Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
There isn't a lot in that article that hasn't already been touched on repeatedly by some on here for months.
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 11 seconds ago
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is me, yes. Watching the game I never think of stats, tactics etc. I do watch individual players and the flow of thegame.
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 1 minute ago
There isn't a lot in that article that hasn't already been touched on repeatedly by some on here for months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive never read anyone analysing why we let so many shots at goal, and why. Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 5 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As the article points out, it's not just because of the failings of the front line when it comes to pressing, but a fundamental issue of not committing enough players to support the press, with big gaps behind the front four which leave the midfielders with too much space to mark. This is a basic tactical issue as well as a personnel issue.
For a more detailed (and just as damning) assessment of our failure to execute a coherent pressing structure, I recommend the recent Tifo podcast assessing Ten Hag's second season and why it has gone so much worse than everyone expected.
https://theathletic.com/podcast/197-the-tifo-football-podcast/episode-266/
https://open.spotify.com/show/1UfjWKYoz41kWYdzI9umb4?si=698a577c365543c5&nd=1&dlsi=6de5bc8aa77d4373
comment by Red Russian
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 5 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As the article points out, it's not just because of the failings of the front line when it comes to pressing, but a fundamental issue of not committing enough players to support the press, with big gaps behind the front four which leave the midfielders with too much space to mark. This is a basic tactical issue as well as a personnel issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As the top teams demonstrate, they attack and defend as one and have superior game management tactics. Like you say you can only do this if all the players are committed to the cause (i.e. a press), to the philosophy. Far too often our players are simply doing nothing or whatever they feel like when not in possession.
Ive never read anyone analysing why we let so many shots at goal, and why. Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
---------------------------------------------
Well seeing as you've admitted you don't think of stats and tactics maybe it's gone over your head.
-------------------------------------------
Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
-------------------------------------------
They're actually a whole lot worse than what they seem. They're genuinely frightening.
Should have kept Ronaldo.
The master of the non press but a great goal scorer. 👍
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 10 minutes ago
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it tells us a lot of things that the imbeciles who comment on the match threads are not seeing.
comment by WeekendOffender (U22920)
posted 39 seconds ago
Should have kept Ronaldo.
The master of the non press but a great goal scorer. 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was papering over the cracks, he was always going to be a stop-gap but his ego was too disruptive for ETH to manage
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 10 minutes ago
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it tells us a lot of things that the imbeciles who comment on the match threads are not seeing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it shows why every time we put a player in the holding midfield position, he « loses his legs » : Casemiro, Mainoo, and Amrabat, who was a beast before coming to United. It’s because they operate within a system that leaves them totally exposed. You don’t press individually, you do it as a team. So if you have one player like Rashford, who thinks it’s beneath his dignity to press and track back, the whole system fails.
In summary:
We are doing crap and we should be doing even worse with the number of shots we've faced.
We've got another 5/6/7 goal loss on the cards if we let this farce go on. If you allow every team to have 25/30 shots then eventually someone else is going to do what Liverpool did to us last year. It's just law of averages.
Should have been sacked months ago.
Should have been sacked months ago.
............
We know. You tell us every day. Multiple times.
You are the Manchester United Supporter version of Donald Trump.
Does any of this matter? No offence but if some random bloke sitting at home can write these articles about United’s tactics then you’d assume ETH and his team as elite level managers/coaches would have known this long before the person who wrote the article.
What matters is what they actually do about the problem more than what the problem itself.
And are the the right people to even fix the problem in the first place?
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 11 minutes ago
Does any of this matter? No offence but if some random bloke sitting at home can write these articles about United’s tactics then you’d assume ETH and his team as elite level managers/coaches would have known this long before the person who wrote the article.
What matters is what they actually do about the problem more than what the problem itself.
And are the the right people to even fix the problem in the first place?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's to inform us, not ETH
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 2 hours, 15 minutes ago
Ive never read anyone analysing why we let so many shots at goal, and why. Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
---------------------------------------------
Well seeing as you've admitted you don't think of stats and tactics maybe it's gone over your head.
-------------------------------------------
Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
-------------------------------------------
They're actually a whole lot worse than what they seem. They're genuinely frightening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I read the threads, so you're wrong on both counts
Good read, I think most of it has been touched on before. Some of those stats are interesting though, some of them are so outrageous that I would question their usefulness. This for example i just do not buy:
"That United are not positioned so lowly in the table owes to how poorly their opponents have been at converting their shots — a rate of just 7 per cent, also the lowest in the league."
He's either saying every team that plays against us somehow, inexplicably becomes hopeless at finishing for that 1 game, or we have the probably the best shot stopper in the league in goal. Neither of which sound plausible. xG stats are useful but flawed. I'd say that particular stat speak to the quantity of shots we concede rather than the quality. Average xG per shot faced would probably be a more useful indicator (I'm sure someone has it)
Not an excuse though, it's horrendous either way.
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feels like the people who do press also do so in a stupid way. Fernandes for example won't read the room, will just try and press when no-one is and he gets played out of the game. Hard to say exactly who is at fault cos it's probably basically everyone
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 23 minutes ago
Good read, I think most of it has been touched on before. Some of those stats are interesting though, some of them are so outrageous that I would question their usefulness. This for example i just do not buy:
"That United are not positioned so lowly in the table owes to how poorly their opponents have been at converting their shots — a rate of just 7 per cent, also the lowest in the league."
He's either saying every team that plays against us somehow, inexplicably becomes hopeless at finishing for that 1 game, or we have the probably the best shot stopper in the league in goal. Neither of which sound plausible. xG stats are useful but flawed. I'd say that particular stat speak to the quantity of shots we concede rather than the quality. Average xG per shot faced would probably be a more useful indicator (I'm sure someone has it)
Not an excuse though, it's horrendous either way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were some stats doing the rounds a while back that showed that we were conceding a lot of low quality shots, and that the cumulative nature of xg didn’t really accurately represent the chances we were conceding.
You’d rather give away 8 shots with a value of 0.1 than a penalty with a value of 0.76, even though the former scores higher on xg.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 23 minutes ago
Good read, I think most of it has been touched on before. Some of those stats are interesting though, some of them are so outrageous that I would question their usefulness. This for example i just do not buy:
"That United are not positioned so lowly in the table owes to how poorly their opponents have been at converting their shots — a rate of just 7 per cent, also the lowest in the league."
He's either saying every team that plays against us somehow, inexplicably becomes hopeless at finishing for that 1 game, or we have the probably the best shot stopper in the league in goal. Neither of which sound plausible. xG stats are useful but flawed. I'd say that particular stat speak to the quantity of shots we concede rather than the quality. Average xG per shot faced would probably be a more useful indicator (I'm sure someone has it)
Not an excuse though, it's horrendous either way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were some stats doing the rounds a while back that showed that we were conceding a lot of low quality shots, and that the cumulative nature of xg didn’t really accurately represent the chances we were conceding.
You’d rather give away 8 shots with a value of 0.1 than a penalty with a value of 0.76, even though the former scores higher on xg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a more reasonable explanation.
They're actually a whole lot worse than what they seem. They're genuinely frightening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I read the threads, so you're wrong on both counts
…..
Of course they are worse than what they seem. I think you are misunderstanding something here.
I will put it in simplistic terms. The amount of shots at goal we concede is staggering and we have been very lucky not to have been on the end of some good thrashings. We have let in 11 goals in our last 4 matches. It should have been more.
mu52
I replied to one of your articles not so long ago with a brief explanation of why we're conceding so many shots and why our defence is near at breaking point due to the immense pressure it's being put under week in week out.
I know BerbaKing in particular has on a few occasions gone into some detail talking about similar things and more.
It's not my fault if you've missed it or just chosen to ignore it.
comment by T-BAD
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feels like the people who do press also do so in a stupid way. Fernandes for example won't read the room, will just try and press when no-one is and he gets played out of the game. Hard to say exactly who is at fault cos it's probably basically everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Half hearted attempts of pressing done sporadically, without being carried out effectively and collectively can do more damage. It leads to shortages of numbers in defensive areas.
When you press collectively you are taking a calculated risk, you are also limiting a chance for a pass from easy to very risky. When we press we make the passing opportunity easy, it looks effortless but in reality the opposition has hardly broken sweat. A well drilled, disciplined team sticks to their plans, a team full of selfish individuals does what they want even if they are well drilled!
Sign in if you want to comment
A seriously interesting article
Page 1 of 2
posted on 22/4/24
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
posted on 22/4/24
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
posted on 22/4/24
There isn't a lot in that article that hasn't already been touched on repeatedly by some on here for months.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 11 seconds ago
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is me, yes. Watching the game I never think of stats, tactics etc. I do watch individual players and the flow of thegame.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 1 minute ago
There isn't a lot in that article that hasn't already been touched on repeatedly by some on here for months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive never read anyone analysing why we let so many shots at goal, and why. Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 5 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As the article points out, it's not just because of the failings of the front line when it comes to pressing, but a fundamental issue of not committing enough players to support the press, with big gaps behind the front four which leave the midfielders with too much space to mark. This is a basic tactical issue as well as a personnel issue.
posted on 22/4/24
For a more detailed (and just as damning) assessment of our failure to execute a coherent pressing structure, I recommend the recent Tifo podcast assessing Ten Hag's second season and why it has gone so much worse than everyone expected.
https://theathletic.com/podcast/197-the-tifo-football-podcast/episode-266/
https://open.spotify.com/show/1UfjWKYoz41kWYdzI9umb4?si=698a577c365543c5&nd=1&dlsi=6de5bc8aa77d4373
posted on 22/4/24
comment by Red Russian
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 5 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As the article points out, it's not just because of the failings of the front line when it comes to pressing, but a fundamental issue of not committing enough players to support the press, with big gaps behind the front four which leave the midfielders with too much space to mark. This is a basic tactical issue as well as a personnel issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As the top teams demonstrate, they attack and defend as one and have superior game management tactics. Like you say you can only do this if all the players are committed to the cause (i.e. a press), to the philosophy. Far too often our players are simply doing nothing or whatever they feel like when not in possession.
posted on 22/4/24
Ive never read anyone analysing why we let so many shots at goal, and why. Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
---------------------------------------------
Well seeing as you've admitted you don't think of stats and tactics maybe it's gone over your head.
-------------------------------------------
Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
-------------------------------------------
They're actually a whole lot worse than what they seem. They're genuinely frightening.
posted on 22/4/24
Should have kept Ronaldo.
The master of the non press but a great goal scorer. 👍
posted on 22/4/24
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 10 minutes ago
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it tells us a lot of things that the imbeciles who comment on the match threads are not seeing.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by WeekendOffender (U22920)
posted 39 seconds ago
Should have kept Ronaldo.
The master of the non press but a great goal scorer. 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was papering over the cracks, he was always going to be a stop-gap but his ego was too disruptive for ETH to manage
posted on 22/4/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 10 minutes ago
Honestly, is it telling us anything that we didn't know
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it tells us a lot of things that the imbeciles who comment on the match threads are not seeing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it shows why every time we put a player in the holding midfield position, he « loses his legs » : Casemiro, Mainoo, and Amrabat, who was a beast before coming to United. It’s because they operate within a system that leaves them totally exposed. You don’t press individually, you do it as a team. So if you have one player like Rashford, who thinks it’s beneath his dignity to press and track back, the whole system fails.
posted on 22/4/24
In summary:
We are doing crap and we should be doing even worse with the number of shots we've faced.
We've got another 5/6/7 goal loss on the cards if we let this farce go on. If you allow every team to have 25/30 shots then eventually someone else is going to do what Liverpool did to us last year. It's just law of averages.
Should have been sacked months ago.
posted on 22/4/24
Should have been sacked months ago.
............
We know. You tell us every day. Multiple times.
You are the Manchester United Supporter version of Donald Trump.
posted on 22/4/24
Does any of this matter? No offence but if some random bloke sitting at home can write these articles about United’s tactics then you’d assume ETH and his team as elite level managers/coaches would have known this long before the person who wrote the article.
What matters is what they actually do about the problem more than what the problem itself.
And are the the right people to even fix the problem in the first place?
posted on 22/4/24
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 11 minutes ago
Does any of this matter? No offence but if some random bloke sitting at home can write these articles about United’s tactics then you’d assume ETH and his team as elite level managers/coaches would have known this long before the person who wrote the article.
What matters is what they actually do about the problem more than what the problem itself.
And are the the right people to even fix the problem in the first place?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's to inform us, not ETH
posted on 22/4/24
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 2 hours, 15 minutes ago
Ive never read anyone analysing why we let so many shots at goal, and why. Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
---------------------------------------------
Well seeing as you've admitted you don't think of stats and tactics maybe it's gone over your head.
-------------------------------------------
Or why those stats aren't all they seem.
-------------------------------------------
They're actually a whole lot worse than what they seem. They're genuinely frightening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I read the threads, so you're wrong on both counts
posted on 22/4/24
Good read, I think most of it has been touched on before. Some of those stats are interesting though, some of them are so outrageous that I would question their usefulness. This for example i just do not buy:
"That United are not positioned so lowly in the table owes to how poorly their opponents have been at converting their shots — a rate of just 7 per cent, also the lowest in the league."
He's either saying every team that plays against us somehow, inexplicably becomes hopeless at finishing for that 1 game, or we have the probably the best shot stopper in the league in goal. Neither of which sound plausible. xG stats are useful but flawed. I'd say that particular stat speak to the quantity of shots we concede rather than the quality. Average xG per shot faced would probably be a more useful indicator (I'm sure someone has it)
Not an excuse though, it's horrendous either way.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feels like the people who do press also do so in a stupid way. Fernandes for example won't read the room, will just try and press when no-one is and he gets played out of the game. Hard to say exactly who is at fault cos it's probably basically everyone
posted on 22/4/24
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 23 minutes ago
Good read, I think most of it has been touched on before. Some of those stats are interesting though, some of them are so outrageous that I would question their usefulness. This for example i just do not buy:
"That United are not positioned so lowly in the table owes to how poorly their opponents have been at converting their shots — a rate of just 7 per cent, also the lowest in the league."
He's either saying every team that plays against us somehow, inexplicably becomes hopeless at finishing for that 1 game, or we have the probably the best shot stopper in the league in goal. Neither of which sound plausible. xG stats are useful but flawed. I'd say that particular stat speak to the quantity of shots we concede rather than the quality. Average xG per shot faced would probably be a more useful indicator (I'm sure someone has it)
Not an excuse though, it's horrendous either way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were some stats doing the rounds a while back that showed that we were conceding a lot of low quality shots, and that the cumulative nature of xg didn’t really accurately represent the chances we were conceding.
You’d rather give away 8 shots with a value of 0.1 than a penalty with a value of 0.76, even though the former scores higher on xg.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 23 minutes ago
Good read, I think most of it has been touched on before. Some of those stats are interesting though, some of them are so outrageous that I would question their usefulness. This for example i just do not buy:
"That United are not positioned so lowly in the table owes to how poorly their opponents have been at converting their shots — a rate of just 7 per cent, also the lowest in the league."
He's either saying every team that plays against us somehow, inexplicably becomes hopeless at finishing for that 1 game, or we have the probably the best shot stopper in the league in goal. Neither of which sound plausible. xG stats are useful but flawed. I'd say that particular stat speak to the quantity of shots we concede rather than the quality. Average xG per shot faced would probably be a more useful indicator (I'm sure someone has it)
Not an excuse though, it's horrendous either way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were some stats doing the rounds a while back that showed that we were conceding a lot of low quality shots, and that the cumulative nature of xg didn’t really accurately represent the chances we were conceding.
You’d rather give away 8 shots with a value of 0.1 than a penalty with a value of 0.76, even though the former scores higher on xg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a more reasonable explanation.
posted on 22/4/24
They're actually a whole lot worse than what they seem. They're genuinely frightening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I read the threads, so you're wrong on both counts
…..
Of course they are worse than what they seem. I think you are misunderstanding something here.
I will put it in simplistic terms. The amount of shots at goal we concede is staggering and we have been very lucky not to have been on the end of some good thrashings. We have let in 11 goals in our last 4 matches. It should have been more.
posted on 22/4/24
mu52
I replied to one of your articles not so long ago with a brief explanation of why we're conceding so many shots and why our defence is near at breaking point due to the immense pressure it's being put under week in week out.
I know BerbaKing in particular has on a few occasions gone into some detail talking about similar things and more.
It's not my fault if you've missed it or just chosen to ignore it.
posted on 22/4/24
comment by T-BAD
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
Really good read.
We move the ball at the same speed towards goal as Liverpool, main difference they have more match winners than we do. Our press fails because we have the most ill discipled, work shy caaaants going, biggest of whom is Marcus Rashford, Nacho is no better but at least he tries. This allows the opposition to bypass the idiots to strike at goal. Our CM is no better either with Casemiro doing eff all.
No matter who we get as manager this squad has been assembled to fail. Far too many overpaid egos who think they are better than they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feels like the people who do press also do so in a stupid way. Fernandes for example won't read the room, will just try and press when no-one is and he gets played out of the game. Hard to say exactly who is at fault cos it's probably basically everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Half hearted attempts of pressing done sporadically, without being carried out effectively and collectively can do more damage. It leads to shortages of numbers in defensive areas.
When you press collectively you are taking a calculated risk, you are also limiting a chance for a pass from easy to very risky. When we press we make the passing opportunity easy, it looks effortless but in reality the opposition has hardly broken sweat. A well drilled, disciplined team sticks to their plans, a team full of selfish individuals does what they want even if they are well drilled!
Page 1 of 2