Bricks
I think you've missed the entire point of the article.
For once it wasn't about GDP.. It was about the feelings inside.
When they are 26 with a child, you have to ask if they had enough slapped legs??
.............
not once...
never, i was an only child you see. maybe this has been counter -productive as mrs rebel says i behave like a spoilt brat somtimes...
hence my postings
LPP, I don't think you read thoroughly. Whenever I post a negative comment, I make a point to say 'I'm still proud to be a wanderer, but...'
There's nothing wrong with voicing a negative opinion. Before moving to the states, I'd had a season ticket every year since I was 4 years old. Throughout that time, I have vocalised my negative thoughts. And guess what? I came back year after year.
If all you have to base your opinion on what kid of supporter I am is some angry comments during a game, you really should reserve judgement.
To the Hatecamel, this really is a fantastic post, to which I fully agree.
Rebel
I'm an only child.. Meant I got more..
More Presents and Slaps...
For once it wasn't about GDP.. It was about the feelings inside
---
Maybe the fans should have made their feelings inside clear 10 years ago and said to the board " don't borrow money and show ambition. Let's get relegated instead as this Prem lark is a bit rich for us".
We've all been to the lower divisions and it has it's charm in a way.
Maybe we could turn our hotel into a supermarket?
I've got to admit to being surprised and a little disappointed by Bricks' posts. He's got a great insight into the club and posts with authority 90%+ of the time.
Bricks, maybe you should turn your shares in Burnden Leisure into a soul.
LH
I accept what the OP is trying to say and it doesn't take Einstein to check the old programs to see that in
92/93 (D3) our average home gate was 5.5k
93.94 (D2) " 6k
94/95 (D1) " 6k rising to 15k when promotion became inevitable.
History says over half our current fans will desert us if we get relegated and it's fairly obvious that the ones who remain will be very loyal indeed and love their club through the hard times as well as the good, as I myself did. Most wont.
What I find hard is that the OP is suggesting that relegation isn't so bad and we should just accept it and not fight tooth and nail to retain Prem status after 10 years in it, out of loyalty to Coyle.
There's 28 games left and if Owen Coyle shows no sign of putting up a sign that he is capable of fighting to retain our status then he should be replaced.
No other club Prem club would accept surrender so why should we?
I'm certainly not & neither will the club.
RB, why did you never express your willing to do the same when Megson was here?
Megson was targetted for being disliked.
He was binned on 18 pts from 19 games which was not relegation form. 6 from 10 is. If Coyle can get 12 from the next 9 I'll be delighted as we'll be back on survival form, but the way we are playing atm suggests this is a big ask and unless things turn straight away, a futile task.
Megson also didn't have the tough start or injury issues that Coyle has had.
Bricks wrote:
"History says over half our current fans will desert us if we get relegated and it's fairly obvious that the ones who remain will be very loyal indeed and love their club through the hard times as well as the good, as I myself did. Most wont."
====
Hmm, you're not comparing apples with apples with your comparison, are you? You're making a statement and using stats from a time when the club hadn't been anywhere near the top flight for 15 years to support your assertion that all the fans will clear off if we go down.
Here is a league table showing average league attendances for BWFC home games from 1994/05 to 2001/02:
94/5 - Burnden, Div 1; 13,029
95/6 - Burnden, PL; 18,822
96/7 - Burnden, Div 1; 15,826
97/8 - Reebok, PL; 24,352
98/9 - Reebok, Div 1; 18,240
99/0 - Reebok, Div 1; 14,384
00/1 - Reebok, Div 1; 16,106
01/2 - Reebok, PL; 25,097
And on top of all of this, overall league average attendance across the spectrum is up 40% since the mid 1990s - more people are watching football in person.
So, history does NOT say that over half our current fans will desert us if we get relegated. You're not special because you will stay, Bricks, you're in the majority.
The article was about getting behind the club whatever division we are in, not an attempt to mask relegation as anything other than really bad news.
Megson also didn't have the tough start or injury issues that Coyle has had
---
Or bad luck, bad reffing or players who didn't play for him when they crossed the white line.
Lots of excuses but no self criticism or showing any sign of who/what our best 11 is, our best formation and our best tactics are.
I want Coyle as much as anyone to turn it around but from what I've seen it will be some turn around and I don't think he has that many games to pull it off.
Bad luck and bad redding or subject to opinion. I stated facts.
But let's state opinion. Megson did not have the dressing room, people skills, any positivity with his methods, the football was horrific, his PR skills were terrible, and I felt he didn't care.
After every game, I genuinely believe Coyle is upset for the club. He cares, and he is bringing in the right type of player. He is still hampered by the ridiculous wages and fees Megson gave for some players.
Coyle cares for the club, Megson never did.
The Prem is not a charisma competition like big brother, but a multi million pound results based business.
When the board have their monthly KPI meeting, the top indicator up for discussion is league points total and league position because afterall we are a football club.
a little bit off topic this, but still somthing im worried about, maybe sombody could enlighten me?
lets say we get relegated and the clubs financial position is a lot worse than anyone anticipated - we do a 'pompy' ...only one step worse and go full blown 'bang' as in no bolton wanderers.
what would happen?
who would 'own' the reebok?
who would 'own' the BWFC name?
what would happen to the 'club' as a whole?
would we start again from the bottom and become a kind of FC united?
would we get help from...well anyone?
just wonderd...
Crazy all I am saying is that a large number of people are somehow of the opinion that Owen Coyle MUST go and that relegation would be the absolute end of life as we know it. In fact some seem to believe we are doomed already. If you think I've been harsh then I apologise. As I state in my post I do not for one moment dount you are a true trotter fan just as I believe Bricks is also a loyal supporter of the men in white shirts even though he doesn't get to every single match.
It was perhaps unwise of me to name you and Rebel in the post but the point I am trying to make is that although the venue and opposition may change the fundamentals of being a fan do not. It's all too easy in the Premiership era to lose sight of that fact as if football only matters in the top flight especially for a club like ours that has been here for a long time. Many of our fans now simply were NOT there in the division 4 days and I for one am very glad for them. However, if we did go down and Owen Voyle remained as manager (I see that as an impossibility by the way. One or the other might happen but not both) then life in the Championship would not necessarily be worse for the fans than it is now. In fact it might be a little better from the point of view of cost in terms of ticket prices and so on.
While I know Bricks would say its a financial disaster and I agree with him to a point I know the trotters would continue to exist, continue to play and people would continue to follow them.
I never meant to suggest that you or Rebel would become absent and I apologise if you believed that. The simple fact is that at my age I remember when things were so bad we were worried if we'd have a club to support at all much less one outside the top flight. We pulled through that bad time and I'm certain that if we were to be relegated we would pull through again.
What I find hard is that the OP is suggesting that relegation isn't so bad and we should just accept it and not fight tooth and nail to retain Prem status after 10 years in it, out of loyalty to Coyle.
.............................................
I suggest no such thing Bricks.
What I do say if you read it properly is that moaning about the finances and why relegation will harm the turnover maybe we should be making it clear to the players we want them to do better for other reasons.
I want them to do better because I don't like to see us rolling over and submitting . I remember Wanderers fighting tooth and nail for every point and we need to see it again.
Look at how Stoke play week in and week out and we'll see the reason why on Sunday. The fans there make it known they are at one with the players and SUPPORT them. That the players are an extension of them and their love for,and pride in, their club. I see little of this from Bolton fans these days and it saddens me no end.
I'm not advocating blind devotion or ignoring the financial implications of relegation, just that maybe things will get better if we look at it differently and will them on instead of the way I see things happening more and more.
It was perhaps unwise of me to name you and Rebel in the post but the point I am trying to make is that although the venue and opposition may change the fundamentals of being a fan do not.
...........
dont worry about it...
i agree with everything you say actually....
kb is fritzed, the post looks like a dog's dinner. Coyle not Voyle, doubt not dount but I'm sure you understand it anyway.
Lofthouse on the pitch begging people to join lifeline..
We were well on the way to going bump.
If Burnden Leisure was liquidated, all its assets would be sold off to pay back creditors.
A new club would rise from the ashes, no doubt, but whether it would be allowed to use the name Bolton Wanderers would be a legal point dependent upon the insolvency terms. If I were to take a guess I would say the new club would be able to use the name, as it isn't the name of the company that owns the club.
The fans there make it known they are at one with the players and SUPPORT them. That the players are an extension of them and their love for,and pride in, their club. I see little of this from Bolton fans these days and it saddens me no end.
..
this annoys me too...
as you know i sit (stand) under the screen in the bok...were the 'noisy' fans sit.
ive sat elswere too, for instance if going with mrs rebel or swapping with a mate so i can take my nephew etc - and the atmosphere is dire! i mean dead as doornob...nobody sings anything...'we are the one and only wanderers' is the only thing that gets attempted and then it fizzles out after 3 seconds...
i dont think our 'hardcore' fan base is big wnough OR the club are not doing enough to assist with atmosphere in games...
the music is dire for a start.
also...i understand the club designated the north stand as a singing stand...does anyone sit there? and if so can you answer me this...
do you sit there as its a 'singing' stand...or do you sit there as the tickets are cheap?
i think most fans sit there as the tickets are cheap - thats fair enough. one thing i feel would improve the atmosphere is make all the cheap tickets in the ESL...the atmostphere and singing could move down the whole stand then instead of having the north stand isolated from the singers (both home and away)
just a thought...
Only just seen your article HateCamel, splendid stuff.
Your prose sums up the nostalgia I feel have for the 'good old days'.
No one's mentioned the Lever end pies and Camp (really) coffee yet.
My early heroes were Johnny Byrom ,Syd Farrimond, Eddie Hopkinson etc etc.
However, good results or bad results, the weekend always hinged around the Wanderers, couldn't wait to buy the Buff from the guy outside Moor Lane station after walking up from Burnden.
Forty three years on from my first 'Wanderers experience, it is still the theatre of a game that enthralls,
and after reading your brilliant article, I'm looking forward to Sunday even more!
Let's lift the roof.
C.O.Y.W.M!!
Crazy all I am saying is that a large number of people are somehow of the opinion that Owen Coyle MUST go and that relegation would be the absolute end of life as we know it
*****
Well .. I don't think that way ..I've watched Bolton in every division, and watching your team do well - in any league - is a joy. But likewise - watching your team playing badly is a pain - and part of the remedy for that malaise is debating how best to put it right.
However - you cannot ignore the cash cow that is the Premier League.... Well ..I can ..and you can ... but the Eddie Davis's and Phil Gartsides of this world sure can't ..and won't. It's pretty much ' Prem or bust ' as far as they're concerned ...and because of that, they'll do anything to preserve Bolton's Premiership status ..including changing the manager if we look like we're going down.
So let's not kid ourselves with stuff like ' if we go down, Owen is the best man to bring us back up ". That may well be true, and I wouldn't argue against that .. but I don't see how he would automatically be given the chance to prove it - because, if we're in the same at the end of the year as we are now .... Owen will be replaced. The people who run the club can't afford NOT to try and keep us up, whatever it costs. To the likes of you and me ...we'll support Bolton in whatever division they play in ... but the ED's and PG's of this world NEED the Prem ...and a football club in trouble changes manager's ...that's what they do ... and that's the reality of the situation.
Owen's still got time to sort it ... but the only way he will be in charge at Bolton in January is if performances ..and more importantly - points gained - have dragged us out the bottom 3 .....
As I said in my post Owen may stay OR we may get relegated but there is no way both will happen. But this post is not so much about finances and personnel anyway, it's about the feeling you get supporting this club. Like you lastof I've been to matches in all four divisions and seen managers and players and even owners come and go but through it all there has been just ONE Bolton Wanderers Football Club and I love it just as much today as I did at my first game in 1976. Whether Owen stays or goes is of course down to him and the board to decide but while I personally feel he should stay and will be disappointed if he isn't given the chance to turn things around I won't stop loving Bolton if he goes. The club was here long before any of us were born and I have no doubt that it will still be here long after we're all gone.
HateCamel has perfectly encapsulated what it means to support your club and in some ways it seems almost churlish to start discussing things like finances and personnel on this thread which is after all about emotion more than logic.
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Love and Pride
Page 2 of 3
posted on 3/11/11
Bricks
I think you've missed the entire point of the article.
For once it wasn't about GDP.. It was about the feelings inside.
posted on 3/11/11
When they are 26 with a child, you have to ask if they had enough slapped legs??
.............
not once...
never, i was an only child you see. maybe this has been counter -productive as mrs rebel says i behave like a spoilt brat somtimes...
hence my postings
posted on 3/11/11
LPP, I don't think you read thoroughly. Whenever I post a negative comment, I make a point to say 'I'm still proud to be a wanderer, but...'
There's nothing wrong with voicing a negative opinion. Before moving to the states, I'd had a season ticket every year since I was 4 years old. Throughout that time, I have vocalised my negative thoughts. And guess what? I came back year after year.
If all you have to base your opinion on what kid of supporter I am is some angry comments during a game, you really should reserve judgement.
To the Hatecamel, this really is a fantastic post, to which I fully agree.
posted on 3/11/11
Rebel
I'm an only child.. Meant I got more..
More Presents and Slaps...
posted on 3/11/11
For once it wasn't about GDP.. It was about the feelings inside
---
Maybe the fans should have made their feelings inside clear 10 years ago and said to the board " don't borrow money and show ambition. Let's get relegated instead as this Prem lark is a bit rich for us".
We've all been to the lower divisions and it has it's charm in a way.
Maybe we could turn our hotel into a supermarket?
posted on 3/11/11
I've got to admit to being surprised and a little disappointed by Bricks' posts. He's got a great insight into the club and posts with authority 90%+ of the time.
Bricks, maybe you should turn your shares in Burnden Leisure into a soul.
posted on 3/11/11
LH
I accept what the OP is trying to say and it doesn't take Einstein to check the old programs to see that in
92/93 (D3) our average home gate was 5.5k
93.94 (D2) " 6k
94/95 (D1) " 6k rising to 15k when promotion became inevitable.
History says over half our current fans will desert us if we get relegated and it's fairly obvious that the ones who remain will be very loyal indeed and love their club through the hard times as well as the good, as I myself did. Most wont.
What I find hard is that the OP is suggesting that relegation isn't so bad and we should just accept it and not fight tooth and nail to retain Prem status after 10 years in it, out of loyalty to Coyle.
There's 28 games left and if Owen Coyle shows no sign of putting up a sign that he is capable of fighting to retain our status then he should be replaced.
No other club Prem club would accept surrender so why should we?
I'm certainly not & neither will the club.
posted on 3/11/11
RB, why did you never express your willing to do the same when Megson was here?
posted on 3/11/11
Megson was targetted for being disliked.
He was binned on 18 pts from 19 games which was not relegation form. 6 from 10 is. If Coyle can get 12 from the next 9 I'll be delighted as we'll be back on survival form, but the way we are playing atm suggests this is a big ask and unless things turn straight away, a futile task.
posted on 3/11/11
Megson also didn't have the tough start or injury issues that Coyle has had.
posted on 3/11/11
Bricks wrote:
"History says over half our current fans will desert us if we get relegated and it's fairly obvious that the ones who remain will be very loyal indeed and love their club through the hard times as well as the good, as I myself did. Most wont."
====
Hmm, you're not comparing apples with apples with your comparison, are you? You're making a statement and using stats from a time when the club hadn't been anywhere near the top flight for 15 years to support your assertion that all the fans will clear off if we go down.
Here is a league table showing average league attendances for BWFC home games from 1994/05 to 2001/02:
94/5 - Burnden, Div 1; 13,029
95/6 - Burnden, PL; 18,822
96/7 - Burnden, Div 1; 15,826
97/8 - Reebok, PL; 24,352
98/9 - Reebok, Div 1; 18,240
99/0 - Reebok, Div 1; 14,384
00/1 - Reebok, Div 1; 16,106
01/2 - Reebok, PL; 25,097
And on top of all of this, overall league average attendance across the spectrum is up 40% since the mid 1990s - more people are watching football in person.
So, history does NOT say that over half our current fans will desert us if we get relegated. You're not special because you will stay, Bricks, you're in the majority.
The article was about getting behind the club whatever division we are in, not an attempt to mask relegation as anything other than really bad news.
posted on 3/11/11
Megson also didn't have the tough start or injury issues that Coyle has had
---
Or bad luck, bad reffing or players who didn't play for him when they crossed the white line.
Lots of excuses but no self criticism or showing any sign of who/what our best 11 is, our best formation and our best tactics are.
I want Coyle as much as anyone to turn it around but from what I've seen it will be some turn around and I don't think he has that many games to pull it off.
posted on 3/11/11
Bad luck and bad redding or subject to opinion. I stated facts.
But let's state opinion. Megson did not have the dressing room, people skills, any positivity with his methods, the football was horrific, his PR skills were terrible, and I felt he didn't care.
After every game, I genuinely believe Coyle is upset for the club. He cares, and he is bringing in the right type of player. He is still hampered by the ridiculous wages and fees Megson gave for some players.
Coyle cares for the club, Megson never did.
posted on 3/11/11
The Prem is not a charisma competition like big brother, but a multi million pound results based business.
When the board have their monthly KPI meeting, the top indicator up for discussion is league points total and league position because afterall we are a football club.
posted on 3/11/11
a little bit off topic this, but still somthing im worried about, maybe sombody could enlighten me?
lets say we get relegated and the clubs financial position is a lot worse than anyone anticipated - we do a 'pompy' ...only one step worse and go full blown 'bang' as in no bolton wanderers.
what would happen?
who would 'own' the reebok?
who would 'own' the BWFC name?
what would happen to the 'club' as a whole?
would we start again from the bottom and become a kind of FC united?
would we get help from...well anyone?
just wonderd...
posted on 3/11/11
Crazy all I am saying is that a large number of people are somehow of the opinion that Owen Coyle MUST go and that relegation would be the absolute end of life as we know it. In fact some seem to believe we are doomed already. If you think I've been harsh then I apologise. As I state in my post I do not for one moment dount you are a true trotter fan just as I believe Bricks is also a loyal supporter of the men in white shirts even though he doesn't get to every single match.
It was perhaps unwise of me to name you and Rebel in the post but the point I am trying to make is that although the venue and opposition may change the fundamentals of being a fan do not. It's all too easy in the Premiership era to lose sight of that fact as if football only matters in the top flight especially for a club like ours that has been here for a long time. Many of our fans now simply were NOT there in the division 4 days and I for one am very glad for them. However, if we did go down and Owen Voyle remained as manager (I see that as an impossibility by the way. One or the other might happen but not both) then life in the Championship would not necessarily be worse for the fans than it is now. In fact it might be a little better from the point of view of cost in terms of ticket prices and so on.
While I know Bricks would say its a financial disaster and I agree with him to a point I know the trotters would continue to exist, continue to play and people would continue to follow them.
I never meant to suggest that you or Rebel would become absent and I apologise if you believed that. The simple fact is that at my age I remember when things were so bad we were worried if we'd have a club to support at all much less one outside the top flight. We pulled through that bad time and I'm certain that if we were to be relegated we would pull through again.
posted on 3/11/11
What I find hard is that the OP is suggesting that relegation isn't so bad and we should just accept it and not fight tooth and nail to retain Prem status after 10 years in it, out of loyalty to Coyle.
.............................................
I suggest no such thing Bricks.
What I do say if you read it properly is that moaning about the finances and why relegation will harm the turnover maybe we should be making it clear to the players we want them to do better for other reasons.
I want them to do better because I don't like to see us rolling over and submitting . I remember Wanderers fighting tooth and nail for every point and we need to see it again.
Look at how Stoke play week in and week out and we'll see the reason why on Sunday. The fans there make it known they are at one with the players and SUPPORT them. That the players are an extension of them and their love for,and pride in, their club. I see little of this from Bolton fans these days and it saddens me no end.
I'm not advocating blind devotion or ignoring the financial implications of relegation, just that maybe things will get better if we look at it differently and will them on instead of the way I see things happening more and more.
posted on 3/11/11
It was perhaps unwise of me to name you and Rebel in the post but the point I am trying to make is that although the venue and opposition may change the fundamentals of being a fan do not.
...........
dont worry about it...
i agree with everything you say actually....
posted on 3/11/11
kb is fritzed, the post looks like a dog's dinner. Coyle not Voyle, doubt not dount but I'm sure you understand it anyway.
posted on 3/11/11
Lofthouse on the pitch begging people to join lifeline..
We were well on the way to going bump.
posted on 3/11/11
If Burnden Leisure was liquidated, all its assets would be sold off to pay back creditors.
A new club would rise from the ashes, no doubt, but whether it would be allowed to use the name Bolton Wanderers would be a legal point dependent upon the insolvency terms. If I were to take a guess I would say the new club would be able to use the name, as it isn't the name of the company that owns the club.
posted on 3/11/11
The fans there make it known they are at one with the players and SUPPORT them. That the players are an extension of them and their love for,and pride in, their club. I see little of this from Bolton fans these days and it saddens me no end.
..
this annoys me too...
as you know i sit (stand) under the screen in the bok...were the 'noisy' fans sit.
ive sat elswere too, for instance if going with mrs rebel or swapping with a mate so i can take my nephew etc - and the atmosphere is dire! i mean dead as doornob...nobody sings anything...'we are the one and only wanderers' is the only thing that gets attempted and then it fizzles out after 3 seconds...
i dont think our 'hardcore' fan base is big wnough OR the club are not doing enough to assist with atmosphere in games...
the music is dire for a start.
also...i understand the club designated the north stand as a singing stand...does anyone sit there? and if so can you answer me this...
do you sit there as its a 'singing' stand...or do you sit there as the tickets are cheap?
i think most fans sit there as the tickets are cheap - thats fair enough. one thing i feel would improve the atmosphere is make all the cheap tickets in the ESL...the atmostphere and singing could move down the whole stand then instead of having the north stand isolated from the singers (both home and away)
just a thought...
posted on 3/11/11
Only just seen your article HateCamel, splendid stuff.
Your prose sums up the nostalgia I feel have for the 'good old days'.
No one's mentioned the Lever end pies and Camp (really) coffee yet.
My early heroes were Johnny Byrom ,Syd Farrimond, Eddie Hopkinson etc etc.
However, good results or bad results, the weekend always hinged around the Wanderers, couldn't wait to buy the Buff from the guy outside Moor Lane station after walking up from Burnden.
Forty three years on from my first 'Wanderers experience, it is still the theatre of a game that enthralls,
and after reading your brilliant article, I'm looking forward to Sunday even more!
Let's lift the roof.
C.O.Y.W.M!!
posted on 3/11/11
Crazy all I am saying is that a large number of people are somehow of the opinion that Owen Coyle MUST go and that relegation would be the absolute end of life as we know it
*****
Well .. I don't think that way ..I've watched Bolton in every division, and watching your team do well - in any league - is a joy. But likewise - watching your team playing badly is a pain - and part of the remedy for that malaise is debating how best to put it right.
However - you cannot ignore the cash cow that is the Premier League.... Well ..I can ..and you can ... but the Eddie Davis's and Phil Gartsides of this world sure can't ..and won't. It's pretty much ' Prem or bust ' as far as they're concerned ...and because of that, they'll do anything to preserve Bolton's Premiership status ..including changing the manager if we look like we're going down.
So let's not kid ourselves with stuff like ' if we go down, Owen is the best man to bring us back up ". That may well be true, and I wouldn't argue against that .. but I don't see how he would automatically be given the chance to prove it - because, if we're in the same at the end of the year as we are now .... Owen will be replaced. The people who run the club can't afford NOT to try and keep us up, whatever it costs. To the likes of you and me ...we'll support Bolton in whatever division they play in ... but the ED's and PG's of this world NEED the Prem ...and a football club in trouble changes manager's ...that's what they do ... and that's the reality of the situation.
Owen's still got time to sort it ... but the only way he will be in charge at Bolton in January is if performances ..and more importantly - points gained - have dragged us out the bottom 3 .....
posted on 3/11/11
As I said in my post Owen may stay OR we may get relegated but there is no way both will happen. But this post is not so much about finances and personnel anyway, it's about the feeling you get supporting this club. Like you lastof I've been to matches in all four divisions and seen managers and players and even owners come and go but through it all there has been just ONE Bolton Wanderers Football Club and I love it just as much today as I did at my first game in 1976. Whether Owen stays or goes is of course down to him and the board to decide but while I personally feel he should stay and will be disappointed if he isn't given the chance to turn things around I won't stop loving Bolton if he goes. The club was here long before any of us were born and I have no doubt that it will still be here long after we're all gone.
HateCamel has perfectly encapsulated what it means to support your club and in some ways it seems almost churlish to start discussing things like finances and personnel on this thread which is after all about emotion more than logic.
Page 2 of 3