Next season is going to get ugly

… but enough about the new manager’s coupon.

At least there seems to be some competition for KDH's signature. Also we might be able to get a cast off player or two in part exchange.

Expect us to reach for the lawyers again once the record points deductions are confirmed. Cue the expressions of shock and horror at our treatment by the beastly football authorities - which may even come as a complete surprise to our owners and management .

I have to say Nuneaton - we’re in a worse predicament than even I thought we would be when we got relegated.

What I didn’t quite understand is how much we were kicking the can down the road last season by not selling players we couldn’t afford to keep and of course doing so because we were knew neither the EPL or EFL could do anything.

We took a gamble (as usual) on getting promoted to make that work, if we hadn’t it would have finished us off as a going concern. As it is - we now have no money to spend, a record points deduction to deal with and a club that frankly no decent manager in their right mind wants to touch

Basically it’s end game for Top. I don’t think he recovers from next season. If the fans alert starting to turn last season as we bulldozed the championship then I can’t imagine what’s going to happen as they’re faced with unprecedented ticket price increases to watch a team under Steve Cooper get ripped apart every week.

I at least thought the guy might be given half a chance to get 3 or 4 players in - but this is brutal and I know fans who are absolutely seething with Top

You might be right, I suspect a worse performance this season than Direby managed may well get a really bad reaction. We'll see what happens - I'm not expecting anything much good, but at least we have a manager in place, one who is more suited to the upcoming battle.

I’m expecting nothing from this season. We’ll just work ourselves up if we start to have hope!

The mess created by 2021 followed by the relegation shambles will be felt at our club for a very very long time. FFP is going to absolutely goose us this season. It seems that clubs are finding a way around some of the rules by swapping youth players.

I actually don’t think losing KDH is that bad. Yes he’s a good technician but is he irreplaceable? I’d say he is. And Cooper may want to build the team differently and he and Winks would be overkill in the sideways backwards stakes if we go with a back 3.

So I actually don’t think it’s the end of the world if KDH goes. This season is looking like a depressing long hard slog. Let’s hope Cooper can get them fighting enough that we make a go of it. It’s all we can ask!

"I actually don’t think losing KDH is that bad. Yes he’s a good technician but is he irreplaceable?"

If we can't spend money on an adequate replacement because of the financial situation we got ourselves into thanks to the Top and Rudkin clown show then yes, he is irreplaceable. Take his goal contributions from last season away and we're preparing to be playing Plymouth again this season.

But yes, I am afraid this season is already looking like a very long and very miserable one. Every thing the club have made since securing promotion - from the title celebration antics to the price increases, to hiring Cooper (I am still not onboard, sorry) and now having to sell KDH just screams of a club that is making poor decisions on top of poor decisions.

Even with the probability of a points penalty, I was still hopeful that we might finish ahead of three other clubs. Southampton, Ipswich and one other is all we would need. But now I am resigned to relegation before a ball is kicked. We will be this season's Sheffield United and there's nothing to persuade me otherwise at this stage. I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow mess up the Fatawu signing at this point.

I predict this will be the season when the ownership comes under sustained criticism from the fans in a way that hasn't been present this far. The ticket price increases seemed to be the moment that opened pandora's box for many. I can see Top having a massive strop at some point and either selling up or taking a back seat. Both would probably be for the best at this point.

Foxello - not really disagreeing with anything you've said, but who do you see buying the club that would improve matters? Presumably the first thing they ought do is to acquire a competent DoF?

Mersey the poor decisions have continued since 2021 and mean we are in for far worse punishment both in this season and the long run.

Let’s be absolutely clear - the shambles of 2021 have seen us breach FFP for 22-23. There was still an opportunity to avoid breaching 23-24 which apparently even with the KDH sale is likely to happen. The reason we are set for a second deduction is because when we were relegated, we refused to shift certain players on we could no longer afford.

Iheanacho, Ndidi, even KDH could and arguably should have been moved on. But the club refused. In their arrogance they believed they were untouchable and that it would be better to get promoted, kick the can down the road and then hope to survive and deal with whatever came. That’s a dreadful and very costly mistake

So let’s not kid ourselves this comes back to one fateful summer. That was the start - the huge turning point. The next shambles was the summer of 2022 where we put ourselves under an embargo and breached by a mile anyway - getting relegated in the process

We then followed that up by refusing to our cloth when we got relegated and were now going to pay a very high penalty indeed

So let’s be honest and talk about the uncomfortable truth Mersey won’t face - we’re still making mistakes. And lots of them.

comment by Nuneaton_fox (U7936)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
Foxello - not really disagreeing with anything you've said, but who do you see buying the club that would improve matters? Presumably the first thing they ought do is to acquire a competent DoF?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who could buy the club and improve matters? Literally practically anyone perhaps with the exception of the Venkys. It will take time but someone has to come in and start to rebuild because Top is incapable

comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 2 hours, 14 minutes ago
Mersey the poor decisions have continued since 2021 and mean we are in for far worse punishment both in this season and the long run.

Let’s be absolutely clear - the shambles of 2021 have seen us breach FFP for 22-23. There was still an opportunity to avoid breaching 23-24 which apparently even with the KDH sale is likely to happen. The reason we are set for a second deduction is because when we were relegated, we refused to shift certain players on we could no longer afford.

Iheanacho, Ndidi, even KDH could and arguably should have been moved on. But the club refused. In their arrogance they believed they were untouchable and that it would be better to get promoted, kick the can down the road and then hope to survive and deal with whatever came. That’s a dreadful and very costly mistake

So let’s not kid ourselves this comes back to one fateful summer. That was the start - the huge turning point. The next shambles was the summer of 2022 where we put ourselves under an embargo and breached by a mile anyway - getting relegated in the process

We then followed that up by refusing to our cloth when we got relegated and were now going to pay a very high penalty indeed

So let’s be honest and talk about the uncomfortable truth Mersey won’t face - we’re still making mistakes. And lots of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the purpose of debate 99, I really can’t agree that the ownership have continued to make mistakes after last season’s debacle.

They picked a manager that got us back up first time of asking unlike Leeds. They couldn’t move on the players you suggested despite trying. We wanted to move on Dana, Soumare and others but we couldn’t. The mistake was already made in giving them long term contracts and not selling key players so that was ok.

I believe we’re trying to rectify the mistakes but it can’t happen overnight. The Cooper appointment has been broadilu applauded within the game if not by the fans. We targeted Potter which was still ambitious. We’re trying to get the finances back in check. Yes it’s a mess; but I’m not sure what more we can do other than playing the system better.

Try to imagine a hypothetical scenario whereby the club was bought by new owners in 2021. Then imagine that in the next 3 years, those new owners had the following record:

- A decline that resulted in the club going from 5th, FA Cup Winners and European Semi-Finalists, to relegation within less than 2 years - the biggest decline in Premier League history;

- Breaking a successful transfer model that had become the blueprint for any middle-sized club that aims to compete with the big 6;

- Spent tens of millions on players who did not improve the team

- Stuck by an underperforming manager who had criticised the club and was practically begging to be sacked, only sacking him when relegation was a practical inevitability;

- A haphazard search for a new manager that went from Graham Potter to Jesse Marsch before settling on Dean Smith;

- After a successful summer transfer window, failing to sign a key player to fit your new manager's idea, p*ss*ng off that manager and leaving your squad weaker:

- Getting charged with a financial breach for your earlier poor decision making;

- After getting over the line, making fans angry with off field antics and increasing ticket prices, including match tickets by 30%;

- introducing a £25 charge for physical season tickets under the guise of being environmentally friendly, whilst printing out 30,000 clappers every other week

- Another managerial change to replace the guy you p*ss*d off, starting with Graham Potter and ending up with a guy who had a 20% win record at your local rivals;

- Selling your best player because you are on the brink of a second financial penalty due to all the poor decision making you have made during this period.

Under this scenario, I would hazard a guess that these new owners would be regarded as a massive failure who had set the club back years, if not decades.

comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 2 hours, 14 minutes ago
Mersey the poor decisions have continued since 2021 and mean we are in for far worse punishment both in this season and the long run.

Let’s be absolutely clear - the shambles of 2021 have seen us breach FFP for 22-23. There was still an opportunity to avoid breaching 23-24 which apparently even with the KDH sale is likely to happen. The reason we are set for a second deduction is because when we were relegated, we refused to shift certain players on we could no longer afford.

Iheanacho, Ndidi, even KDH could and arguably should have been moved on. But the club refused. In their arrogance they believed they were untouchable and that it would be better to get promoted, kick the can down the road and then hope to survive and deal with whatever came. That’s a dreadful and very costly mistake

So let’s not kid ourselves this comes back to one fateful summer. That was the start - the huge turning point. The next shambles was the summer of 2022 where we put ourselves under an embargo and breached by a mile anyway - getting relegated in the process

We then followed that up by refusing to our cloth when we got relegated and were now going to pay a very high penalty indeed

So let’s be honest and talk about the uncomfortable truth Mersey won’t face - we’re still making mistakes. And lots of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the purpose of debate 99, I really can’t agree that the ownership have continued to make mistakes after last season’s debacle.

They picked a manager that got us back up first time of asking unlike Leeds. They couldn’t move on the players you suggested despite trying. We wanted to move on Dana, Soumare and others but we couldn’t. The mistake was already made in giving them long term contracts and not selling key players so that was ok.

I believe we’re trying to rectify the mistakes but it can’t happen overnight. The Cooper appointment has been broadilu applauded within the game if not by the fans. We targeted Potter which was still ambitious. We’re trying to get the finances back in check. Yes it’s a mess; but I’m not sure what more we can do other than playing the system better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real? 😂😂😂😂

They at NO POINT tried to shift on players that had value in the market - the ones I mentioned. What they tried to shift were the players they didn’t want and that other clubs didn’t want either. That’s not how cutting your cloth works Mersey - you sell your highly valued assets because YOU HAVE TO.

The mental gymnastics you perform to protect these owners is astonishing. When are you going to wake up and realise they are STILL making mistakes?

They wouldn’t sell players they wanted to keep despite needing to in order to avoid breaching. That meant they kept a squad that gave the club a highly unfair advantage in the championship against clubs who were trying to comply. And you think that’s good decision making? Because they hired a guy who used a squad far too good to get us out of the division we were in?

FFS mate wake up! We are getting a double digit points deduction - not just for 2022 - for this year as well. It’s one of the reasons Enzo walked rather than doing a McKenna and rejecting interest from Chelsea and the likes of United. The club is in the bin because of the owners and the decisions they STILL make like errrrr keeping Rudkin

When are you going to accept it?

comment by Foxello - "a miserable Rodgers obsessed weirdo" (U6985)
posted 20 minutes ago
Try to imagine a hypothetical scenario whereby the club was bought by new owners in 2021. Then imagine that in the next 3 years, those new owners had the following record:

- A decline that resulted in the club going from 5th, FA Cup Winners and European Semi-Finalists, to relegation within less than 2 years - the biggest decline in Premier League history;

- Breaking a successful transfer model that had become the blueprint for any middle-sized club that aims to compete with the big 6;

- Spent tens of millions on players who did not improve the team

- Stuck by an underperforming manager who had criticised the club and was practically begging to be sacked, only sacking him when relegation was a practical inevitability;

- A haphazard search for a new manager that went from Graham Potter to Jesse Marsch before settling on Dean Smith;

- After a successful summer transfer window, failing to sign a key player to fit your new manager's idea, p*ss*ng off that manager and leaving your squad weaker:

- Getting charged with a financial breach for your earlier poor decision making;

- After getting over the line, making fans angry with off field antics and increasing ticket prices, including match tickets by 30%;

- introducing a £25 charge for physical season tickets under the guise of being environmentally friendly, whilst printing out 30,000 clappers every other week

- Another managerial change to replace the guy you p*ss*d off, starting with Graham Potter and ending up with a guy who had a 20% win record at your local rivals;

- Selling your best player because you are on the brink of a second financial penalty due to all the poor decision making you have made during this period.

Under this scenario, I would hazard a guess that these new owners would be regarded as a massive failure who had set the club back years, if not decades.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. Absolutely this. Why on earth can’t our good friend see it?? Love him to bits but Jesus……

We agree to disagree 👍

comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
comment by Foxello - "a miserable Rodgers obsessed weirdo" (U6985)
posted 20 minutes ago
Try to imagine a hypothetical scenario whereby the club was bought by new owners in 2021. Then imagine that in the next 3 years, those new owners had the following record:

- A decline that resulted in the club going from 5th, FA Cup Winners and European Semi-Finalists, to relegation within less than 2 years - the biggest decline in Premier League history;

- Breaking a successful transfer model that had become the blueprint for any middle-sized club that aims to compete with the big 6;

- Spent tens of millions on players who did not improve the team

- Stuck by an underperforming manager who had criticised the club and was practically begging to be sacked, only sacking him when relegation was a practical inevitability;

- A haphazard search for a new manager that went from Graham Potter to Jesse Marsch before settling on Dean Smith;

- After a successful summer transfer window, failing to sign a key player to fit your new manager's idea, p*ss*ng off that manager and leaving your squad weaker:

- Getting charged with a financial breach for your earlier poor decision making;

- After getting over the line, making fans angry with off field antics and increasing ticket prices, including match tickets by 30%;

- introducing a £25 charge for physical season tickets under the guise of being environmentally friendly, whilst printing out 30,000 clappers every other week

- Another managerial change to replace the guy you p*ss*d off, starting with Graham Potter and ending up with a guy who had a 20% win record at your local rivals;

- Selling your best player because you are on the brink of a second financial penalty due to all the poor decision making you have made during this period.

Under this scenario, I would hazard a guess that these new owners would be regarded as a massive failure who had set the club back years, if not decades.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. Absolutely this. Why on earth can’t our good friend see it?? Love him to bits but Jesus……
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see and agree with most of this.

comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 30 minutes ago
We agree to disagree 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And in the end I think we have to end our debates there Mersey. Not because we dont agree - but more importantly to me, because you’re now actively refusing to engage whenever hard evidence is put in front of you. You slink off every single time and the reason is because you’re run out of arguments. So after you make a very lame attempt (again) to defend the owners - every single time you’re questioned by me, Nuneaton or Foxello - you either avoid the question or simply say ‘I agree to disagree” or even more bizarrely - you make out you agree with some of what’s said.

It’s just avoidance. You’ve been doing it for 2 years and i absolutely have no problem with anyone backing our owners IF they agree to engage in healthy debate and attempt to back up what they say. You’re not doing that. You’re having a go and then when it’s handed back to you on a plate, you’re running off and hiding before we go through the cycle once again

It’s tiring and it’s a shame but I’m afraid I have to filter you. Again this isn’t because we have a difference of opinion - it’s because of how you’re defending it. It’s become impossible to debate with you. Enjoy this season mate because you’ve absolutely earned it

I

I know that looks really harsh and it probably is, but if you look at our exchanges over the last 2 years - they always go down the same predictable path. Filtering just stops that from happening and it saves us both a lot of time and energy endlessly going through this loop.

comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 12 hours, 59 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 2 hours, 14 minutes ago
Mersey the poor decisions have continued since 2021 and mean we are in for far worse punishment both in this season and the long run.

Let’s be absolutely clear - the shambles of 2021 have seen us breach FFP for 22-23. There was still an opportunity to avoid breaching 23-24 which apparently even with the KDH sale is likely to happen. The reason we are set for a second deduction is because when we were relegated, we refused to shift certain players on we could no longer afford.

Iheanacho, Ndidi, even KDH could and arguably should have been moved on. But the club refused. In their arrogance they believed they were untouchable and that it would be better to get promoted, kick the can down the road and then hope to survive and deal with whatever came. That’s a dreadful and very costly mistake

So let’s not kid ourselves this comes back to one fateful summer. That was the start - the huge turning point. The next shambles was the summer of 2022 where we put ourselves under an embargo and breached by a mile anyway - getting relegated in the process

We then followed that up by refusing to our cloth when we got relegated and were now going to pay a very high penalty indeed

So let’s be honest and talk about the uncomfortable truth Mersey won’t face - we’re still making mistakes. And lots of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the purpose of debate 99, I really can’t agree that the ownership have continued to make mistakes after last season’s debacle.

They picked a manager that got us back up first time of asking unlike Leeds. They couldn’t move on the players you suggested despite trying. We wanted to move on Dana, Soumare and others but we couldn’t. The mistake was already made in giving them long term contracts and not selling key players so that was ok.

I believe we’re trying to rectify the mistakes but it can’t happen overnight. The Cooper appointment has been broadilu applauded within the game if not by the fans. We targeted Potter which was still ambitious. We’re trying to get the finances back in check. Yes it’s a mess; but I’m not sure what more we can do other than playing the system better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mersey, you've agreed with most of Foxello's points. Virtually all of these failings can be laid at the door of one person - our DoF.

You're not sure what more we can do? The answer to that is replace Rudders with somebody more competent, something that Top has singularly failed to do. This inaction is what is making me gradually come round to the need for new owners. I'm not there yet, I'm still very wary about change in ownership because we could end up with somebody worse, but another poor year in the Prem - which looks increasingly likely - might prove the tipping point.

He’s filtered Nuneaton so he won’t be able to respond on this thread. And I’ll be honest that’s a good thing because he isn’t really debating the points you raise - if you read his responses carefully he’s either swerving them - or in the case of your other question on ‘what will it take to make you lose faith’, he’s disregarding what’s happened up to this season and putting in a set of seemingly ever changing conditions for him to apparently lose faith in Top:

We all know he never will. Just look at some of his arguments;

He’s moved the goalposts on what constitutes as owner failure multiple times to suit his argument

He’s made countless excuses for Top by pointing fingers at FFP.

He has accepted Rudkin is a poor DoF but wont admit that Top keeping him is evidence of him continuing to make mistakes

He’s convinced that the only real mistakes the owners have made is the summer of 2021 and keeping Rodgers for too long.

He’s convinced we’re trying to return to the sustainable model of the past yet can’t provide any evidence to back this up

To the contrary rather than bring sustainable - the evidence points to more financial breaches for refusing to sell assets other clubs wanted to gain an unfair advantage

The guy is a likeable poster but he’s a waste of time to debate with. No respect for people who shift the goalposts to support their own views

By every single metric, whether it be on field, financial or fan engagement, King Power's ownership has been pretty appalling since 2021. Anyone defending or excusing Top is basing it on previous success and/or attachment on a personal level.

On a separate note, it is starting to irritate me that whilst other clubs have worked out how to play these ludicrous PSR rules at their own game with hilariously overpriced academy transfers, our owners have chosen to either sell our best player by midnight or accept another likely points penalty. Not even the slightest indication of us trying something clever or imaginative like other clubs are doing - we are just either accepting that we lose our most creative player or we commit another breach. It's maddening that we haven't attempted something similar. Why not sell Daniel Iversen to someone for an over inflated fee like others are doing and then agreeing to buy another young kid? It just seems like we're sitting back and doing nothing to play the rules.

Also, can anybody tell me what the benefit of KP owning Leuven has for Leicester City? We haven't even attempted to use them for any benefit other than occasionally loaning them our players, who then never get seen again. Look at how Brighton have used USG to get past rules to bring in Mitoma and Adingra. We haven't even attempted anything similar bar that stupid Hirst deal. It's just ridiculous that we have a sister club that we never use for the benefit of us.

No imagination from the owners. These rules are a pile of p*ss designed to protect the big boys, but they exist and we haven't even attempted to bend them. It's gobsmacking incompetence.

Word on the rumour mill is that the players have been told we are likely to get a 19 point penalty for our breach of PSR and unwillingness to cooperate with the process.

Little point in playing out the season if that proves to be the case.

Wow. I mean I’d be really surprised if that’s big a points deduction unless it really is multiple breaches. You get 9 for going into administration don’t you? I’m still clinging on to the possibility that it’s a single breach and it’s between 8-10 points.

Either way it’s immaterial - even if we had no deduction, we’re Sheffield United next season and we’re getting battered. No wonder Enzo walked at the first opportunity he had

That's disappointing if true. We could easily end the season on negative points. We'd definitely end up in court with that size of penalty.

Little sense in getting worked up about it, we'll hopefully find out what it actually is shortly. Then we can be enraged if appropriate.