With regards to the religious text, see the quote from the Quran below:
"Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.”
=====
This is all nice, but have you looked at Jewish texts? Why the one eye blind?
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 2 minutes ago
The same reason why Jews were wiped out from all Arab countries. This is clearly stated in their religious texts. Something they don't like to talk about openly.
====
Explain this please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were hundreds of thousand of Jews living in many Arab countries prior to 1948.
Today, only a few are left in Iran - which is not an Arab country. All other Arabian countries have purged the Jews out from their midst.
With regards to the religious text, see the quote from the Quran below:
"Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Make things up again. That’s not the Quran. If you think it is provide the Surah and ayah number. Again, showing your ignorance. It’s idiots like you that can’t get facts right so worthless having a discussion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sahih Muslim 2922.
Not the Quran but the authentic hadith was providing explanation to a Quranic verse.
Sunah.com has made things very easy to find these days. Go and check it out.
comment by CurrentlyInPoland (U11181)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 2 minutes ago
The same reason why Jews were wiped out from all Arab countries. This is clearly stated in their religious texts. Something they don't like to talk about openly.
====
Explain this please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were hundreds of thousand of Jews living in many Arab countries prior to 1948.
Today, only a few are left in Iran - which is not an Arab country. All other Arabian countries have purged the Jews out from their midst.
With regards to the religious text, see the quote from the Quran below:
"Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The creation of Israel led to it. Iraq for instance, reports by historians say that Zionist groups carried out the bombing. Israel denies this is the case, but they had been caught doing something like this in the Lavon affair (Israel publicly denied any involvement in the incident until 2005, when the surviving agents were awarded certificates of appreciation by Israeli President Moshe Katsav).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for bringing the Lavon affair.
The Lavon affair was a failed Israeli covert operation, codenamed Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the summer of 1954. As part of a false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian-, American-, and British-owned civilian targets: cinemas, libraries, and American educational centers. The bombs were timed to detonate several hours after closing time. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian communists, "unspecified malcontents", or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone.[2] The operation caused no casualties among the population, but led to the deaths of four operatives: two cell members who committed suicide after being captured; and two operatives who were tried, convicted, and executed by the Egyptian authorities.
Reminds me of Operation Northwoods.
Amazing. The truth is out there.
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 39 seconds ago
If someone invaded the UK and I was living in Wales under brutal conditions whereby we are effectively at war. I would not cross the border into England and kill a load of unarmed young people at a music event, no. Absolutely not.
=====
You just created your own hypothetical scenario with a ready answer so as to avoid actually answering the query.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it’s a more accurate hypothetical and I did answer the question. But here’s the difference, no matter what happens to me or my family, I won’t deliberately murder civilians like we saw this last weekend.
Perhaps that’s where you and I differ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you would murder people you thought were enemies, civilians or not. If the Germans had taken over UK and brought their families and livelihoods here, would you care if the victims of your resistance were soldiers or civilians.
I'll leave this now as you'll keep going round in circles when we all know what the deal would be, especially for someone like you who loves the UK and British culture so much.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I wouldn’t deliberately kill civilians. You’re revealing your true self here mate. Rules of engagement exist for a reason.
I’m going to say this one last time because you’re really failing to see the distinction between fighting oppression and what happened over the weekend. Which is a shame because I thought you did fully understand that.
Firing rockets into Israel, indiscriminate clearly going to kill civilians but they don’t have laser guided missiles etc so whilst I’m far from ok with it, I can accept that it’s an attack against oppressors.
Attacking government compounds is fighting against oppressors
Attacking military compounds is fighting against oppressors
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
Storming into peoples’ homes and executing them in their living rooms is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
Parading the dead body of a German tourist, stripping her naked, spitting on her corpse and spitting on it whilst chanting Aalahu Akbar is not fighting oppressors, it’s terrorism.
Israelis urinating on corpses of dead Hamas soldiers is not nationalism, it’s just inhumane disgusting behaviour.
Can you please get this through your thick, obstinate skull?
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
Yes I wouldn’t deliberately kill civilians. You’re revealing your true self here mate. Rules of engagement exist for a reason.
====
Stop being silly. Rules of engagement only apply if both sides respect them. The Germans would be murdering British civilians in schools and hospitals and you're telling me you would still seek out only military personnel in your resistance?
We both know that bullsheet.
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 13 seconds ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Appears like he forgot to take his medicine this morning - sounds very confused. Waffles from one place to the next
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
=====
And bombing schools and hospitals etc which Israel has done many times is what?
Imagine terrorism from a Democratic state that is actually the occupier, not the occupied.
For the record, if Germans took over UK and brought their livelihoods here while killing my cousins and brothers from other mother's then all of them would be fair targets. Even their dogs and cats.
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 54 seconds ago
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
=====
And bombing schools and hospitals etc which Israel has done many times is what?
Imagine terrorism from a Democratic state that is actually the occupier, not the occupied.
For the record, if Germans took over UK and brought their livelihoods here while killing my cousins and brothers from other mother's then all of them would be fair targets. Even their dogs and cats.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deliberately Bombing hospitals and schools is terrorism.
So that is where you and I differ, thank you for confirming. I wouldn’t kill innocent civilians and you would. That’s pretty disgusting to be honest so I’ll think I’ll leave it there with you.
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
All this back and forward is stupid guys. There's literally evils on both sides of this conflict and always has been. Neither of them come out of any of this smelling of roses.
What I will say though is the actions taken by Hamas are pure stupidity. It's a war they can't possibly win and all they have done is ensured that thousands of their own people are going to die needlessly.
The middle east has always been and will forever remain a ticking time bomb.
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 54 seconds ago
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
=====
And bombing schools and hospitals etc which Israel has done many times is what?
Imagine terrorism from a Democratic state that is actually the occupier, not the occupied.
For the record, if Germans took over UK and brought their livelihoods here while killing my cousins and brothers from other mother's then all of them would be fair targets. Even their dogs and cats.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deliberately Bombing hospitals and schools is terrorism.
So that is where you and I differ, thank you for confirming. I wouldn’t kill innocent civilians and you would. That’s pretty disgusting to be honest so I’ll think I’ll leave it there with you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullsheet and you know it.
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith? There is'nt one hadith there are many and not all of them are recognised as being legitimate.
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow - you are an expert on football, Middle East politics and now an Islamic scholar too. Many many talents bro. Are you a heart surgeon too?
Stop talking rubbish.
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow - you are an expert on football, Middle East politics and now an Islamic scholar too. Many many talents bro. Are you a heart surgeon too?
Stop talking rubbish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly doesnt know what he is talking about
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I read about this a lot but the facts are very different.
The culture of the West today is built on the Judaeo Christian principle enshrined in the bible.
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
By their fruits, you shall know them. Look across the world today. How would you rate countries that have followed the European Judaeo Christian model compared to others?
Would you want to live in any of these other countries?
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow - you are an expert on football, Middle East politics and now an Islamic scholar too. Many many talents bro. Are you a heart surgeon too?
Stop talking rubbish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I did Islamic studies at school bro.
Why not address the Hadith about Jew hatred instead of trying the age old trick of discrediting the person.
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 17 seconds ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith? There is'nt one hadith there are many and not all of them are recognised as being legitimate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it keeps happening.
Keep educating him. At some point the penny will drop, we hope.
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I read about this a lot but the facts are very different.
The culture of the West today is built on the Judaeo Christian principle enshrined in the bible.
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
By their fruits, you shall know them. Look across the world today. How would you rate countries that have followed the European Judaeo Christian model compared to others?
Would you want to live in any of these other countries?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say an overwhelming majority of them are poor and doing badly.
Depends on which countries you think have followed the "Judea christian" model. I wouldn't say most are doing well.
Could you be more specific?
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
====
Europe before slavery and colonisation was very different to what people take for granted today.
You can put it all down to religion if you want but that's daft. I think a more reasonable approach would be to put it down to actual economic, political, conquest and military reasons aka as robbing the world blind of it's resources and wealth and bringing it all back home.
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I read about this a lot but the facts are very different.
The culture of the West today is built on the Judaeo Christian principle enshrined in the bible.
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
By their fruits, you shall know them. Look across the world today. How would you rate countries that have followed the European Judaeo Christian model compared to others?
Would you want to live in any of these other countries?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say an overwhelming majority of them are poor and doing badly.
Depends on which countries you think have followed the "Judea christian" model. I wouldn't say most are doing well.
Could you be more specific?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indices like:
Democracy
freedom of speech
accountability of the leadership to the people
universal basic education
separation of the church (could be any religion but same principle) from the state
market driven economy
consumer protection
tolerance of opposing views (including respect to minority rights) etc.,
Most countries who practice these are usually ahead of their peers within the same region.
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 39 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith? There is'nt one hadith there are many and not all of them are recognised as being legitimate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two authentic Hadiths - Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari. The quote I used was from Sahih Muslim.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.
But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.
We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.
Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.
Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).
There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.
I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.
I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.
Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.
You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With respect, you need to read what I've said more carefully.
1. I didn't say there was a settlement that Hamas had agreed to. I said that repeated negotiated settlements have been viable and possible, *including with Hamas*, which is true. They have called for, repeatedly, a long-term ceasefire ("the 50 year truce" in order to allow for negotiations on a two-state settlement. This isn't in dispute.
2. The primary driver of the conflict is Israel and the US. To point out this elementary fact is not to absolve any of the Palestinian political and militant factions over the years of wrong-doing, poor strategy, corruption, or atrocities etc.
3. I said ceasefire agreements had been "overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas". I did not say they had exclusively honoured them or *never* breached them. What I described is correct and extensively documented. You might also want to check the details on the 2008 ceasefire. First of all, the rockets fired from Gaza in the first week of the ceasefire were not from Hamas, but rogue groups within Gaza who were condemned by Hamas. That rocket fire came as a result of Israel refusing to include the West Bank in the ceasefire agreement and carrying out military violence in the WB. Israel also breached the agreement on THE SAME DAY it was made by shooting at fishermen in Gaza, as well as other breaches of the agreement in the first few days and then continued breaches from then on. Hamas honoured the truce for several months, as Israeli officials themselves admitted. The agreement collapsed when Israel entered Gaza after a few months. Again, these are all uncontested, extensively documented facts.
4. The entire world is in support of a settlement. There have been *multiple* chances to agree a settlement, and things even came quite close in Taba, until Israel called it off. Previous offers from Israel were farcical offers that no Palestinian could ever except. The barrier to a settlement is the US & Israel which, again, is extensively documented.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.
But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.
We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.
Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.
Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).
There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.
I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.
I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.
Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.
You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With respect, you need to read what I've said more carefully.
1. I didn't say there was a settlement that Hamas had agreed to. I said that repeated negotiated settlements have been viable and possible, *including with Hamas*, which is true. They have called for, repeatedly, a long-term ceasefire ("the 50 year truce"in order to allow for negotiations on a two-state settlement. This isn't in dispute.
2. The primary driver of the conflict is Israel and the US. To point out this elementary fact is not to absolve any of the Palestinian political and militant factions over the years of wrong-doing, poor strategy, corruption, or atrocities etc.
3. I said ceasefire agreements had been "overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas". I did not say they had exclusively honoured them or *never* breached them. What I described is correct and extensively documented. You might also want to check the details on the 2008 ceasefire. First of all, the rockets fired from Gaza in the first week of the ceasefire were not from Hamas, but rogue groups within Gaza who were condemned by Hamas. That rocket fire came as a result of Israel refusing to include the West Bank in the ceasefire agreement and carrying out military violence in the WB. Israel also breached the agreement on THE SAME DAY it was made by shooting at fishermen in Gaza, as well as other breaches of the agreement in the first few days and then continued breaches from then on. Hamas honoured the truce for several months, as Israeli officials themselves admitted. The agreement collapsed when Israel entered Gaza after a few months. Again, these are all uncontested, extensively documented facts.
4. The entire world is in support of a settlement. There have been *multiple* chances to agree a settlement, and things even came quite close in Taba, until Israel called it off. Previous offers from Israel were farcical offers that no Palestinian could ever except. The barrier to a settlement is the US & Israel which, again, is extensively documented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.
That’s what you said. Who blocked the UN proposal in 1947? It wasn’t the US nor Israel
2. The primary driver of this conflict not being resolved, in my opinion, is the religious extremists on both sides; the zionists & Hamas
3. I said Islamic Jihadists on purpose mate, I know it wasn’t Hamas directly. If you want to claim that Hamas overwhelmingly honours ceasefires whilst Israel repeatedly breaks them then you’re going to have to tally them a little better than you are. 2014 Hamas broke the ceasefire requested by the UN and despite that breach, Israel agreed to extend the ceasefire.
15 July: Israel accepted the ceasefire initiated by Egypt and stopped all fire at 09:00. However, terrorists fired more than 50 rockets at Israeli communities. Only after six hours of continuous rocket attacks did the IDF respond.
17 July: Israel agreed to a five-hour humanitarian ceasefire. The terrorist organizations rejected it and fired rockets, including at the city of Be'er-Sheva.
20 July: Israel approved a two-hour medical/humanitarian window in the area of Shejaiya, following an International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) request. Forty minutes after the ceasefire began, Hamas violated it. Nevertheless, Israel implemented the ceasefire, even extending it for two more hours.
26-27 July: Israel respected an UN-requested humanitarian ceasefire from 08:00-20:00 on Saturday, 26 July. Israel announced its readiness to prolong the ceasefire until midnight, but a few minutes after 20:00, Hamas renewed firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
On the same day (26 July), Hamas announced a 24-hour humanitarian ceasefire, at 14:00. Hamas violated its own ceasefire a short time later. Despite Hamas’ continuous fire, Israel decided to extend the humanitarian ceasefire a second time, from midnight Saturday to midnight Sunday.
28 July: Israel accepted Hamas' request for a ceasefire in honor of the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr. The IDF was instructed to cease military attacks, but Hamas continued to launch rockets at Israel.
30 July: Israel announced a temporary humanitarian ceasefire between 15:00-19:00. A few minutes after the ceasefire began Hamas fired rockets at the southern cities of Ashdod and Ashkelon, as well as other Israeli communities.
1 August: Israel accepted the UN/US proposal for a 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire beginning 8:00 Friday (1 August). Hamas violated the ceasefire an hour-and-a-half later when, at approximately 09:30, an attack was executed against IDF forces. Hamas terrorists, including a suicide attacker, fired at the IDF forces. During the attack, two IDF soldiers were killed by Hamas fire and Israel suspects that Second Lt. Hadar Goldin was kidnapped during the exchange of fire and dragged into a tunnel. (He was declared dead on 3 August based on forensic evidence found in the tunnel).
4 August: Israel authorized a 7-hour humanitarian window in Gaza, from 10:00-17:00. Hamas kept firing rockets throughout the lull.
5-8 August: Israel accepted the Egyptian proposed 72-hour ceasefire, beginning on Tuesday, 5 August at 08:00. Israel had already pulled out all its forces from the Gaza Strip. Prior to its expiration on 8 August, Israel notified Egypt that it accepted a 72-hour extension but the Palestinian delegation was not willing to renew the ceasefire. At approximately 04:30 on Friday, 8 August, two rockets fired from Gaza hit southern Israel, in violation of the ceasefire that was set to expire at 08:00. Terrorists increased the rocket fire immediately after 08:00, injuring a number of Israelis. Israel held its fire for hours, but eventually was forced to react.
10-13 August: A 72-hour ceasefire began at midnight between 10-11 August. Despite the firing of several rockets towards the end of the 72-hour ceasefire at midnight on Tuesday, 13 August, the ceasefire has been extended for five days, until midnight on Monday, 18 August.
19 August: Although the ceasefire was extended for an additional 24 hours, at about 3:30 pm, three rockets fired from Gaza hit Beersheva and Netivot, violating the ceasefire. In response, the IDF struck terrorist targets in Gaza. Throughout the rest of the day, a total of 50 rockets were fired from Gaza, strikingthroughout southern Israel, including a shopping center in the Ashkelon coast region, as well as in Tel Aviv and, shortly before midnight, the Jerusalem area.
4. Farcical? UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338 were farcical?
@ Berba I don’t require you to go through that ludicrously long list with a fine tooth comb and reply. My point was that you were portraying ceasefires being overwhelming honoured by Hamas yet repeatedly broken by Israel. When it’s probably very different to what those words imply.
Israel waaay out of line here
Page 7 of 11
7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11
posted on 10/10/23
With regards to the religious text, see the quote from the Quran below:
"Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.”
=====
This is all nice, but have you looked at Jewish texts? Why the one eye blind?
posted on 10/10/23
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 2 minutes ago
The same reason why Jews were wiped out from all Arab countries. This is clearly stated in their religious texts. Something they don't like to talk about openly.
====
Explain this please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were hundreds of thousand of Jews living in many Arab countries prior to 1948.
Today, only a few are left in Iran - which is not an Arab country. All other Arabian countries have purged the Jews out from their midst.
With regards to the religious text, see the quote from the Quran below:
"Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Make things up again. That’s not the Quran. If you think it is provide the Surah and ayah number. Again, showing your ignorance. It’s idiots like you that can’t get facts right so worthless having a discussion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sahih Muslim 2922.
Not the Quran but the authentic hadith was providing explanation to a Quranic verse.
Sunah.com has made things very easy to find these days. Go and check it out.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by CurrentlyInPoland (U11181)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 2 minutes ago
The same reason why Jews were wiped out from all Arab countries. This is clearly stated in their religious texts. Something they don't like to talk about openly.
====
Explain this please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were hundreds of thousand of Jews living in many Arab countries prior to 1948.
Today, only a few are left in Iran - which is not an Arab country. All other Arabian countries have purged the Jews out from their midst.
With regards to the religious text, see the quote from the Quran below:
"Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The creation of Israel led to it. Iraq for instance, reports by historians say that Zionist groups carried out the bombing. Israel denies this is the case, but they had been caught doing something like this in the Lavon affair (Israel publicly denied any involvement in the incident until 2005, when the surviving agents were awarded certificates of appreciation by Israeli President Moshe Katsav).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for bringing the Lavon affair.
The Lavon affair was a failed Israeli covert operation, codenamed Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the summer of 1954. As part of a false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian-, American-, and British-owned civilian targets: cinemas, libraries, and American educational centers. The bombs were timed to detonate several hours after closing time. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian communists, "unspecified malcontents", or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone.[2] The operation caused no casualties among the population, but led to the deaths of four operatives: two cell members who committed suicide after being captured; and two operatives who were tried, convicted, and executed by the Egyptian authorities.
Reminds me of Operation Northwoods.
Amazing. The truth is out there.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 39 seconds ago
If someone invaded the UK and I was living in Wales under brutal conditions whereby we are effectively at war. I would not cross the border into England and kill a load of unarmed young people at a music event, no. Absolutely not.
=====
You just created your own hypothetical scenario with a ready answer so as to avoid actually answering the query.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it’s a more accurate hypothetical and I did answer the question. But here’s the difference, no matter what happens to me or my family, I won’t deliberately murder civilians like we saw this last weekend.
Perhaps that’s where you and I differ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you would murder people you thought were enemies, civilians or not. If the Germans had taken over UK and brought their families and livelihoods here, would you care if the victims of your resistance were soldiers or civilians.
I'll leave this now as you'll keep going round in circles when we all know what the deal would be, especially for someone like you who loves the UK and British culture so much.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I wouldn’t deliberately kill civilians. You’re revealing your true self here mate. Rules of engagement exist for a reason.
I’m going to say this one last time because you’re really failing to see the distinction between fighting oppression and what happened over the weekend. Which is a shame because I thought you did fully understand that.
Firing rockets into Israel, indiscriminate clearly going to kill civilians but they don’t have laser guided missiles etc so whilst I’m far from ok with it, I can accept that it’s an attack against oppressors.
Attacking government compounds is fighting against oppressors
Attacking military compounds is fighting against oppressors
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
Storming into peoples’ homes and executing them in their living rooms is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
Parading the dead body of a German tourist, stripping her naked, spitting on her corpse and spitting on it whilst chanting Aalahu Akbar is not fighting oppressors, it’s terrorism.
Israelis urinating on corpses of dead Hamas soldiers is not nationalism, it’s just inhumane disgusting behaviour.
Can you please get this through your thick, obstinate skull?
posted on 10/10/23
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
posted on 10/10/23
Yes I wouldn’t deliberately kill civilians. You’re revealing your true self here mate. Rules of engagement exist for a reason.
====
Stop being silly. Rules of engagement only apply if both sides respect them. The Germans would be murdering British civilians in schools and hospitals and you're telling me you would still seek out only military personnel in your resistance?
We both know that bullsheet.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 13 seconds ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Appears like he forgot to take his medicine this morning - sounds very confused. Waffles from one place to the next
posted on 10/10/23
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
=====
And bombing schools and hospitals etc which Israel has done many times is what?
Imagine terrorism from a Democratic state that is actually the occupier, not the occupied.
For the record, if Germans took over UK and brought their livelihoods here while killing my cousins and brothers from other mother's then all of them would be fair targets. Even their dogs and cats.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 54 seconds ago
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
=====
And bombing schools and hospitals etc which Israel has done many times is what?
Imagine terrorism from a Democratic state that is actually the occupier, not the occupied.
For the record, if Germans took over UK and brought their livelihoods here while killing my cousins and brothers from other mother's then all of them would be fair targets. Even their dogs and cats.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deliberately Bombing hospitals and schools is terrorism.
So that is where you and I differ, thank you for confirming. I wouldn’t kill innocent civilians and you would. That’s pretty disgusting to be honest so I’ll think I’ll leave it there with you.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
posted on 10/10/23
All this back and forward is stupid guys. There's literally evils on both sides of this conflict and always has been. Neither of them come out of any of this smelling of roses.
What I will say though is the actions taken by Hamas are pure stupidity. It's a war they can't possibly win and all they have done is ensured that thousands of their own people are going to die needlessly.
The middle east has always been and will forever remain a ticking time bomb.
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 54 seconds ago
Storming a music festival, filled with unarmed young people and murdering hundreds of them with automatic weapons is not fighting oppressors, that’s terrorism.
=====
And bombing schools and hospitals etc which Israel has done many times is what?
Imagine terrorism from a Democratic state that is actually the occupier, not the occupied.
For the record, if Germans took over UK and brought their livelihoods here while killing my cousins and brothers from other mother's then all of them would be fair targets. Even their dogs and cats.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deliberately Bombing hospitals and schools is terrorism.
So that is where you and I differ, thank you for confirming. I wouldn’t kill innocent civilians and you would. That’s pretty disgusting to be honest so I’ll think I’ll leave it there with you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullsheet and you know it.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith? There is'nt one hadith there are many and not all of them are recognised as being legitimate.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow - you are an expert on football, Middle East politics and now an Islamic scholar too. Many many talents bro. Are you a heart surgeon too?
Stop talking rubbish.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow - you are an expert on football, Middle East politics and now an Islamic scholar too. Many many talents bro. Are you a heart surgeon too?
Stop talking rubbish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly doesnt know what he is talking about
posted on 10/10/23
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I read about this a lot but the facts are very different.
The culture of the West today is built on the Judaeo Christian principle enshrined in the bible.
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
By their fruits, you shall know them. Look across the world today. How would you rate countries that have followed the European Judaeo Christian model compared to others?
Would you want to live in any of these other countries?
posted on 10/10/23
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow - you are an expert on football, Middle East politics and now an Islamic scholar too. Many many talents bro. Are you a heart surgeon too?
Stop talking rubbish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I did Islamic studies at school bro.
Why not address the Hadith about Jew hatred instead of trying the age old trick of discrediting the person.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 17 seconds ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith? There is'nt one hadith there are many and not all of them are recognised as being legitimate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it keeps happening.
Keep educating him. At some point the penny will drop, we hope.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I read about this a lot but the facts are very different.
The culture of the West today is built on the Judaeo Christian principle enshrined in the bible.
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
By their fruits, you shall know them. Look across the world today. How would you rate countries that have followed the European Judaeo Christian model compared to others?
Would you want to live in any of these other countries?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say an overwhelming majority of them are poor and doing badly.
Depends on which countries you think have followed the "Judea christian" model. I wouldn't say most are doing well.
Could you be more specific?
posted on 10/10/23
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
====
Europe before slavery and colonisation was very different to what people take for granted today.
You can put it all down to religion if you want but that's daft. I think a more reasonable approach would be to put it down to actual economic, political, conquest and military reasons aka as robbing the world blind of it's resources and wealth and bringing it all back home.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
Also all religions are dumb and all made up in my eyes. There is no one true god or any god for that matter. It's brainwashing on a national and global scale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I read about this a lot but the facts are very different.
The culture of the West today is built on the Judaeo Christian principle enshrined in the bible.
Europe before Christianity was very different to what people now take for granted today.
By their fruits, you shall know them. Look across the world today. How would you rate countries that have followed the European Judaeo Christian model compared to others?
Would you want to live in any of these other countries?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say an overwhelming majority of them are poor and doing badly.
Depends on which countries you think have followed the "Judea christian" model. I wouldn't say most are doing well.
Could you be more specific?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indices like:
Democracy
freedom of speech
accountability of the leadership to the people
universal basic education
separation of the church (could be any religion but same principle) from the state
market driven economy
consumer protection
tolerance of opposing views (including respect to minority rights) etc.,
Most countries who practice these are usually ahead of their peers within the same region.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 39 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 1 minute ago
So now it's Hadith and not Quran?
Mancini, are you noticing a trend here?
When queried and researched, almost everything you've said turns into bullsheet.
Alarm bells should be going off in your head right about now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice any trend. It's standard practice to deny the Hadith when it's not comfortable. The reality though is very different.
The Hadith is very significant in the daily lives of the average Muslim.
For example, praying 5 times a day, the Shahada and most of Islamic law and jurisprudence comes from the Hadith. If the deny the Hadith, then you deny most of Islamic practices today.
Although, I do understand that there is a small minority of Muslims who refer to themselves as "Quran only" Muslims. They do this for a reason don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith? There is'nt one hadith there are many and not all of them are recognised as being legitimate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two authentic Hadiths - Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari. The quote I used was from Sahih Muslim.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.
But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.
We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.
Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.
Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).
There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.
I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.
I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.
Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.
You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With respect, you need to read what I've said more carefully.
1. I didn't say there was a settlement that Hamas had agreed to. I said that repeated negotiated settlements have been viable and possible, *including with Hamas*, which is true. They have called for, repeatedly, a long-term ceasefire ("the 50 year truce" in order to allow for negotiations on a two-state settlement. This isn't in dispute.
2. The primary driver of the conflict is Israel and the US. To point out this elementary fact is not to absolve any of the Palestinian political and militant factions over the years of wrong-doing, poor strategy, corruption, or atrocities etc.
3. I said ceasefire agreements had been "overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas". I did not say they had exclusively honoured them or *never* breached them. What I described is correct and extensively documented. You might also want to check the details on the 2008 ceasefire. First of all, the rockets fired from Gaza in the first week of the ceasefire were not from Hamas, but rogue groups within Gaza who were condemned by Hamas. That rocket fire came as a result of Israel refusing to include the West Bank in the ceasefire agreement and carrying out military violence in the WB. Israel also breached the agreement on THE SAME DAY it was made by shooting at fishermen in Gaza, as well as other breaches of the agreement in the first few days and then continued breaches from then on. Hamas honoured the truce for several months, as Israeli officials themselves admitted. The agreement collapsed when Israel entered Gaza after a few months. Again, these are all uncontested, extensively documented facts.
4. The entire world is in support of a settlement. There have been *multiple* chances to agree a settlement, and things even came quite close in Taba, until Israel called it off. Previous offers from Israel were farcical offers that no Palestinian could ever except. The barrier to a settlement is the US & Israel which, again, is extensively documented.
posted on 10/10/23
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
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Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
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Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.
But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
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Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.
We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.
Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.
Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).
There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.
I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
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I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.
I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.
Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.
You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.
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With respect, you need to read what I've said more carefully.
1. I didn't say there was a settlement that Hamas had agreed to. I said that repeated negotiated settlements have been viable and possible, *including with Hamas*, which is true. They have called for, repeatedly, a long-term ceasefire ("the 50 year truce"in order to allow for negotiations on a two-state settlement. This isn't in dispute.
2. The primary driver of the conflict is Israel and the US. To point out this elementary fact is not to absolve any of the Palestinian political and militant factions over the years of wrong-doing, poor strategy, corruption, or atrocities etc.
3. I said ceasefire agreements had been "overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas". I did not say they had exclusively honoured them or *never* breached them. What I described is correct and extensively documented. You might also want to check the details on the 2008 ceasefire. First of all, the rockets fired from Gaza in the first week of the ceasefire were not from Hamas, but rogue groups within Gaza who were condemned by Hamas. That rocket fire came as a result of Israel refusing to include the West Bank in the ceasefire agreement and carrying out military violence in the WB. Israel also breached the agreement on THE SAME DAY it was made by shooting at fishermen in Gaza, as well as other breaches of the agreement in the first few days and then continued breaches from then on. Hamas honoured the truce for several months, as Israeli officials themselves admitted. The agreement collapsed when Israel entered Gaza after a few months. Again, these are all uncontested, extensively documented facts.
4. The entire world is in support of a settlement. There have been *multiple* chances to agree a settlement, and things even came quite close in Taba, until Israel called it off. Previous offers from Israel were farcical offers that no Palestinian could ever except. The barrier to a settlement is the US & Israel which, again, is extensively documented.
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1. We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.
That’s what you said. Who blocked the UN proposal in 1947? It wasn’t the US nor Israel
2. The primary driver of this conflict not being resolved, in my opinion, is the religious extremists on both sides; the zionists & Hamas
3. I said Islamic Jihadists on purpose mate, I know it wasn’t Hamas directly. If you want to claim that Hamas overwhelmingly honours ceasefires whilst Israel repeatedly breaks them then you’re going to have to tally them a little better than you are. 2014 Hamas broke the ceasefire requested by the UN and despite that breach, Israel agreed to extend the ceasefire.
15 July: Israel accepted the ceasefire initiated by Egypt and stopped all fire at 09:00. However, terrorists fired more than 50 rockets at Israeli communities. Only after six hours of continuous rocket attacks did the IDF respond.
17 July: Israel agreed to a five-hour humanitarian ceasefire. The terrorist organizations rejected it and fired rockets, including at the city of Be'er-Sheva.
20 July: Israel approved a two-hour medical/humanitarian window in the area of Shejaiya, following an International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) request. Forty minutes after the ceasefire began, Hamas violated it. Nevertheless, Israel implemented the ceasefire, even extending it for two more hours.
26-27 July: Israel respected an UN-requested humanitarian ceasefire from 08:00-20:00 on Saturday, 26 July. Israel announced its readiness to prolong the ceasefire until midnight, but a few minutes after 20:00, Hamas renewed firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
On the same day (26 July), Hamas announced a 24-hour humanitarian ceasefire, at 14:00. Hamas violated its own ceasefire a short time later. Despite Hamas’ continuous fire, Israel decided to extend the humanitarian ceasefire a second time, from midnight Saturday to midnight Sunday.
28 July: Israel accepted Hamas' request for a ceasefire in honor of the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr. The IDF was instructed to cease military attacks, but Hamas continued to launch rockets at Israel.
30 July: Israel announced a temporary humanitarian ceasefire between 15:00-19:00. A few minutes after the ceasefire began Hamas fired rockets at the southern cities of Ashdod and Ashkelon, as well as other Israeli communities.
1 August: Israel accepted the UN/US proposal for a 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire beginning 8:00 Friday (1 August). Hamas violated the ceasefire an hour-and-a-half later when, at approximately 09:30, an attack was executed against IDF forces. Hamas terrorists, including a suicide attacker, fired at the IDF forces. During the attack, two IDF soldiers were killed by Hamas fire and Israel suspects that Second Lt. Hadar Goldin was kidnapped during the exchange of fire and dragged into a tunnel. (He was declared dead on 3 August based on forensic evidence found in the tunnel).
4 August: Israel authorized a 7-hour humanitarian window in Gaza, from 10:00-17:00. Hamas kept firing rockets throughout the lull.
5-8 August: Israel accepted the Egyptian proposed 72-hour ceasefire, beginning on Tuesday, 5 August at 08:00. Israel had already pulled out all its forces from the Gaza Strip. Prior to its expiration on 8 August, Israel notified Egypt that it accepted a 72-hour extension but the Palestinian delegation was not willing to renew the ceasefire. At approximately 04:30 on Friday, 8 August, two rockets fired from Gaza hit southern Israel, in violation of the ceasefire that was set to expire at 08:00. Terrorists increased the rocket fire immediately after 08:00, injuring a number of Israelis. Israel held its fire for hours, but eventually was forced to react.
10-13 August: A 72-hour ceasefire began at midnight between 10-11 August. Despite the firing of several rockets towards the end of the 72-hour ceasefire at midnight on Tuesday, 13 August, the ceasefire has been extended for five days, until midnight on Monday, 18 August.
19 August: Although the ceasefire was extended for an additional 24 hours, at about 3:30 pm, three rockets fired from Gaza hit Beersheva and Netivot, violating the ceasefire. In response, the IDF struck terrorist targets in Gaza. Throughout the rest of the day, a total of 50 rockets were fired from Gaza, strikingthroughout southern Israel, including a shopping center in the Ashkelon coast region, as well as in Tel Aviv and, shortly before midnight, the Jerusalem area.
4. Farcical? UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338 were farcical?
posted on 10/10/23
@ Berba I don’t require you to go through that ludicrously long list with a fine tooth comb and reply. My point was that you were portraying ceasefires being overwhelming honoured by Hamas yet repeatedly broken by Israel. When it’s probably very different to what those words imply.
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