Well it does not exist anymore so no.

Yes it does. Just because it has a different sponsor does not mean the league does not exist.

As someone who watches the Magners (or Pro12 - still getting used to calling it that...) week in week out I'd love to say yes, but I'm not comfortable saying that hand on heart yet.

I like the consistency of the GP, or the Aviva or whatever it's called these days! Normally you know who the good teams are, and you have to play out of your skin to beat them. Whereas form is a bit more variable in the Pro12, a couple of the Irish teams notwithstanding.

I do think that the Pro12 isn't short of quality though.

I've never seen any of the Top 14. I'm not sure what to make of that.

Mojiebhoy

Ok seriously no its not the best league. It has a couple of European Giants in Leinster and Munster, but is lacking in depth. Its not competitive enough to put it simply.

That said it has produced 2 teams who have won the HC 4 times in 6 years which is amazing considering what i have said above.

Gecko the flip side of your argument is that the Magners is more competitive. In Munster and Leinster you have two of the best teams in Europe. The rest get to play against that every week. Look at week one in Heineken Cup, remember that the Magners league has nearly ever team in the competition unlike the Guiness Prem and Top 14 whose worst teams will not be in it.

Pool 1
2 home wins for Magners League

Pool 2
2 away wins for Magners League, Edinburgh and Cardiff

Pool 3
Glasgow win, Leinster draw away in France

Pool 4
Airioni got beat, Ulster won

Pool 5
Ospreys won, Treviso got beat

Pool 6
Connacht got beat.


3 defeats for debatably the 3 worst teams in the league. You could also throw the Scottish teams in that argument.

If anything it was a great weekend for the Magners teams.

Mojiebhoy

sorry mate clearly you are not understanding the rules by which teams qualify for the Heineken cup.

The teams from the Pro12 are from 4 different countries or rugby unions what ever your prefer. SO its not a question of how good they are in relation to all other teams or how good the league is in relation to other leagues. It is a merit system relating to how good they are against other teams from the same country!

See list below and in particular notice the Italian contingent of which both teams are given Heineken cup places for simply PARTICIPATING in the HC. Where the other Pro12 nations select the teams based on performance.

For example. 4 teams from Ireland and the ERC allocate 3 places for Irish teams out of the 22 available places in the Heineken cup. It goes like this:

"22 places are awarded by country, with each country deciding how to allocate their alloted places

England: six teams (selected by performance in Aviva Premiership and Anglo-Welsh Cup)
France: six teams (selected by performance in Top 14 Championship)
Ireland: three teams (selected by performance in Pro12)
Wales: three teams (selected by performance in Pro12
Scotland: two teams (selected by participation in Pro12)
Italy: two teams (selected by participation in Pro12)"

Now this year is special because we have all for irish teams in the HC...

"See list below and in particular notice the Italian contingent of which both teams are given Heineken cup places for simply PARTICIPATING in the HC."

That should read: "simply PARTICIPATING in the Pro12"

Sorry if I was unclear, but I don't think it is as competitive, and if anything the 'shock' results are because it isn't always taken as seriously a competition as the GP (or AP).

Frequently you'll see one of the bigger sides getting a shock defeat against a supposed lesser team, but with some of the teams (probably Welsh regions are quite bad examples for this) they'll capitulate because what's the harm in losing. A few years back we had this situation with Munster, where they would put out A teams for the Magners and save their big guns for the HC. This has improved, but there's still not enough incentive to win every game.

I honestly think, that if the Ospreys (and Blues and Scarlets to a lesser extent) were playing in a ferociously competed league week in week out, they wouldn't be such a flop when it comes to the knockout stages of the HC. They have a mental frailty that should have been beaten out of them in a more competitive league but its like they've been molly coddled. I'm not blaming the league and the other teams - cos its the Ospreys and the other regions themselves who are part of the problem.

Like I said, there are quality sides in the Pro12, and the results this weekend have shown that. But asides from the Irish teams, who I have to take my hat off to for flying the Magner's flag in the HC, they haven't shown enough grit to make a name for themselves outside of the pool stages...

Apart from Munster and Leinster, the rest of the league are pretty average. No, it is not better than the AP, and if you are as I suspect, basing your argument on the first round of HC games this year, you're pretty dull.