pushing their propaganda.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You do realise that Tucker Carlson is about as reliable as Hafi?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you hear about the various messages sent by Tucker and Hannity that came out of the recent Dominion Voting Systems disclosures, Robb?
Both of them openly talking about how they and Fox News were lying to their viewers
Whilst Carlson and Hannity were repeating stories about voter fraud after the election on a daily basis, they were texting off camera about how the same claims they were endlessly restating were “ludicrous” and “off the rails” (both Carlson) and contrived by “F’ing lunatics” (Hannity)
One network vice-president called one of the stories “MIND BLOWINGLY NUTS”.
Grifting waaaankers. Their viewers are too facking stupid to turn on them though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh yes, I’ve been all over this story, will be very interesting to see what comes of it in the Dominion lawsuit. It would seem Fox News are mildly screwed.
posted on 23/2/23
A major pipeline was blown up in Europe & there’s been a surprisingly muted reaction from European countries… Little if any calls for investigation and so on. Given the hysterical and all-too-often flatly evidence free characterisation of Russia (anything goes when it comes to unfavourable accusations made about Official Enemies) claims made over the last 7 or 8 years in particular within mainstream discourse, you’d imagine every corporate stenographer at every major news outlet would be all over the pipeline story if there was genuine belief or knowledge that Russia did it. On the other hand, you’d expect something of a radio silence if the US or an ally state carried it out.
I’ve no idea who did it, and whoever it was should (but won’t of course), face consequences for it. As for Hersh… he’s produced superb work previously, and for that will always come under fire from the sorts of people that peddle pro-US foreign policy positions & anti-Russian (or any other Official Enemy state/actor) positions. I obviously can’t vouch for Hersh on this particular story, but he’s infinitely more credible that any of the “I support the latest thing” muppets who use terms like “Russian bot!” or “Putin’s useful idiot!” as a replacement for any actual knowledge of the subjects at hand.
posted on 23/2/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 23 hours, 19 minutes ago
I'd be very interested to read what those who said above that they find the story credible think of the rigorous fact-based response I shared.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup, read it now. A pretty comprehensive beat down of whatever story Hersh presented - which, incidentally, I hadn't read but was rather reporting on from second-hand sources. I had no idea he'd provided so much detail. So, it would seem he's at the very least embellished his story to a point that he's rendered scarcely believable whatever kernel of truth it might have held about an alleged operation.
I tend to veer towards Rosso's idea that, in the absence of further evidence, I must remain sceptical. However, Hersh isn't exactly alone. A fair number of left-wing scholars are highly suspicious of what went down with Nordstream and, much more generally, with the rather two-dimensional mainstream views in the Western media and public opinion.
There are definitely questions worth asking, imo, especially if you've paid the slightest attention to American covert operations and foreign interventions since practically the very beginning of its history as an independent nation, and thereafter, in every era and under every president. Only a couple of days ago I learnt it was a U.S. naval intervention in Japan that ended their two-hundred year isolation from the outer world - way back in the 1850s.
I think Jefferey Sachs' statements in that video sum it up:
"Where's the German media on Nordstream, for example? Here a major piece of infrastructure was blown up, I believe most likely by the United States or the UK, but on the Western side... quiet, silence. When I said this on American television I was immediately cut off but then... by the way all of the circumstantial evidence points in that way... Sweden incredibly says, "Okay, we've investigated, but we're not going to share the results of our investigation with Germany." Members of the Bundestag ask, "We want to know the facts." The German government says, "No, you cannot know the facts, this is a security issue." We're supposed to take this? We we call ourselves democracies? And this is the level of discourse? So the media really, I, I, and I mean... look there's a lot of media and you're part of it and it's great - we're having a wonderful open discussion, and points of view that are very hard to express actually in the mainstream. But this mainstream media has lost its way. I can't tell you how disappointed I am every day in the New York Times."
I don't think these people are all idiots, of the useful brand or otherwise.
posted on 23/2/23
itsonlyagame
As per above, I'm not arguing for or against any scenario here. I'm not in the possession of any facts that I'm in a position to verify, and I have next to no knowledge of the machinations of murky state security operations. I was really coming from a point of view of intellectual caution. Reports like this one make a huge splash and are eagerly shared by the ecosystem of committed media personalities and social media bubbles that serve to uncritically amplify any material that reinforces a favoured narrative. This happens on both sides of every polarised issue, of course. Berbaking has pointed out that anyone who makes suggestions of this kind will be accused of being a Russian bot. It's equally true that anyone criticising Russia in the public sphere will attract a similar avalanche branding them a NATO shill or CIA operative, or whatever. We're all guilty of being more receptive of stories that support our world view and being more easily taken in by fake news that seems plausible to us, even when we know there are bad faith propagandists on all sides.
For what it's worth, I can see plausible motivation on the part of either Russia or a Western power in conducting the sabotage. On either part it's an act of symbolic brinkmanship: not actually cutting off gas supplies, but demonstrating the possibility and willingness. I speculate that if the States were involved, then it was done with Germany's blessing. Germany is in a bit of a political bind between its support for Ukraine and its caution about severing relations with Russia too aggressively. This could be a useful act of plausible deniability. For Russia's part, it could be a manifestation of that age-old foreign policy gambit trying to convince the adversary that you are dangerously reckless.
I simply don't know. But also, to be honest, I don't care that much. If a Western power did this, in the context of the war in Ukraine, it doesn't strike me as something to get outraged about. Due to my intimate connection with the region I have followed events in Russia very closely since the 90s, events in Ukraine since Russia's invasions in 2014, and the horrific story of the full-on assault on the country over the past year. We are witnessing a fascistic imperial war of aggression that is systematically targetting residential neighbourhoods and civilian infrastructure, going out of its way to ensure loss of life on a grand scale, and committing atrocities in captured territory, while wiping out the Ukrainian culture and language of the conquered populations.
(By the way, I'm not a reflexive defender of the West, and well aware of the litany of crimes against humanity the US and UK have committed in recent as well as historic memory. Supporting Ukraine against extreme authoritarian colonial aggression just happens not to be one of them.)
posted on 23/2/23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkQG2PBQ_48
posted on 23/2/23
Does China have a point here ?
You decide my friends
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1628799595714076679
posted on 24/2/23
Thanks, RR.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I do take exception to this:
"It's equally true that anyone criticising Russia in the public sphere will attract a similar avalanche branding them a NATO shill or CIA operative, We're all guilty of being more receptive of stories that support our world view and being more easily taken in by fake news that seems plausible to us, even when we know there are bad faith propagandists on all sides."
That simply isn't true, not in the West. Russia is panned on a daily basis in our mainstream media - not wrongly so, but it just isn't true that anyone criticising Russia is immediately jumped upon in similar fashion to those who question NATO's/the US's intentions. The prevailing media discourse in the Western media is overwhelmingly in favour of the West intervening in Ukraine. There can be no doubt that dissent with regard to those narratives is going to find far fewer outlets willing to provide a platform, or that it will be shut down or smacked down much sooner.
posted on 29/4/23
Further muddying of these waters:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/russian-navy-vessel-seen-near-nord-stream-pipelines-days-before-blasts
(Again, I have no view on the identity of the perpetrator and don't think it's a particular outrage, whoever did it, when there is ongoing systematic murder of civilians.)
Page 2 of 2