You could have asked it in another way: Does Arteta think our academy is failing. He is the one to promote academy players or to sell them if he doesn't have faith in them.
Arteta is the product of the Barcelona academy, I wonder what he thinks about modern young players. I assume he is very demanding, he likes to coach exceptional youngsters but he is probably less interested in other ones.

Got the feeling it's not much of a priority for the club and hasn't been for a while. Obviously you'd want top players coming through but it's a shame we're not even seeing solid squad options (or Arteta isn't giving them a chance if they do exist).

I think there was a step back when the Saka, Martinelli, ESR and Nketiah stepped up, and the average age of the team was very young. But that was a long time ago now. There has to be a focus on supplementing the squad and boosting the balance sheet, not just us but all clubs.

Arteta is no different to any manager who fears for his job. A lot is expected of him, and so it's no surprise he prefers a sure thing rather than investing development time on academy players. Wenger had a similar problem, and academy players really had to excel beyond expectation to be promoted. I can't remember too many apart from Wilshere.

This is where a B team would be very handy. City are buying teams across the world, and maybe that's the formula Arsenal need to follow. It's really back to the future with what Wenger and Dein did with Beveren.

We know Arteta has a weakness rotating players, so there is going to be very little opportunity to blood youngsters. We should have seen more of what happened against Palace earlier in the season.

How on earth can you use Wenger He used plenty of academy players, we just saw one captain Maidstone United to a heroic cup upset win.
Arteta fears for his job? He has one of the safest going. Even when we were finishing 8th he was backed.

How many of Wenger's 'academy players' made it to Arsenal first team? I assumed that was what you were talking about when referring to the likes of Saka, ESR, Eddie?

And it's quite different when a manager is at the start of the journey when the ownership recognises issues incl legacy players, compared to now after Arteta has spent £500m+ on developing his team.

Do you honestly think Arteta won't be sacked if we finished 8th now?

Loads. Ashley Cole, Cesc Fabregas, Nicklas Bendtner, Wojciech Szczesny, Justin Hoyte, Gavin Hoyte, Carlos Vela, Fran Merida, Jermaine Pennant, Armand Traore, Kieran Gibbs, Ainsley Maitland-Niles, Alex Iwobi, Hector Bellerin, Manu Frimpong, Nico Yennaris, Craig Eastmond are ones I recall off the top of my head playing in the PL under Wenger.

And I don't think Arteta would finish 8th now. One of the reasons he is so safe.

Why are you including younger players we purchased from around the world because we couldn't afford to buy developed players as academy successes?

I noticed you also included Martinelli when he has nothing to do with the academy.

"And I don't think Arteta would finish 8th now. One of the reasons he is so safe. "

Not the point, is it? Arteta will get the sack like every manager at a top club after spending so much if he failed. This is why Arteta plays his best team. He is not trying to develop academy players.

I include players we brought to develop in the academy for the first team. One of the objections of an academy. It isn't all about developing a kid from 9 years of age.


Wonder why Pep plays Bobb and Lewis. His job is at risk and he can only play the big money signings.

Ferguson and Wenger both got a lot of success from developing young players, most managers do. The big spending is not sustainable, and developing youngsters is important to clubs. Just look at Barcelona.

So are you talking about young players we have bought from around the world and are concerned they are not developing to their ceilings?

Or are you talking about the academy developing local players?

Because the reasons for the lack of success would have very different issues.

I am talking about the academy, which covers both facets. I mean, I wouldn't rule Nketiah out of our academy because he joined from Chelsea at 16.
Players like Salah, Mika Biereth, Lino Sousa, Karl Hein were brought to the club in the same way as Cesc, Szczesny, Bendtner. Youth team players to develop in the academy in the hope of developing them into first team players or sell for a nice sum.

I'm not talking about Sambi, Fabio Vieira or Nuno Tavares who were brought to go straight into the first team squad.

I would compare Cesc to Martinelli. Bendtner improved with loans, whereas I suppose Marqinhos hasn't so far.

I suppose you could partly lay the blame on the scouting network for not being as good as it was under Wenger. Weren't they all fired around covid times? Who would be responsible for rebuilding that? Edu?

Maybe thats why Garlick was appointed as CEO. He comes from a football background rather than a commercial background like Vinai. And thats a shift of strategy.

I suppose it could mean the end of Mert.

However, I still believe Arteta will play his strongest team. And if that means a youngster, so be it. He just does not have the credit accrued by Wenger, Fergie or Pep winning major trophies. I just hope for an improvement in rotation from him rather than questioning development, which I believe is way down the line in his 'must improve' list.

Developing players is key though. It is a lucrative market if you do well - a youngster with first team experience at a big club puts a lot of pounds on his price tag.

Arteta will play his strongest team in dead rubbers and cups he gets knocked out of. It is a big issue, but there is equally no point playing Cedric in those games instead of Walters or Sousa or equally gifted youngster.
Leaving Nelson stagnating doesn't help anyone. He gets thrown in, isn't up to match pace and then goes back to the bench. Far better to give them minutes to a developing player, sell Nelson when his price is high. Learn from mistakes like AMN.

"improvement in rotation" and developing young players is just part of the same issue. Arteta thinks players can play 70 games a season, so is happy to let players rot on the bench rather than the natural development of squads through the academy. You only have to look at the teams around us and see them use academy players to fill the squad - City were not afraid to sell Palmer and replace him with Bobb just as Pep wasn't afraid to use the likes of Iheanacho and Garcia in his first season to support the key players and then move them on and bring in the next ones like Foden, then Lewis, then Palmer, then Bobb etc.

Decent debate. The problem with most academies developing from a very young age is that bar a few exceptions nobody really knows what players can make it until they are passed growth stages and tested up the levels. Aside from that though they need a squad to put a team out for the few that will make it.

CIES Football Observatory 2015 data suggested Arsenal weer doing OK. https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr09/en/

TBF if you are a player you just want to play at as high a level as possible. If you can make a living out of it then all the better. The club you use as a vehicle is secondary.

comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 0 seconds ago
Decent debate. The problem with most academies developing from a very young age is that bar a few exceptions nobody really knows what players can make it until they are passed growth stages and tested up the levels. Aside from that though they need a squad to put a team out for the few that will make it.

CIES Football Observatory 2015 data suggested Arsenal weer doing OK. https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr09/en/

TBF if you are a player you just want to play at as high a level as possible. If you can make a living out of it then all the better. The club you use as a vehicle is secondary.
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Ah, found more recent data

https://football-observatory.com/WeeklyPost446

And another

https://football-observatory.com/WeeklyPost440

MOre

https://football-observatory.com/WeeklyPost436

My sales data in the article seems to match with the post above.
It does highlight that most of the money made came from 4 players and the other 22 didn't bring much in at all.

A lot of our recent development of players from academy to first team was done with Europa football. However, it was almost exclusively done pre-Arteta - even with Europa football.

Clearly Arteta doesn't trust younger players, and it was Emery who spotted and promoted ESR, Saka, Willock etc. Emery was somewhat forced to do that because there was no way to shift big wage players quickly. And to make matters worse, those players had lost their drive, probably because they knew they were on the way out.

Arteta is less experienced in everything. The question is whether he has learned from last season, where squad use was questionable but excused by supporters for lacking quality. So far, it seems he hasn't, and maybe the results tailed off in Dec precisely because the same group were played too much and were tired.

You cannot really develop younger players unless they play, and when rotation is so poor, when will they get that chance? So how will Arteta build that trust?

The credit Emery is given for ‘discovering’ Saka is overblown. The guy played him mainly at LB/LWB. It was Arteta that has helped hone his, already undoubted, talent, making him the player we have today.

And ESR famously ‘saved’ Arteta’s Arsenal career against Chelsea. Yes, mainly due to injuries meaning the squad was down to barebones, but circumstance often influences whether players get their chance or not - Ashley Cole, rumoured to being sold to Watford, instead taking the chance given to him because of Silvinho’s dodgy passport.

After ESR being so influential during that Chelsea match he subsequently retained his place in the team pretty much until injury struck.

As to whether our academy is succeeding or failing… who/what are we comparing it to? To my mind it’s doing okay. Maybe slightly underperforming. Certainly not failing.

Think too many Arsenal fans look at Saka, ESR, Nelson, Willock etc and assume it should always be like this.

Academies rarely produce EPL level players on a regular basis though.

Fans also don’t seem understand the damage that can be done to a young player’s development when they call for managers to blood academy players before they’re ready.

Charlie Patino, a case in point.

Described as being ‘the best young midfield talent’ some had ever seen at Hale End (or something along those lines), there we were, calling for him to be given his chance. Debut start in the FA Cup against Forest. He was one of the worst players in a woeful team performance.

Currently on loan at Swansea and, apart from the occasional YouTube clip appearing here and there, no one’s talking about his chances at Arsenal anymore.

‘The greatest midfield talent at the academy.’

But no worries. Now we have Ethan Nwaneri and Miles Lewis-Skelly. ‘The greatest midfield talent…’ etc.

Why won’t Arteta give them their chance??!

Patino is still very much talked about. Many observers think he should be in the squad ahead of Vieira at least.

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Think too many Arsenal fans look at Saka, ESR, Nelson, Willock etc and assume it should always be like this.
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In terms of Nelson and Willock, it should . Look around at every other club. They are debuting kids. I'm sure no-one expects a "Saka" every year but why shouldn't you expect an academy player or two to step up as first team squad players.
Where Liverpool play Bradley, Arsenal would play Cedric. Where City sell Palmer and promote Bobb Arsenal keep 24 year old Nelson to stagnate and get criticised the few times he does get on.

If during the 4 years of Arteta there hasn't been a single academy player good enough to play dead rubbers, Europa games and come off the bench in the PL then the academy must be doing something wrong.


I really don't see what damage could have been done to Nwaneri by putting him on when we led 5-0 against Lyon, or played Walters instead of deadwood Cedric in the game against PSV. Liverpool are playing Quansah and Bradley in far bigger games.

Fans also don’t seem understand the damage that can be done to a young player’s development when they call for managers to blood academy players before they’re ready.
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Point is lex how will we know if they are ready unless you allow them to fail?

comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 26 minutes ago
Patino is still very much talked about. Many observers think he should be in the squad ahead of Vieira at least.

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Think too many Arsenal fans look at Saka, ESR, Nelson, Willock etc and assume it should always be like this.
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In terms of Nelson and Willock, it should . Look around at every other club. They are debuting kids. I'm sure no-one expects a "Saka" every year but why shouldn't you expect an academy player or two to step up as first team squad players.
Where Liverpool play Bradley, Arsenal would play Cedric. Where City sell Palmer and promote Bobb Arsenal keep 24 year old Nelson to stagnate and get criticised the few times he does get on.

If during the 4 years of Arteta there hasn't been a single academy player good enough to play dead rubbers, Europa games and come off the bench in the PL then the academy must be doing something wrong.


I really don't see what damage could have been done to Nwaneri by putting him on when we led 5-0 against Lyon, or played Walters instead of deadwood Cedric in the game against PSV. Liverpool are playing Quansah and Bradley in far bigger games.
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You’re comparing Arteta, a young manager still with everything to prove, with two guys with the least to prove in the game. That’s a crucial point. Added to that, you have fan and media perception to factor in too.

Look at the BBC headlines this week in the wake of Klopp’s announcement. ‘A passionate manager who wore his heart on his sleeve’. The very things the media berate Arteta for.

Also, think back a few years to when Pep was being hounded for not playing Foden. One of the most decorated managers in football history knew it was too soon, and look at Foden now.