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Referees: Have they been left behind?

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posted on 6/12/23

comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 1 minute ago
£40-70k a year for working about 10 hours a week if they do two matches?

Sign me up.
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That's kind of the point. It would attract a higher calibre of candidate. You wouldn't be getting the job. No offence.
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What a stupid comment. I'm a university educated so that probably puts me ahead of some of the refs for starters.

You don't need to be academic either to be good at the job. You need to know the rules, be physically fit, Resilient and have common sense. That lost point rules you out then. 😂

posted on 6/12/23

comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 42 seconds ago
Their pay definitely needs upping as it would surely entice more people actually wanting to be refs, which in theory would increase the talent pool and overall quality.

I feel they're reluctant to drop some refs from the prem these days because few in the lower leagues would actually be an improvement.

It would also ease any corruption fears.
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The grass roots game has a ref crisis - no one wants to do it. A semi decent teenage ref now has a very high chance of reffing professionally

posted on 6/12/23

comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 7 seconds ago
Refs are one of the best features of the game.

they are one of the sources for the most debate, discussion and opinions in the game. it would be a terrible social thing for the game if everything was black and white and nothing up for debate in that regards.

places like 606 would certinaly take a hit I think.
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Doesn't have to be everything. The decisions that are extremely subjective could still be made by humans, to an extent. But if it is possible to eliminate stupid errors then why is that a bad thing? If a ref got a notification on his watch saying that he couldn't restart play because the Liverpool goal was actually onside, then how is that bad? What you are trying to say is that incorrect decisions are part of the game and we should keep as many of them as possible. I am trying to say that we should be trying to eliminate as many wrong decisions as we can.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Striketeam7 - There used to be a football club over there (U18109)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 42 seconds ago
Their pay definitely needs upping as it would surely entice more people actually wanting to be refs, which in theory would increase the talent pool and overall quality.

I feel they're reluctant to drop some refs from the prem these days because few in the lower leagues would actually be an improvement.

It would also ease any corruption fears.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The grass roots game has a ref crisis - no one wants to do it. A semi decent teenage ref now has a very high chance of reffing professionally
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a surprise. It's been a good 10+ years since I gave up playing Sunday league and even then the abuse the refs would get was horrendous.

As much as I find many of the Prem refs crap, I couldn't withstand national criticism and abuse for the sake of circa £50k a year when you can get a similar wage in an office job with none of those negatives.

Double/triple it and you'd probably solve a lot of the ref issues at all levels.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 10 minutes ago
Refs are one of the best features of the game.

they are one of the sources for the most debate, discussion and opinions in the game. it would be a terrible social thing for the game if everything was black and white and nothing up for debate in that regards.

places like 606 would certinaly take a hit I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PrayforBilly - no more “Penited” or “LiVARpool”

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 7 seconds ago
Refs are one of the best features of the game.

they are one of the sources for the most debate, discussion and opinions in the game. it would be a terrible social thing for the game if everything was black and white and nothing up for debate in that regards.

places like 606 would certinaly take a hit I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't have to be everything. The decisions that are extremely subjective could still be made by humans, to an extent. But if it is possible to eliminate stupid errors then why is that a bad thing? If a ref got a notification on his watch saying that he couldn't restart play because the Liverpool goal was actually onside, then how is that bad? What you are trying to say is that incorrect decisions are part of the game and we should keep as many of them as possible. I am trying to say that we should be trying to eliminate as many wrong decisions as we can.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
but isnt that what we are doing just now? thats what the VAR check for offside's and line crosses basically is.

We can never get rid off refs cos technology can fail or glitch and then what cancel the whole game?

No technology and refs need to be brought together. technology can never replace a ref IMO.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - There used to be a football club over there (U18109)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 42 seconds ago
Their pay definitely needs upping as it would surely entice more people actually wanting to be refs, which in theory would increase the talent pool and overall quality.

I feel they're reluctant to drop some refs from the prem these days because few in the lower leagues would actually be an improvement.

It would also ease any corruption fears.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The grass roots game has a ref crisis - no one wants to do it. A semi decent teenage ref now has a very high chance of reffing professionally
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a surprise. It's been a good 10+ years since I gave up playing Sunday league and even then the abuse the refs would get was horrendous.

As much as I find many of the Prem refs crap, I couldn't withstand national criticism and abuse for the sake of circa £50k a year when you can get a similar wage in an office job with none of those negatives.

Double/triple it and you'd probably solve a lot of the ref issues at all levels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed, imagine having everyone call you a donut everytime you made a small error at work, you got 99% right but gave a corner instead of a goal kick, didn’t allow play on, etc

Not just national scrutiny, but you could get dropped from your job because you have a 1% error rate. Some manager demands you never ref their games again, another says you never give them decisions - essentially implying you are a cheat.

Assistant refs - that’s the dream ticket these days, you don’t even have to get offside right because VAR will check that for you. If you get a throw in decision wrong 99.99% of the time it leads to nothing so no one gives a schitt and the only thing you have to really pay attention to is whether it’s a corner or goal kick - unbelievably cushy life in comparison to a ref

posted on 6/12/23

The tech for AI already exists. Video games have been programmed to spot fouls, ball out of play, offsides etc for decades.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Soft to milk (U23092)
posted 8 minutes ago
The tech for AI already exists. Video games have been programmed to spot fouls, ball out of play, offsides etc for decades.
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Who faaacking disputes it though - we just assume that FIFA gets it right, the computer sprites don’t crowd the ref calling him a blind khunt.

It will be the more subjective decisions that it will struggle with anyway - like when to use the play on, advantage ruling or determining whether the defender was intending to get the ball in a DOGSO situation.

AI could absolutely make the vast majority of decisions for a ref though and should have already made the linesman’s job redundant at the top level.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Soft to milk (U23092)
posted 7 minutes ago
The tech for AI already exists. Video games have been programmed to spot fouls, ball out of play, offsides etc for decades.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but you'd need all the sensors and cameras etc to make it work in real life. They are doing it now with automated offsides in the CL and World cup and works great. One of the issues is the time pressure on officials to make a decision and they end up rushing lines on a screen, panicking and making a decision in haste. It can now be done instantly.

Would people be against the same being used for throw ins and corners? It would also be able to tell who the ball came off last? It would make these difficult to see things factual and make the ref and linesman's jobs easier. I say linesman's job....he wouldn't have one.

Let's start with the easily solvable ones and work from there.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Soft to milk (U23092)
posted 7 minutes ago
The tech for AI already exists. Video games have been programmed to spot fouls, ball out of play, offsides etc for decades.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but you'd need all the sensors and cameras etc to make it work in real life. They are doing it now with automated offsides in the CL and World cup and works great. One of the issues is the time pressure on officials to make a decision and they end up rushing lines on a screen, panicking and making a decision in haste. It can now be done instantly.

Would people be against the same being used for throw ins and corners? It would also be able to tell who the ball came off last? It would make these difficult to see things factual and make the ref and linesman's jobs easier. I say linesman's job....he wouldn't have one.

Let's start with the easily solvable ones and work from there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly, start with the linos - the Tech exists now to tell who a ball touched last, did it go off for a throw or a corner, was it off side. Replace the Lino’s first and then see what innovations can be achieved for the ref. I do t think you will ever fully get rid of the ref, there needs to be someone impartial on the pitch - but you can automate 80% of their decisions comfortably

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Striketeam7 - There used to be a football club over there (U18109)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Soft to milk (U23092)
posted 7 minutes ago
The tech for AI already exists. Video games have been programmed to spot fouls, ball out of play, offsides etc for decades.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but you'd need all the sensors and cameras etc to make it work in real life. They are doing it now with automated offsides in the CL and World cup and works great. One of the issues is the time pressure on officials to make a decision and they end up rushing lines on a screen, panicking and making a decision in haste. It can now be done instantly.

Would people be against the same being used for throw ins and corners? It would also be able to tell who the ball came off last? It would make these difficult to see things factual and make the ref and linesman's jobs easier. I say linesman's job....he wouldn't have one.

Let's start with the easily solvable ones and work from there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly, start with the linos - the Tech exists now to tell who a ball touched last, did it go off for a throw or a corner, was it off side. Replace the Lino’s first and then see what innovations can be achieved for the ref. I do t think you will ever fully get rid of the ref, there needs to be someone impartial on the pitch - but you can automate 80% of their decisions comfortably
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah that's what I was saying earlier. He is on the pitch controlling the match in the same way but the majority of decisions are made for him and he gets a notification on his watch and just enforces them. It would give him a lot more time to concentrate on issues that do involve his input. Managing conflicts between players etc. Having control of the game in this way.

comment by #4zA (U22472)

posted on 6/12/23

I think the players shud referee themselves

It work in the banking industry

posted on 6/12/23

I think more decisions should be taken away from refs yes.

But it doesn't really help refs when at the moment it feels as if almost every summer some of the rules change causing more confusion.

By now there should be 0 reason to keep tweaking the offside rules each year.
By now the debate on what is offside and what is not should be a thing of the past.
Investment should be going into tech to allow for tech to decide what is offside and what's not and it'll get it right almost 99% of the time. (Provided the rules on what's offside and what's not stops changing)
Right now it feels like refs get offside decisions right about 70% of the time. Not good enough!

Refs should continue to make calls on fouls, and need more training/experience in working together with VAR humans to get decisions on fouls made quickly and effectively (currently they do not).

But almost everything else, tech should do it. That includes, goals, offsides, corners, throw ins.

The PL has just agreed a 6. Something billion quid deal with Sky and TNT, chuck 500 million of that in to tech in the PL and it'd be a revolution

posted on 6/12/23

Oh and handball decisions, humans for now I guess

posted on 6/12/23

How about the AI tech is used to assist the ref instead of make the decision for them? So if there is a handball in the box, AI can instantly give the ref some information such as a percentage confidence that it is a pen based on things like arm height, how often this is given before, speed of ball, reaction time etc. It could work all of these things out pretty much instantly which is what VAR spends about 5 minutes trying to analyse themselves. Like video tech in cricket tells you if it was in line, hitting the stumps etc. Ultra edge to tell you if bat was involved.

AI would account for real time play as well. The absolute worst thing about VAR is slow motion replays for making decisions. Football is not played in slow motion, apart from under Ten Hag.

comment by BO$$™ (U6401)

posted on 6/12/23

Players spend 90+ minutes moaning, complaining and cheating and when the ref gets something wrong it's all on them.

The absolute worst for me is players who know they have kicked it last for a throw in or corner yet appeal to the referees sometime even shouting abuse and when the ref or lino get a call wrong they go on a bigger warpath. Even the commentary team usually make a big deal of them getting it wrong but don't say anything about the 15 times the players tried to con the referees.

posted on 6/12/23

Several things currently wrong football:

Interference by IFAB, who seem to think that everything needs fixing when in fact little is actually broken.
The game is now being refereed by people not actually on the pitch. VAR means Video Assistant Referee, with the emphasis on assistance.
There should be only replays for the referee in “real time” and definitely not in slow motion which makes things look worse than they actually are.
If IFAB were in need of something to do, then it should come out and outlaw the ridiculous scrummaging that occurs whenever a corner or free kick is taken. Referees should be told to give penalties/free kicks plus bookings if someone pulls someone down in the box. 99% of these incidents are ignored and they have no place in football in my opinion🤔

The offside law needs to be changed back to what it used to be, if any part of your body is level with defender then you are onside, there should be clear space between defender and attacker for offside to be given. This would get rid of 99% of the arguments about whether it was or wasn’t his left nostril that put him offside.

Only the captain should be allowed to approach the referee, anyone else doing it then an automatic card.
As for payment, Spanish referees get double what English referees get paid, yet it is the PL which is the most attractive television worldwide.

I think referees should be on a minimum £100,000 per year plus expenses, transportation and hotel costs paid for by the home club.
They used to have a choice in the FA Cup final, a fee or a medal but not both🤯

Going back to AI, I think referees are essential to the game. VAR has created monster problems, there is no VAR in the Championship and there is also little or no disputing decisions by players.

posted on 6/12/23

comment by BO$$™ (U6401)
posted 19 minutes ago
Players spend 90+ minutes moaning, complaining and cheating and when the ref gets something wrong it's all on them.

The absolute worst for me is players who know they have kicked it last for a throw in or corner yet appeal to the referees sometime even shouting abuse and when the ref or lino get a call wrong they go on a bigger warpath. Even the commentary team usually make a big deal of them getting it wrong but don't say anything about the 15 times the players tried to con the referees.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
every single player in the game cheats and tries to dupe the refs. never seen a single honest pro player in my life.

comment by #4zA (U22472)

posted on 6/12/23

comment by GeniusGreaves (U1302)
posted 40 seconds ago
Several things currently wrong football:

Interference by IFAB, who seem to think that everything needs fixing when in fact little is actually broken.
The game is now being refereed by people not actually on the pitch. VAR means Video Assistant Referee, with the emphasis on assistance.
There should be only replays for the referee in “real time” and definitely not in slow motion which makes things look worse than they actually are.
If IFAB were in need of something to do, then it should come out and outlaw the ridiculous scrummaging that occurs whenever a corner or free kick is taken. Referees should be told to give penalties/free kicks plus bookings if someone pulls someone down in the box. 99% of these incidents are ignored and they have no place in football in my opinion🤔

The offside law needs to be changed back to what it used to be, if any part of your body is level with defender then you are onside, there should be clear space between defender and attacker for offside to be given. This would get rid of 99% of the arguments about whether it was or wasn’t his left nostril that put him offside.

Only the captain should be allowed to approach the referee, anyone else doing it then an automaticcard.
As for payment, Spanish referees get double what English referees get paid, yet it is the PL which is the most attractive television worldwide.

I think referees should be on a minimum £100,000 per year plus expenses, transportation and hotel costs paid for by the home club.
They used to have a choice in the FA Cup final, a fee or a medal but not both🤯

Going back to AI, I think referees are essential to the game. VAR has created monster problems, there is no VAR in the Championship and there is also little or no disputing decisions by players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree

Gols bein unoud becuse a pkayer is one inch “offside” then that us contrary too the spirit of the rule

posted on 6/12/23

Why do refs never complain or agitate for better terms?

posted on 6/12/23

comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 40 minutes ago
Why do refs never complain or agitate for better terms?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they would be a massive outlier If they did this as an individual and they do not have a union. Imagine if they called a Boxing Day strike - the league would pay up, but no union so no strike.

Would love to hear from the refs at the end of games. “Yeah let’s talk about the 1 decision I got wrong and not the 100 I got right” “ I didn’t feel my error not to award a free kick in that situation cost xxx team nearly half as much as xxx manager not starting xxx player” “yes that manager called me blind, but I calmly reminded him that he is the speccy 4 eyed khunt not me”

Some of these would shut up about the ref soon enough once they are allowed to dish it out back.

Another initiative at grass roots at the moment is the refs wearing cameras - stop players threatening them f they are on camera and likely to get a hefty fine and a lengthy ban

posted on 6/12/23

Left behind?

Who picked them up, the Liverpool team bus?

posted on 6/12/23

comment by ●Billy The Spur● LEVY OUT- ENIC OUT! (U3924)
posted 2 minutes ago
Left behind?

Who picked them up, the Liverpool team bus?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s LiVARpool Billy

posted on 6/12/23

comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
comment by BO$$™ (U6401)
posted 19 minutes ago
Players spend 90+ minutes moaning, complaining and cheating and when the ref gets something wrong it's all on them.

The absolute worst for me is players who know they have kicked it last for a throw in or corner yet appeal to the referees sometime even shouting abuse and when the ref or lino get a call wrong they go on a bigger warpath. Even the commentary team usually make a big deal of them getting it wrong but don't say anything about the 15 times the players tried to con the referees.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
every single player in the game cheats and tries to dupe the refs. never seen a single honest pro player in my life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do any of them lie and welch on their name change bets like little whiny cry babies?

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