Of course that may just be lip-service from Poch. I sincerely hope that's not the case and what he says publicly actually translates to what he does privately.
Doing nothing is the best course of action in terms of incomings this window.
Sole focus should be on cutting the squad size down further, priorities straight and even If Poch doesn't stay beyond the summer (or current 18 month contract for whatever reason), will leave the next manager with a better fundementally strong settled squad.
Comment Deleted by Article Creator
Name change bet whodumbtit?
Comment Deleted by Article Creator
Grandiose statement<doh.
Luxury thinking, in a league where if you dont compete, you will get left behind, it took Bates, Harding and Roman 50 years to build the legacy that some on here will disregard down to a pompous, naive fantasy football mentality.
"Not to forget the worst case scenario...which is said experienced dud players becoming problematic causing insourmountable issues down the line, blocking younger players development, destroying the dynamics in the process and difficult to shift.
Giving experience meaningful minutes over any younger alternative is a fruitless endeavour in the context of a very visible teardown and rebuild around young players and young signings. Dumb hasty step backwards move.
Pining for experience overlooking that side of things is negligent and quite frankly laughable.
All that gets glossed over but these are very important factors to take into account.
I'll never be one to depict experience players as the silver bullet or north star, be-all and end-all solution to issues, especially after the previous recent history of young academy players spearheading us to achieving goals and success.
Time and patience (rarely afforded by so-called supporters) is what will be most rewarding in the end, firmly believe that."
Seriously Cfc had several elite sides combining a mixture of experience & players in there mid / late 20's.
Have a look at the trophy cabinet, it wasn't filled by putting out sides with an average of 22 yrs old
Oh yeah, lets wait and see how these 5/8 year contracts work out when the kids spit their dummies out on the floors of their multi million pound mansions
Just look at Sancho, Pogba, Lukaku to name but 3!
Mf,can you please elaborate regarding:
"I'll never be one to depict experience players as the silver bullet or north star, be-all and end-all solution to issues, especially after the previous recent history of young academy players spearheading us to achieving goals and success".
We need a striker. I don’t rate Broja. Jackson will only get better but he needs competition.
Don’t get the need and links to another CB. Colwill, Diasi, Badashile, Silva and Chalobah is more then enough this season. Next season when Silva leaves Fofana replaces him.
You must've hated us during the mid-noughties/early 10's? Time after time a clique of experienced players dragging us to honours. That first Champions League win in particular must've been torture for you
Most things in football, and in life, work most efficiently with balance & that's certainly the case with the virtues of youth & experience. There are exceptions of course, like us 15 years ago, but on the whole you need both. United in the 90's are the perfect example of this balance achieved.
It's not youth vs. experience, both need each other! Youth needs the calming hand of experience to manage difficult situations, and experience needs the innovation of youth when things get too comfortable.
very nicely put mate.
Our young players need guidance.
Mf, why do you think Cole Palmer is the player he is?
On Cole Palmer you've served to strengthen my argument that Premier League experience or Premier League proven isn't absolutely essential to flourish...Gametime experience was extremely limited prior to joining but he's thriving due to pathway, platform, environment provided.
The whole peddled rhetoric behind Premier League proven and experience is flawed in any case.
Experience, leadership and becoming proven is gained by playing, which is what will happen with this current young squad in time.
Anyway, my problem doesn't lie with experience per se.
Problem is with playing spent players or buying unmotivated half-arsed middling senior experienced pros on astronomical wages blocking pathways of capable players coming through. Dead weights.
Under Roman, club bought a heap of them that were very far behind in development and capacity (in comparision to the players that we've got within), despite their experience and paid for it dearly in more ways than one...
Content with the different (unprecedented) direction, very looking at the bigger picture and no short-termist approach post-Tuchel (Will pay-off).
Sorely needed shake-up from the stale latter years under Roman.
With the current squad...there's a sense of every player in the squad buying into the process (invested in playing for the club), eager to "earn their stripes" and prove a point.
The "running through brick walls" analogy for the good of the club, type attitude and work ethic seems appropriate for these current group of players.
All-in on one common objective + the added incentive of bumping up their modest (starting) wages during the course of their extensive contracts (or "prison contracts", as some would like to call it). No egos.
You've used some of the worst examples in Lukaku, Pogba and Sancho to prove your point...starting wages + image rights of our players on long contracts aren't remotely comparable to them, for that very reason if any of them were to fall by the wayside or fail to live up to expectations...they'd be easier to offload.
Thank you for your response.
Palmer is currently an exception in the squad, but imo he has without doubt benefited from the experience and quality of players he has developed with.
You avertion to proven experience is illogical imo, i think the issue is with the buying , if we do not profile the players properly, and we settle for numbers 3,4.5 on the managers ideal list of who he wishes to bring in then i think you run the risk of not getting the right players.
Experience, leadership and becoming proven is gained by playing, which is what will happen with this current young squad in time.
Yes this is true, but the younger players need guidance and the benefit of playing with inspirational players, who they respect and can learn their trade from..
"Anyway, my problem doesn't lie with experience per se.
Problem is with playing spent players or buying unmotivated half-arsed middling senior experienced pros on astronomical wages blocking pathways of capable players coming through. Dead weights.
Under Roman, club bought a heap of them that were very far behind in development and capacity (in comparision to the players that we've got within), despite their experience and paid for it dearly in more ways than one."
Well this became the issue in more recent years, post 2017, prior it happened but the quality of the side absorbed it.
But the i think you really have not understood how Roman was running the club.
The first 25 players did feature young talent, but the squad was made up of tried and tested players generally, they in general had enough quality to maintain an elite level of competitiveness.
The academy was in all purpose an income generator to help bridge the gap with finance , supplying pure profit for the maintenance of the clubs elite level competitiveness.
You may not have liked it, clearly, but it worked, look at the trophy cabinet.
Sorely needed shake-up from the stale latter years under Roman.
I do actually agree with you in this point.But where we differ is to what extent, id prefer a more balanced approach , as i believe the EPL is a fast moving highly competitive league, which if you dont stay the pace, you run the risk of getting left behind and coming back is not as simple as it is to let it slip.
"With the current squad...there's a sense of every player in the squad buying into the process (invested in playing for the club), eager to "earn their stripes" and prove a point.
The "running through brick walls" analogy for the good of the club, type attitude and work ethic seems appropriate for these current group of players.
All-in on one common objective + the added incentive of bumping up their modest (starting) wages during the course of their extensive contracts (or "prison contracts", as some would like to call it). No egos."
Well all that sound great, but the reality imo is somewhat different.
Today players donot respect contracts, they have zero loyalty, they may not buy into new managers , as and when they change.
The money on offer is so great, their alignace is to their pocket.
You've used some of the worst examples in Lukaku, Pogba and Sancho to prove your point...starting wages + image rights of our players on long contracts aren't remotely comparable to them, for that very reason if any of them were to fall by the wayside or fail to live up to expectations...they'd be easier to offload.
Well lets look at Tammy, Solanke, H ODio, and so on, much of their issues were around what they were getting paid, they felt they had a sense of entitlement
Easier to offload ? well that maybe, but im watiing to see how that goes, i hope you are right, i do actually feel that the club will have some type of clause, which will benefit both parties if a player wants out, but ? i dont know .
The response is a little rushed, im going to work
On this point.
"Experience, leadership and becoming proven is gained by playing, which is what will happen with this current young squad in time".
Player development is as we know a process, it is not an exact science.
Its is also a luxury in this league, it imo should be balanced, not as we currently have over dependent upon.
As i have on numerous occasions tried to explain, survival and success in this league is based upon competitive edge, without it the club faces a real risk of slipping to such an extent that it may take a decade+ to recover.
Look at Utd, Liverpool & Afc, plus also Tottenham .
Organic development imo should be at the heart ,but not utterly dependent upon.
Players become demotivated also, success and the prospect of is a great tonic, motivator, but when it goes sideways, all the loyalty goes out the window.
The clubs financial position is a contradiction, it has spent 3.5 bln, its dependent upon an increased income stream, whilst the reality it has a diminishing economy.
The smaller the clubs economy ,(the money it turns over) due to the clubs inability to engage in elite competition will in turn reduce the clubs ability to compete.
It simply will not be able to finance it.
You can choose to ignore this or not , but it is the reality
Now if you want an organic growth, but when the club create a cycle where we become a selling / feeder club , its unlikely we will see much silverware, we may live in a cycle of frustration and all that fighting toe to toe will seem a scant comfort, as imo, the players will see the club as a stepping stone.
So i would caution be careful for what you wish
"With the current squad...there's a sense of every player in the squad buying into the process (invested in playing for the club), eager to "earn their stripes" and prove a point.
The "running through brick walls" analogy for the good of the club, type attitude and work ethic seems appropriate for these current group of players.
All-in on one common objective + the added incentive of bumping up their modest (starting) wages during the course of their extensive contracts (or "prison contracts", as some would like to call it). No egos."
Well all that sound great, but the reality imo is somewhat different.
Today players donot respect contracts, they have zero loyalty, they may not buy into new managers , as and when they change.
The money on offer is so great, their alignace is to their pocket.
----------------------------------------------------
Yep, that's a total generalisation from CMF.
Players ultimate allegiance is too themselves, as it should be. Mount would've got plenty of gametime here if he'd stayed, so would Christensen and others going further back (the likes of KDB & Lukaku in 2014), but they sought different challenges. Youth doesn't equal loyalty & experience doesn't equal mercenary, people are far more complicated than that.
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posted on 2/1/24
Of course that may just be lip-service from Poch. I sincerely hope that's not the case and what he says publicly actually translates to what he does privately.
Doing nothing is the best course of action in terms of incomings this window.
Sole focus should be on cutting the squad size down further, priorities straight and even If Poch doesn't stay beyond the summer (or current 18 month contract for whatever reason), will leave the next manager with a better fundementally strong settled squad.
posted on 2/1/24
Comment Deleted by Article Creator
posted on 2/1/24
Name change bet whodumbtit?
posted on 2/1/24
Comment Deleted by Article Creator
posted on 2/1/24
Grandiose statement<doh.
Luxury thinking, in a league where if you dont compete, you will get left behind, it took Bates, Harding and Roman 50 years to build the legacy that some on here will disregard down to a pompous, naive fantasy football mentality.
"Not to forget the worst case scenario...which is said experienced dud players becoming problematic causing insourmountable issues down the line, blocking younger players development, destroying the dynamics in the process and difficult to shift.
Giving experience meaningful minutes over any younger alternative is a fruitless endeavour in the context of a very visible teardown and rebuild around young players and young signings. Dumb hasty step backwards move.
Pining for experience overlooking that side of things is negligent and quite frankly laughable.
All that gets glossed over but these are very important factors to take into account.
I'll never be one to depict experience players as the silver bullet or north star, be-all and end-all solution to issues, especially after the previous recent history of young academy players spearheading us to achieving goals and success.
Time and patience (rarely afforded by so-called supporters) is what will be most rewarding in the end, firmly believe that."
Seriously Cfc had several elite sides combining a mixture of experience & players in there mid / late 20's.
Have a look at the trophy cabinet, it wasn't filled by putting out sides with an average of 22 yrs old
posted on 2/1/24
Oh yeah, lets wait and see how these 5/8 year contracts work out when the kids spit their dummies out on the floors of their multi million pound mansions
Just look at Sancho, Pogba, Lukaku to name but 3!
posted on 2/1/24
Mf,can you please elaborate regarding:
"I'll never be one to depict experience players as the silver bullet or north star, be-all and end-all solution to issues, especially after the previous recent history of young academy players spearheading us to achieving goals and success".
posted on 2/1/24
We need a striker. I don’t rate Broja. Jackson will only get better but he needs competition.
Don’t get the need and links to another CB. Colwill, Diasi, Badashile, Silva and Chalobah is more then enough this season. Next season when Silva leaves Fofana replaces him.
posted on 2/1/24
You must've hated us during the mid-noughties/early 10's? Time after time a clique of experienced players dragging us to honours. That first Champions League win in particular must've been torture for you
Most things in football, and in life, work most efficiently with balance & that's certainly the case with the virtues of youth & experience. There are exceptions of course, like us 15 years ago, but on the whole you need both. United in the 90's are the perfect example of this balance achieved.
It's not youth vs. experience, both need each other! Youth needs the calming hand of experience to manage difficult situations, and experience needs the innovation of youth when things get too comfortable.
posted on 2/1/24
very nicely put mate.
Our young players need guidance.
Mf, why do you think Cole Palmer is the player he is?
posted on 3/1/24
On Cole Palmer you've served to strengthen my argument that Premier League experience or Premier League proven isn't absolutely essential to flourish...Gametime experience was extremely limited prior to joining but he's thriving due to pathway, platform, environment provided.
The whole peddled rhetoric behind Premier League proven and experience is flawed in any case.
Experience, leadership and becoming proven is gained by playing, which is what will happen with this current young squad in time.
Anyway, my problem doesn't lie with experience per se.
Problem is with playing spent players or buying unmotivated half-arsed middling senior experienced pros on astronomical wages blocking pathways of capable players coming through. Dead weights.
Under Roman, club bought a heap of them that were very far behind in development and capacity (in comparision to the players that we've got within), despite their experience and paid for it dearly in more ways than one...
Content with the different (unprecedented) direction, very looking at the bigger picture and no short-termist approach post-Tuchel (Will pay-off).
Sorely needed shake-up from the stale latter years under Roman.
With the current squad...there's a sense of every player in the squad buying into the process (invested in playing for the club), eager to "earn their stripes" and prove a point.
The "running through brick walls" analogy for the good of the club, type attitude and work ethic seems appropriate for these current group of players.
All-in on one common objective + the added incentive of bumping up their modest (starting) wages during the course of their extensive contracts (or "prison contracts", as some would like to call it). No egos.
You've used some of the worst examples in Lukaku, Pogba and Sancho to prove your point...starting wages + image rights of our players on long contracts aren't remotely comparable to them, for that very reason if any of them were to fall by the wayside or fail to live up to expectations...they'd be easier to offload.
posted on 3/1/24
Thank you for your response.
Palmer is currently an exception in the squad, but imo he has without doubt benefited from the experience and quality of players he has developed with.
You avertion to proven experience is illogical imo, i think the issue is with the buying , if we do not profile the players properly, and we settle for numbers 3,4.5 on the managers ideal list of who he wishes to bring in then i think you run the risk of not getting the right players.
Experience, leadership and becoming proven is gained by playing, which is what will happen with this current young squad in time.
Yes this is true, but the younger players need guidance and the benefit of playing with inspirational players, who they respect and can learn their trade from..
"Anyway, my problem doesn't lie with experience per se.
Problem is with playing spent players or buying unmotivated half-arsed middling senior experienced pros on astronomical wages blocking pathways of capable players coming through. Dead weights.
Under Roman, club bought a heap of them that were very far behind in development and capacity (in comparision to the players that we've got within), despite their experience and paid for it dearly in more ways than one."
Well this became the issue in more recent years, post 2017, prior it happened but the quality of the side absorbed it.
But the i think you really have not understood how Roman was running the club.
The first 25 players did feature young talent, but the squad was made up of tried and tested players generally, they in general had enough quality to maintain an elite level of competitiveness.
The academy was in all purpose an income generator to help bridge the gap with finance , supplying pure profit for the maintenance of the clubs elite level competitiveness.
You may not have liked it, clearly, but it worked, look at the trophy cabinet.
Sorely needed shake-up from the stale latter years under Roman.
I do actually agree with you in this point.But where we differ is to what extent, id prefer a more balanced approach , as i believe the EPL is a fast moving highly competitive league, which if you dont stay the pace, you run the risk of getting left behind and coming back is not as simple as it is to let it slip.
"With the current squad...there's a sense of every player in the squad buying into the process (invested in playing for the club), eager to "earn their stripes" and prove a point.
The "running through brick walls" analogy for the good of the club, type attitude and work ethic seems appropriate for these current group of players.
All-in on one common objective + the added incentive of bumping up their modest (starting) wages during the course of their extensive contracts (or "prison contracts", as some would like to call it). No egos."
Well all that sound great, but the reality imo is somewhat different.
Today players donot respect contracts, they have zero loyalty, they may not buy into new managers , as and when they change.
The money on offer is so great, their alignace is to their pocket.
You've used some of the worst examples in Lukaku, Pogba and Sancho to prove your point...starting wages + image rights of our players on long contracts aren't remotely comparable to them, for that very reason if any of them were to fall by the wayside or fail to live up to expectations...they'd be easier to offload.
Well lets look at Tammy, Solanke, H ODio, and so on, much of their issues were around what they were getting paid, they felt they had a sense of entitlement
Easier to offload ? well that maybe, but im watiing to see how that goes, i hope you are right, i do actually feel that the club will have some type of clause, which will benefit both parties if a player wants out, but ? i dont know .
The response is a little rushed, im going to work
posted on 3/1/24
On this point.
"Experience, leadership and becoming proven is gained by playing, which is what will happen with this current young squad in time".
Player development is as we know a process, it is not an exact science.
Its is also a luxury in this league, it imo should be balanced, not as we currently have over dependent upon.
As i have on numerous occasions tried to explain, survival and success in this league is based upon competitive edge, without it the club faces a real risk of slipping to such an extent that it may take a decade+ to recover.
Look at Utd, Liverpool & Afc, plus also Tottenham .
Organic development imo should be at the heart ,but not utterly dependent upon.
Players become demotivated also, success and the prospect of is a great tonic, motivator, but when it goes sideways, all the loyalty goes out the window.
The clubs financial position is a contradiction, it has spent 3.5 bln, its dependent upon an increased income stream, whilst the reality it has a diminishing economy.
The smaller the clubs economy ,(the money it turns over) due to the clubs inability to engage in elite competition will in turn reduce the clubs ability to compete.
It simply will not be able to finance it.
You can choose to ignore this or not , but it is the reality
Now if you want an organic growth, but when the club create a cycle where we become a selling / feeder club , its unlikely we will see much silverware, we may live in a cycle of frustration and all that fighting toe to toe will seem a scant comfort, as imo, the players will see the club as a stepping stone.
So i would caution be careful for what you wish
posted on 4/1/24
"With the current squad...there's a sense of every player in the squad buying into the process (invested in playing for the club), eager to "earn their stripes" and prove a point.
The "running through brick walls" analogy for the good of the club, type attitude and work ethic seems appropriate for these current group of players.
All-in on one common objective + the added incentive of bumping up their modest (starting) wages during the course of their extensive contracts (or "prison contracts", as some would like to call it). No egos."
Well all that sound great, but the reality imo is somewhat different.
Today players donot respect contracts, they have zero loyalty, they may not buy into new managers , as and when they change.
The money on offer is so great, their alignace is to their pocket.
----------------------------------------------------
Yep, that's a total generalisation from CMF.
Players ultimate allegiance is too themselves, as it should be. Mount would've got plenty of gametime here if he'd stayed, so would Christensen and others going further back (the likes of KDB & Lukaku in 2014), but they sought different challenges. Youth doesn't equal loyalty & experience doesn't equal mercenary, people are far more complicated than that.
Page 1 of 1