The quality of the defenders matter. Sol Campbell and Ashley Cole were much better defenders than anything Wenger had before or since.
So because there was one defender from pre-Wenger you totally discredit Wenger? 😂😂
Adams described Keown as someone who was very insecure about his own performances, always needing reassurances from others, yet he was the main man when the back 4 were Lauren, Toure, Campbell and Cole?
Lauren was a CM converted to rb, Toure plucked from obscurity as a young and rash player and Cole was developed from the academy. Wenger had nothing to do with them and Campbell, who joined from bitter rivals cos of the boss, forming a successful back line?
You didn't touch on the defensive masterclass of the 2006 run to the CL final. Keown was long gone by then...
It wasn't until about 2010/11 that defensively we became poor - but the whole team quality was in decline due to the stadium costs and selling players.
Everyone knows that Wenger's mistake in the later years, even taking into account the financial burden of the stadium, was the midfield and thinking we could get away with ball players against the likes of Stoke, West Brom etc never mind the more powerful and athletic midfields of Chelsea, Man Utd and then City.
If Yaya Toure had been more patient or Abou Diaby not been done by Dan Smith, maybe we would have seen something different.
Wenger did have his faults. But those were more on the scouting and player acquisition. And to be fair to him, he never claimed to have those skills, and it was Danny Fiszman's fault for not realising that.
But Wenger didn't have any issues setting up teams. He was an exceptional coach, pretty much acknowledged by most coaches not names Souness.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 6 hours, 12 minutes ago
So because there was one defender from pre-Wenger you totally discredit Wenger? 😂😂
Adams described Keown as someone who was very insecure about his own performances, always needing reassurances from others, yet he was the main man when the back 4 were Lauren, Toure, Campbell and Cole?
Lauren was a CM converted to rb, Toure plucked from obscurity as a young and rash player and Cole was developed from the academy. Wenger had nothing to do with them and Campbell, who joined from bitter rivals cos of the boss, forming a successful back line?
You didn't touch on the defensive masterclass of the 2006 run to the CL final. Keown was long gone by then...
It wasn't until about 2010/11 that defensively we became poor - but the whole team quality was in decline due to the stadium costs and selling players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not just Adams saying it, it’s well known, Sol Campbell has said similar stuff too. Steve Bould was paid to chew gum & look glum, he wasn’t allowed to properly coach the defence.
The fact that our defence declined over time & NEVER recovered is not a coincidence, it cannot all be blamed on lack of money for decent players because we still had superb players in other areas - Wenger was unfortunately a control freak & prevented us from improving our defence after he’d allowed it to decline.
It’s very clear in my opinion but we just disagree.
But clearly Wenger declined as a manager over the years, as is natural, and so did Arsenal’s standing in English football. To then suggest that Wenger at his peak was always this terrible coach with a defence and it was all down to Keown is facking stupid.
We went downhill because David Dein left the board in 2007. He had assumed the role of director of football after George Graham left, long before it was even popular in Europe. So the quality of incoming players decreased, not that Wenger didn't know how to coach 'defenders'.
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 1 day, 2 hours ago
But clearly Wenger declined as a manager over the years, as is natural, and so did Arsenal’s standing in English football. To then suggest that Wenger at his peak was always this terrible coach with a defence and it was all down to Keown is facking stupid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger´s decline came when the oil barons came into the game. Wenger´s approach was pretty conventional and it kept Arsenal at least in the CL or in Europe.
But yeah the gap between the elite of the PL and Arsenal was obviously visible.
Lee Dixon :
======================
"George [Graham] drilled us into very knowledgeable individuals, and a defence that could almost play with its eyes shut. I don't know whether Arsene could do that. Well he couldn't. That's not his style, he is not that knowledgeable about the defensive side of the game. He doesn't push people around on the training pitch; he creates environments.
A perfect example of that is Ashley Cole. Ash couldn't defend to save his life when he got into the Arsenal team - and he'd agree with me. But he had arguably one of the best coaches around for him in Tony Adams standing next to him.
Tony had [Ashley Cole] on a piece of string. Arsene didn't coach him once."
==========================
It's very clear who coached the defence - & it wasn't Wenger.
But you said earlier that Wenger wouldn’t let Bould do defensive training, I assume because he would do it himself. Now you are saying he didn’t do defensive coaching at all, so which is it?
The numbers tell a story.
The 5 seasons pre-Wenger we conceded an average of 38.6 but only scored an average of 55.
In the Wenger/Adams together seasons the average conceded dropped significantly to 33.2 despite the team being visually and statistically more attacking (67 average a season scored).
Once Adams retired we scored even more (75/season) yet there wasn't a significant decline in goals conceded (34/season over 7 years).
Would seriously question the influence of Keown in the 2 years after Adams retired - I would question if he was even a "legacy" defender. He was dumped, then his return coincided with the worst performing era of the above and his significance to the team in his last 2 seasons was minimal. One of the most over-rated Arsenal players going.
And those quotes from Dixon are clearly hyperbole.
Souness, top player, dirty bastirt but was a product of his playing period, not a top manager imo and if he doesn't like someone or something he will go out his way put them down without too much of what he says being either true or very accurate at times
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 9 hours, 19 minutes ago
And those quotes from Dixon are clearly hyperbole.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you would think they were - because they don't fit your narrative...
comment by Bats Uncensored (U18355)
posted 11 hours, 46 minutes ago
But you said earlier that Wenger wouldn’t let Bould do defensive training, I assume because he would do it himself. Now you are saying he didn’t do defensive coaching at all, so which is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I'm saying Wenger would not allow Bould to coach the defence because he was a control freak, but he didn't do hardly any of it either, because he couldn't.
How hard is this to understand ?
Coincidence Ashley first got into the PFA Team of the Year after Adams retired?
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Souness on Wenger...
Page 2 of 2
posted on 12/10/24
The quality of the defenders matter. Sol Campbell and Ashley Cole were much better defenders than anything Wenger had before or since.
posted on 12/10/24
So because there was one defender from pre-Wenger you totally discredit Wenger? 😂😂
Adams described Keown as someone who was very insecure about his own performances, always needing reassurances from others, yet he was the main man when the back 4 were Lauren, Toure, Campbell and Cole?
Lauren was a CM converted to rb, Toure plucked from obscurity as a young and rash player and Cole was developed from the academy. Wenger had nothing to do with them and Campbell, who joined from bitter rivals cos of the boss, forming a successful back line?
You didn't touch on the defensive masterclass of the 2006 run to the CL final. Keown was long gone by then...
It wasn't until about 2010/11 that defensively we became poor - but the whole team quality was in decline due to the stadium costs and selling players.
posted on 12/10/24
Everyone knows that Wenger's mistake in the later years, even taking into account the financial burden of the stadium, was the midfield and thinking we could get away with ball players against the likes of Stoke, West Brom etc never mind the more powerful and athletic midfields of Chelsea, Man Utd and then City.
If Yaya Toure had been more patient or Abou Diaby not been done by Dan Smith, maybe we would have seen something different.
posted on 12/10/24
Wenger did have his faults. But those were more on the scouting and player acquisition. And to be fair to him, he never claimed to have those skills, and it was Danny Fiszman's fault for not realising that.
But Wenger didn't have any issues setting up teams. He was an exceptional coach, pretty much acknowledged by most coaches not names Souness.
posted on 12/10/24
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 6 hours, 12 minutes ago
So because there was one defender from pre-Wenger you totally discredit Wenger? 😂😂
Adams described Keown as someone who was very insecure about his own performances, always needing reassurances from others, yet he was the main man when the back 4 were Lauren, Toure, Campbell and Cole?
Lauren was a CM converted to rb, Toure plucked from obscurity as a young and rash player and Cole was developed from the academy. Wenger had nothing to do with them and Campbell, who joined from bitter rivals cos of the boss, forming a successful back line?
You didn't touch on the defensive masterclass of the 2006 run to the CL final. Keown was long gone by then...
It wasn't until about 2010/11 that defensively we became poor - but the whole team quality was in decline due to the stadium costs and selling players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not just Adams saying it, it’s well known, Sol Campbell has said similar stuff too. Steve Bould was paid to chew gum & look glum, he wasn’t allowed to properly coach the defence.
The fact that our defence declined over time & NEVER recovered is not a coincidence, it cannot all be blamed on lack of money for decent players because we still had superb players in other areas - Wenger was unfortunately a control freak & prevented us from improving our defence after he’d allowed it to decline.
It’s very clear in my opinion but we just disagree.
posted on 12/10/24
But clearly Wenger declined as a manager over the years, as is natural, and so did Arsenal’s standing in English football. To then suggest that Wenger at his peak was always this terrible coach with a defence and it was all down to Keown is facking stupid.
posted on 12/10/24
We went downhill because David Dein left the board in 2007. He had assumed the role of director of football after George Graham left, long before it was even popular in Europe. So the quality of incoming players decreased, not that Wenger didn't know how to coach 'defenders'.
posted on 13/10/24
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 1 day, 2 hours ago
But clearly Wenger declined as a manager over the years, as is natural, and so did Arsenal’s standing in English football. To then suggest that Wenger at his peak was always this terrible coach with a defence and it was all down to Keown is facking stupid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger´s decline came when the oil barons came into the game. Wenger´s approach was pretty conventional and it kept Arsenal at least in the CL or in Europe.
But yeah the gap between the elite of the PL and Arsenal was obviously visible.
posted on 13/10/24
Lee Dixon :
======================
"George [Graham] drilled us into very knowledgeable individuals, and a defence that could almost play with its eyes shut. I don't know whether Arsene could do that. Well he couldn't. That's not his style, he is not that knowledgeable about the defensive side of the game. He doesn't push people around on the training pitch; he creates environments.
A perfect example of that is Ashley Cole. Ash couldn't defend to save his life when he got into the Arsenal team - and he'd agree with me. But he had arguably one of the best coaches around for him in Tony Adams standing next to him.
Tony had [Ashley Cole] on a piece of string. Arsene didn't coach him once."
==========================
It's very clear who coached the defence - & it wasn't Wenger.
posted on 14/10/24
But you said earlier that Wenger wouldn’t let Bould do defensive training, I assume because he would do it himself. Now you are saying he didn’t do defensive coaching at all, so which is it?
posted on 14/10/24
The numbers tell a story.
The 5 seasons pre-Wenger we conceded an average of 38.6 but only scored an average of 55.
In the Wenger/Adams together seasons the average conceded dropped significantly to 33.2 despite the team being visually and statistically more attacking (67 average a season scored).
Once Adams retired we scored even more (75/season) yet there wasn't a significant decline in goals conceded (34/season over 7 years).
Would seriously question the influence of Keown in the 2 years after Adams retired - I would question if he was even a "legacy" defender. He was dumped, then his return coincided with the worst performing era of the above and his significance to the team in his last 2 seasons was minimal. One of the most over-rated Arsenal players going.
posted on 14/10/24
And those quotes from Dixon are clearly hyperbole.
posted on 14/10/24
Souness, top player, dirty bastirt but was a product of his playing period, not a top manager imo and if he doesn't like someone or something he will go out his way put them down without too much of what he says being either true or very accurate at times
posted on 14/10/24
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 9 hours, 19 minutes ago
And those quotes from Dixon are clearly hyperbole.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you would think they were - because they don't fit your narrative...
posted on 14/10/24
comment by Bats Uncensored (U18355)
posted 11 hours, 46 minutes ago
But you said earlier that Wenger wouldn’t let Bould do defensive training, I assume because he would do it himself. Now you are saying he didn’t do defensive coaching at all, so which is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I'm saying Wenger would not allow Bould to coach the defence because he was a control freak, but he didn't do hardly any of it either, because he couldn't.
How hard is this to understand ?
posted on 14/10/24
Coincidence Ashley first got into the PFA Team of the Year after Adams retired?
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