https://youtube.com/shorts/kjLxs5iMYyI?si=Iak3mzjNvSTbFfkR
Very frustrating.
It’s so obvious we have no one in CM who can take the ball under some (not even a lot ffs) pressure, then actually keep it and make a basic 6 yard pass without giving it away, move and repeat.
Kobbie literally does this amazingly well. He would knit our play together and also have the ability to KEEP THE BALL.
FFS you are playing an average right back, who’s barely played in CM for his club let alone country at a major tournament ahead of him? Jesus wept.
It’s so obvious it’s painful, get a grip man or faaack off.
Also Palmer should be starting ahead of either Saka or Foden next game. No balls Southgate though will play an unchanged team I imagine.
I think it’s hard to know with these kind of things when it comes to tournaments, as a stylistic or tactical decision that may look obvious to us may not be so simple when you factor the temperament to deal with playing in an England shirt at a tournament.
It’s why, though I would have like to see Wharton or Mainoo get on the pitch for the former reasons, I can understand why they may not if they aren’t ready with the latter.
Given how many big name, big game, players have frozen on the biggest stage for England, I’ll always be conscious of this when it comes to others not playing.
Yes agree with that but that’s what makes it even more frustrating he left out players that have shown they’ve got the temperament to deal with it. If you couple that with tactical choices that, as much as I’m up for trying, are blindingly obviously not working and not making the right changes to tweak, it does concern me for the future games.
I do admit though that I’ve had an issue with Southgate since 2018 and I am overly critical of him, I would absolutely love him to prove me wrong.
If you pick them for the squad, then if it’s tactically the right choice, play them.
Yeah that’s been my main issue with the squad selection, I think there were players left out that should have been there based on that temperament.
I don’t necessarily agree that because they’ve gone that they should play, though. Especially when it comes to young players. Often these players are brought in with an eye on their future development and getting them used to being in tournament camps. Now whether you think national teams should be doing this is a different debate, but I think the point still stands when it comes to the immediate needs.
I think you’re overly critical of him because you place a high premium on the tactical side of the game. I think this is probably where you and I differ quite a bit, despite generally agreeing on most things.
But I don’t think it’s nearly as important in international football as it is in club football just because the conditions are so different, and the mental side of the game is by far the most important thing on this stage. It’s something that has plagued England for decades, and we aren’t the only nation that just crumble on the biggest stage, as the pressures are incredible.
If I was picking an England side from this squad I'd be going.
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Guehi
Trippier (Shaw if fit)
Rice
Bellingham
Palmer
Kane
Gordon
Watkins
I know it may seem daft playing Kane a bit deeper but I think Watkins would help you stretch the pitch a bit with Kane having runners off him.
Saka and Foden would be great subs to have to come on if needed.
Which is fine if you do that with a few players, I just think he’s extended it too far with the squad he’s chosen this time and in the wrong positions.
In terms of the premium on the tactical side, a bit of that is a hangover from 2018 where I thought he had the squad, he had the mentality in the right place but tactically made the wrong choices and I’ll resent him for a long time still for that! They are interlinked though - the mental side of it will only fully be there if you give the players a system that they’re comfortable with and with each other.
In previous tournaments, he’s done that and then came undone in latter stages when the tactical becomes more important as you’re coming up against other teams that have a similar mentality. The difference this time round is I don’t think he had a squad or starting eleven that has that base understanding to build from, which makes his tactical choices even more important.
He’s missing the real basics of just balances far and what worries me more is the changes he’s made in both games haven’t been ones to fix that.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-scholes-brutally-shuts-down-29248982.amp
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 7 hours, 23 minutes ago
If I was picking an England side from this squad I'd be going.
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Guehi
Trippier (Shaw if fit)
Rice
Bellingham
Palmer
Kane
Gordon
Watkins
I know it may seem daft playing Kane a bit deeper but I think Watkins would help you stretch the pitch a bit with Kane having runners off him.
Saka and Foden would be great subs to have to come on if needed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not the worst thing i've seen
Can’t really agree with that, melts. Especially 2018, that squad was so weak. And given how often England players lose their heads I wouldn’t say they have a similar mentality to Italy and France, which was shown by the fact we got knocked out by missed penalties.
I didn’t think as a team it was weak, I thought it was the most balanced we’d had in years and had options that could work too.
Really? There was some balance, but the midfield was weak, we lacked pace and Sterling couldn’t hit a barn door that tournament. The midfield especially was a massive problem, Croatia’s was levels above ours. Ali, Henderson and Lingard was as poor a midfield as we’ve had in decades.
Against the teams we played, yes, it was the most fortuitous draw I think we’ve ever had.
Croatia was really the first game he needed to make a tactical tweak for and didn’t. I’d have to back on here or rewatch it to remember why I was so irritated though!
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
Croatia was really the first game he needed to make a tactical tweak for and didn’t. I’d have to back on here or rewatch it to remember why I was so irritated though!
---------------------------------------------
I certainly thought he had to make a tactical change during that game when Croatia started dominating the wide areas in the latter stages of normal time and extra-time.
We couldn't cope with their overloads and the midfield had far too much space to cover horizontally and he just let things play out like that until the final whistle.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That maybe so but the reason you make tactical tweaks is so things like that happening don’t come back to bite you.
That and it’s international level, we aren’t really talking in depth tactics here as it doesn’t really happen, it’s just the basics of reacting to the opposition and situation in game and hopefully getting the balance right in the first place.
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 20 minutes ago
Croatia was really the first game he needed to make a tactical tweak for and didn’t. I’d have to back on here or rewatch it to remember why I was so irritated though!
---------------------------------------------
I certainly thought he had to make a tactical change during that game when Croatia started dominating the wide areas in the latter stages of normal time and extra-time.
We couldn't cope with their overloads and the midfield had far too much space to cover horizontally and he just let things play out like that until the final whistle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s pretty much how I remember it. I can’t bring myself to watch it again!
I find the feeling of losing is worse with England because major tournaments only come along every two years and they're over in a flash.
2021 was incredibly hard to take.
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That maybe so but the reason you make tactical tweaks is so things like that happening don’t come back to bite you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s just the name of the game when you play against better teams in international football. Especially when it’s international bottlers like England, they’re almost an inevitability.
Too add a point RE international tournament, I think they are important but it’s more on a basic level that any of us would implement on a FM save. Make sure you have have the right balance and right players in each position.
I thought our tactics were wrong in the 2018WC, it was abundantly clear by this point that the midfield trio of Dele/Lingard/Hendo was overrun against any decent midfield and RLC (who was good against Belgium) should play alongside Hendo instead of Dele (I also thought Rose should’ve played instead of Young by then).
However the tactics were good last Euros (bar Scotland) and last WC. They have been abysmal this tournament.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That maybe so but the reason you make tactical tweaks is so things like that happening don’t come back to bite you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s just the name of the game when you play against better teams in international football. Especially when it’s international bottlers like England, they’re almost an inevitability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not the name of the game to make some of the basic errors Southgate does at times though. He’s done a lot right as England manager, his tactical choices at times have been his biggest weakness though. The games we’ve struggled in, including the two already at this tournament, have clearly not been down to players bottling it, it’s been really stupid tactical and selection choices.
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Why no Mainoo?
Page 3 of 3
posted on 20/6/24
https://youtube.com/shorts/kjLxs5iMYyI?si=Iak3mzjNvSTbFfkR
posted on 20/6/24
Very frustrating.
It’s so obvious we have no one in CM who can take the ball under some (not even a lot ffs) pressure, then actually keep it and make a basic 6 yard pass without giving it away, move and repeat.
Kobbie literally does this amazingly well. He would knit our play together and also have the ability to KEEP THE BALL.
FFS you are playing an average right back, who’s barely played in CM for his club let alone country at a major tournament ahead of him? Jesus wept.
It’s so obvious it’s painful, get a grip man or faaack off.
posted on 20/6/24
Also Palmer should be starting ahead of either Saka or Foden next game. No balls Southgate though will play an unchanged team I imagine.
posted on 20/6/24
I think it’s hard to know with these kind of things when it comes to tournaments, as a stylistic or tactical decision that may look obvious to us may not be so simple when you factor the temperament to deal with playing in an England shirt at a tournament.
It’s why, though I would have like to see Wharton or Mainoo get on the pitch for the former reasons, I can understand why they may not if they aren’t ready with the latter.
Given how many big name, big game, players have frozen on the biggest stage for England, I’ll always be conscious of this when it comes to others not playing.
posted on 21/6/24
Yes agree with that but that’s what makes it even more frustrating he left out players that have shown they’ve got the temperament to deal with it. If you couple that with tactical choices that, as much as I’m up for trying, are blindingly obviously not working and not making the right changes to tweak, it does concern me for the future games.
I do admit though that I’ve had an issue with Southgate since 2018 and I am overly critical of him, I would absolutely love him to prove me wrong.
posted on 21/6/24
If you pick them for the squad, then if it’s tactically the right choice, play them.
posted on 21/6/24
Yeah that’s been my main issue with the squad selection, I think there were players left out that should have been there based on that temperament.
I don’t necessarily agree that because they’ve gone that they should play, though. Especially when it comes to young players. Often these players are brought in with an eye on their future development and getting them used to being in tournament camps. Now whether you think national teams should be doing this is a different debate, but I think the point still stands when it comes to the immediate needs.
I think you’re overly critical of him because you place a high premium on the tactical side of the game. I think this is probably where you and I differ quite a bit, despite generally agreeing on most things.
But I don’t think it’s nearly as important in international football as it is in club football just because the conditions are so different, and the mental side of the game is by far the most important thing on this stage. It’s something that has plagued England for decades, and we aren’t the only nation that just crumble on the biggest stage, as the pressures are incredible.
posted on 21/6/24
If I was picking an England side from this squad I'd be going.
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Guehi
Trippier (Shaw if fit)
Rice
Bellingham
Palmer
Kane
Gordon
Watkins
I know it may seem daft playing Kane a bit deeper but I think Watkins would help you stretch the pitch a bit with Kane having runners off him.
Saka and Foden would be great subs to have to come on if needed.
posted on 21/6/24
Which is fine if you do that with a few players, I just think he’s extended it too far with the squad he’s chosen this time and in the wrong positions.
In terms of the premium on the tactical side, a bit of that is a hangover from 2018 where I thought he had the squad, he had the mentality in the right place but tactically made the wrong choices and I’ll resent him for a long time still for that! They are interlinked though - the mental side of it will only fully be there if you give the players a system that they’re comfortable with and with each other.
In previous tournaments, he’s done that and then came undone in latter stages when the tactical becomes more important as you’re coming up against other teams that have a similar mentality. The difference this time round is I don’t think he had a squad or starting eleven that has that base understanding to build from, which makes his tactical choices even more important.
He’s missing the real basics of just balances far and what worries me more is the changes he’s made in both games haven’t been ones to fix that.
posted on 21/6/24
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-scholes-brutally-shuts-down-29248982.amp
posted on 21/6/24
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 7 hours, 23 minutes ago
If I was picking an England side from this squad I'd be going.
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Guehi
Trippier (Shaw if fit)
Rice
Bellingham
Palmer
Kane
Gordon
Watkins
I know it may seem daft playing Kane a bit deeper but I think Watkins would help you stretch the pitch a bit with Kane having runners off him.
Saka and Foden would be great subs to have to come on if needed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not the worst thing i've seen
posted on 21/6/24
Can’t really agree with that, melts. Especially 2018, that squad was so weak. And given how often England players lose their heads I wouldn’t say they have a similar mentality to Italy and France, which was shown by the fact we got knocked out by missed penalties.
posted on 21/6/24
I didn’t think as a team it was weak, I thought it was the most balanced we’d had in years and had options that could work too.
posted on 21/6/24
Really? There was some balance, but the midfield was weak, we lacked pace and Sterling couldn’t hit a barn door that tournament. The midfield especially was a massive problem, Croatia’s was levels above ours. Ali, Henderson and Lingard was as poor a midfield as we’ve had in decades.
posted on 21/6/24
Against the teams we played, yes, it was the most fortuitous draw I think we’ve ever had.
Croatia was really the first game he needed to make a tactical tweak for and didn’t. I’d have to back on here or rewatch it to remember why I was so irritated though!
posted on 21/6/24
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
posted on 21/6/24
Croatia was really the first game he needed to make a tactical tweak for and didn’t. I’d have to back on here or rewatch it to remember why I was so irritated though!
---------------------------------------------
I certainly thought he had to make a tactical change during that game when Croatia started dominating the wide areas in the latter stages of normal time and extra-time.
We couldn't cope with their overloads and the midfield had far too much space to cover horizontally and he just let things play out like that until the final whistle.
posted on 21/6/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That maybe so but the reason you make tactical tweaks is so things like that happening don’t come back to bite you.
posted on 21/6/24
That and it’s international level, we aren’t really talking in depth tactics here as it doesn’t really happen, it’s just the basics of reacting to the opposition and situation in game and hopefully getting the balance right in the first place.
posted on 21/6/24
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 20 minutes ago
Croatia was really the first game he needed to make a tactical tweak for and didn’t. I’d have to back on here or rewatch it to remember why I was so irritated though!
---------------------------------------------
I certainly thought he had to make a tactical change during that game when Croatia started dominating the wide areas in the latter stages of normal time and extra-time.
We couldn't cope with their overloads and the midfield had far too much space to cover horizontally and he just let things play out like that until the final whistle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s pretty much how I remember it. I can’t bring myself to watch it again!
posted on 21/6/24
I find the feeling of losing is worse with England because major tournaments only come along every two years and they're over in a flash.
2021 was incredibly hard to take.
posted on 21/6/24
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That maybe so but the reason you make tactical tweaks is so things like that happening don’t come back to bite you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s just the name of the game when you play against better teams in international football. Especially when it’s international bottlers like England, they’re almost an inevitability.
posted on 21/6/24
Too add a point RE international tournament, I think they are important but it’s more on a basic level that any of us would implement on a FM save. Make sure you have have the right balance and right players in each position.
I thought our tactics were wrong in the 2018WC, it was abundantly clear by this point that the midfield trio of Dele/Lingard/Hendo was overrun against any decent midfield and RLC (who was good against Belgium) should play alongside Hendo instead of Dele (I also thought Rose should’ve played instead of Young by then).
However the tactics were good last Euros (bar Scotland) and last WC. They have been abysmal this tournament.
posted on 21/6/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yeah but you overrate tactical tweaks. The biggest issues was Kane not squaring to Sterling was what lost us that game, not tactical tweaks. At 2-0 we’d have had such belief we could win it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That maybe so but the reason you make tactical tweaks is so things like that happening don’t come back to bite you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s just the name of the game when you play against better teams in international football. Especially when it’s international bottlers like England, they’re almost an inevitability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not the name of the game to make some of the basic errors Southgate does at times though. He’s done a lot right as England manager, his tactical choices at times have been his biggest weakness though. The games we’ve struggled in, including the two already at this tournament, have clearly not been down to players bottling it, it’s been really stupid tactical and selection choices.
Page 3 of 3