No one else feel the same?
was a great player in his prime, think he should have retired before the RWC though, as he was past it by then
Very true, thank you for commenting
I think it says it all that Dan Carter etc used to want to 'be' him when they were younger.
Edinspur
Well he was wonderful with England and MJ leading a powerful pack giving Wilko the platform he needed. Any Fly Half would have been delighted to play behind such a dominant pack
His kicking and records speak for themselves tho being the man he is he does not show it and indeed he acknowledges the massive effect those fatties had and indeed he would not have gained that record behind any other pack. Not a complete player like carter is but undoubtedly one of the great Fly Halves. He is on a short list of the greatest but not at the top. I can think of at least 1 irish and 2 welsh FH who were better back in the good old days.
I wish him really well. Getting a nice pay cheque from the french these days... well at-least one English man has a good relationship with that lot hahaha
Thanks for the memories Wilko...as a prop myself I havent got a clue about back play or any of that nonsense but I would say if you're defending for your life theres few 10s if any you'd rather have in your team than Jonny.
Well done Wilko, a proper English legend.
Sporty and Portly
+1 Thats a stone cold fact mate! Best defensive FH i have ever seen. Incredible ability to tackle like a bloody back row forward.
To be fair DingBatMan, I am not saying he is the best due to his ability. More for the Leadership than anything, He was the main guy in our World Cup winning season and helped a hell of a lot the world cup after.
What with being the highest ever points scorer too, he has to be in contention for the best FH of all time.
I also think he brought a new revival for the sport in the country and like I said earlier all the world class fly halfs of now wanted to be Wilko when he was younger.
On top of that he is gorgeous
Deffo my favourite rugby player ever.
Ohh err Edin
I do think Jonny was well on his way to becoming one of the best ever FHs until he had that run of terrible injuries, his attacking / running game was never the same after 2004 imho.
I agree with parts of what you and Ding say to be honest, he's priceless for what he did for English Rugby but maybe eclipsed by other players on the international stage.
I often wonder 'what if' over his injuries. Had he not been out for so long, he would have been well out of sight on the points total, and I think the dip England had after the 2003 RWC may not have happened.
None the less, he was a consummate pro, and set the bar by which all others are now judged.
Sporty
Havent seen you about ja in a while.
Any of you seen Wilkos work out? Its pretty cool.
I am glad he has called it a day, he hasnt been good enough for England in a long time. As for him being the "main man" in 03 I have to disagree, he was only the main man in the eyes of the media. Richard Hill deserves that praise, the best NH player ever (who I watched play anyway). I wouldnt attirbute England loss of form on JW either after the WC triumph, we lost many players to injury and retirement.
Jonny Wilkinson WAS the main man in the 2003 World Cup triumph...... by a country mile.
He was the catalyst and fulcrum. Much like the Superstar Quarter Back in American Football, in the Dan Marino and Joe Theisman mould.
As for Richard Hill, he was OK. He just did everything in slow motion.
Bailiff
Incorrect mate, JW was by far and away the best Fly half in the world during the 03 WC and that period, but you do a disservice to the rest of the team with your comment.
the "catalyst and fulcrum" was not JW but in fact it was the power of the England Pack and led by Martin Johnson they were grizzled and never took a step backwards. They held the ball and drove it forward and they inevitably forced their opposition to give away penalties. They were the "catalyst and fulcrum" their is no doubt about it. Jonny was certainly the tip of the sword.
Jonny was the perfect Fly half to play behind that pack because of his deadly accuracy with the boot and indeed they had a wonderful defence where Jonny was also amazing. Not just a good defensive Fly Half but just a world class defender full stop which is very very rare in a Fly Half.
Could England have won that WC with another Fly Half?
I believe yes they could have. And something that people forget is that Jonney took 2 failed attempts at that famous Drop goal before getting it on the 3rd attempt. He and England can thank Martin Johnson, Richard Hill and the rest of that great pack for giving Jonny the opportunity to miss 2 attempts and finally get the 3rd. There is no doubt that any decent fly half in the world would get that same drop goal if they were put in the same position and given 3 shots at it. No doubt.
What sets Wilkinson apart from decent Fly Halves and makes him great was his accuracy. His ability to kick the dead ball was amazing. I believe that there has never been nor is there now a better dead ball kicker. For that he was feared by oppositions. "For god's sake don't give them penalties inside our half!" was the mantra for many a manager facing England and JW.
He may have been the best player in the England team, not by a long way though. He was just the front man leading the impressive charge in what was an incredible squad.
Part of me believes that if we had the same pack, 9 & 10 from then, and the backs from now we would be incredible. (obviously drop that donkey Tindall who should've never played for England in the first place)
That we would have a ridiculously good team. There were no incredible backs bar Robinson in the 03 squad. Whereas Tuillagi and Happy are IMO the best Centres England have had for god knows how long. On top of the Ashton is quality and Cueto maybe less so, and Foden is good.
Edinspur
I can agree with that :D
To be fair and Honest about the currant squad i don't think they are bad, but certainly mismanaged. Also i think there is too much Hype surrounding them and they have been led to believe too manay amazing things.
Someone needs to sit them down and have a reality check. It the players can come together and play as a team they could be very good.
The WC showed us the the 6N's win was not such a big deal, the 6Nation was not contested by the other teams as they were looking to the WC and building. So England won. But this next 6 Nations will show us exactly where they are. If they challenge Wales and France i will be impressed. I believe they may finish 4th behind Wales, France, Ireland I dot know who will win it but my money would be on Either Wales or France.
"I believe that there has never been nor is there now a better dead ball kicker"
-----
Neil Jenkins and Hugo Porta would be tied for all time no.1 imo
True Dingbat.
Our England team normally reshuffles to prep itself for the next world cup though so we rarely win the 6Ns after the WC due to an inexperienced squad. I think on the whole we can keep the pack, try play our better players who missed out like Lawes.
Get Youngs and Flood (or another fly half) playing a lot more together. Make Tuilagi the focal point as he is unreal, theres some kids at Northampton who are ace, get them in as the other centre. Then Ashton, Foden and another Winger. We would have a seriously good squad.
Then get Tony Pulis to manage and we can take on anyone
Jonny Wilkinson WAS the main man in the 2003 World Cup triumph...... by a country mile.
He was the catalyst and fulcrum. Much like the Superstar Quarter Back in American Football, in the Dan Marino and Joe Theisman mould.
As for Richard Hill, he was OK. He just did everything in slow motion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, just no. As dingbat said the pack ran the show in 02-03. Within that pack Hill, MJ, Dallaglio and Back were the star men but Hill was the best by far. To say he was "OK" is either foolish or ignorant.
As for England only winning the 6N because the other nations were not focused, wow. Thats all I can say.
Dont often get a good rugby debate on here. What teams do you guys support btw?
Im a bit of a Saracens fan myself, not cos Im a glory hunter just cos I saw them when they played Edinburgh one time and I am originally from London as well. However I do like Northampton as they have a very exciting young almost 'southern hemisphere' team.
Aristodemus. I do agree that the pack was ridiculous, arguably the best pack in WC history, yet Wilko was the star man. The 'David Beckham' of the group.
Just wanted to add my support to the lads that are pointing out the England pack as the fulcrum of the 03 world cup win. That pack was pretty amazing with one of the best if not the best back rows of all time.
I'm a Wasps fan myself but as I get older I find myself supporting most of the English clubs....to be fair they need it if things continue how they've begun this season!
Great to see some Rugby posters btw long may it continue.
Yeh deffo Portly mate.
I was gonna post if anyone saw that dive in the Saracens vs Biarratz match. Was hilarious.
Don't Often see diving in rugby well atleast out side of france. I have noticed a whole rash of french fellas falling on the ground for nothing in the last year.
Anyway. I was born and bred in Leinster played schools there so im Leinster blue through and through. My fellow fans have been very patient for years and jealous watching our Munster cousins but now finally our team is rewarding us. and boy are we feeling rewarded
@ Aristodemus
"WOW" nothing its well documented.
Mate really, can you say with honesty that france played well in the last 6 nations? their manager tried new players in nearly every game he rotated over 40 players. He was quite honest and said it didn't matter (the 6 nations) that he was building for the WC. Well he was a crazy nutter anyway and this year we will see a much stronger french team under a real manager.
Ireland Likewise were and not in secret, trying whole new patterns of play in preparation for playing in the Southern Hemisphere specifically in defence and off loading, off loading play has never been a part of the irish game to much extent, at least not in the last ten years. Always were a kicking team with O'Gara pulling the strings. This was confirmed by Brian O'Driscoll who talked about it in an interview before the England game. Ironically they finally got the patterns right that day.
Wales were all over the place trying to find the best FH for the job and satisfying the fans by giving the orange one yet another chance. While trying out lots of new players all over the park clearly building for the WC and in that case it worked out very well as we know. When you consider the quality of the kids they brought in to the side and their performances in the WC.
So ye i can say with certainty that Wales, Ireland and France were not fully in the 6 nations and used it to build toward the WC. So while not exactly uncontested certainly it was a good time for england to show good form. but it turned out to be something of a false dawn.
Arguably one of the greatest players in Rugby history
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You've truly got to be joking ?!?!?!?!? He was a good player, hell a decent player - but one of the greatest? Sorry no chance.
Oh by the way, i've met and chatted with him several times. Really top bloke and a great professional, but i'm afraid the title doesn't quite fit.....
l11dsu4ever - I still stick by it, I don't necessarily mean by terms of talent. However his achievements and what he has done for the sport has given him that accolade IMO
DingBatMan - Yeah it was a french prop, I wasn't even annoyed like I am in football. Just found it funny really.
However I also feel your harsh about the 6N win. Everyteam went for it and it has to be THE 6N to win. Every 6N before the world cup is the one in which you should be preparing your team for the WC and gaining momentum towards it. Unfortunately Ingerland disappointed where it mattered, but I still maintain that they looked the best going into the world cup and initially played the best.
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Wilko
Page 1 of 2
posted on 12/12/11
No one else feel the same?
posted on 12/12/11
was a great player in his prime, think he should have retired before the RWC though, as he was past it by then
posted on 12/12/11
Very true, thank you for commenting
I think it says it all that Dan Carter etc used to want to 'be' him when they were younger.
posted on 12/12/11
Edinspur
Well he was wonderful with England and MJ leading a powerful pack giving Wilko the platform he needed. Any Fly Half would have been delighted to play behind such a dominant pack
His kicking and records speak for themselves tho being the man he is he does not show it and indeed he acknowledges the massive effect those fatties had and indeed he would not have gained that record behind any other pack. Not a complete player like carter is but undoubtedly one of the great Fly Halves. He is on a short list of the greatest but not at the top. I can think of at least 1 irish and 2 welsh FH who were better back in the good old days.
I wish him really well. Getting a nice pay cheque from the french these days... well at-least one English man has a good relationship with that lot hahaha
posted on 12/12/11
Thanks for the memories Wilko...as a prop myself I havent got a clue about back play or any of that nonsense but I would say if you're defending for your life theres few 10s if any you'd rather have in your team than Jonny.
Well done Wilko, a proper English legend.
posted on 12/12/11
Sporty and Portly
+1 Thats a stone cold fact mate! Best defensive FH i have ever seen. Incredible ability to tackle like a bloody back row forward.
posted on 12/12/11
To be fair DingBatMan, I am not saying he is the best due to his ability. More for the Leadership than anything, He was the main guy in our World Cup winning season and helped a hell of a lot the world cup after.
What with being the highest ever points scorer too, he has to be in contention for the best FH of all time.
I also think he brought a new revival for the sport in the country and like I said earlier all the world class fly halfs of now wanted to be Wilko when he was younger.
On top of that he is gorgeous
Deffo my favourite rugby player ever.
posted on 13/12/11
Ohh err Edin
I do think Jonny was well on his way to becoming one of the best ever FHs until he had that run of terrible injuries, his attacking / running game was never the same after 2004 imho.
I agree with parts of what you and Ding say to be honest, he's priceless for what he did for English Rugby but maybe eclipsed by other players on the international stage.
posted on 13/12/11
I often wonder 'what if' over his injuries. Had he not been out for so long, he would have been well out of sight on the points total, and I think the dip England had after the 2003 RWC may not have happened.
None the less, he was a consummate pro, and set the bar by which all others are now judged.
posted on 13/12/11
Sporty
Havent seen you about ja in a while.
Any of you seen Wilkos work out? Its pretty cool.
posted on 13/12/11
I am glad he has called it a day, he hasnt been good enough for England in a long time. As for him being the "main man" in 03 I have to disagree, he was only the main man in the eyes of the media. Richard Hill deserves that praise, the best NH player ever (who I watched play anyway). I wouldnt attirbute England loss of form on JW either after the WC triumph, we lost many players to injury and retirement.
posted on 14/12/11
Jonny Wilkinson WAS the main man in the 2003 World Cup triumph...... by a country mile.
He was the catalyst and fulcrum. Much like the Superstar Quarter Back in American Football, in the Dan Marino and Joe Theisman mould.
As for Richard Hill, he was OK. He just did everything in slow motion.
posted on 14/12/11
Bailiff
Incorrect mate, JW was by far and away the best Fly half in the world during the 03 WC and that period, but you do a disservice to the rest of the team with your comment.
the "catalyst and fulcrum" was not JW but in fact it was the power of the England Pack and led by Martin Johnson they were grizzled and never took a step backwards. They held the ball and drove it forward and they inevitably forced their opposition to give away penalties. They were the "catalyst and fulcrum" their is no doubt about it. Jonny was certainly the tip of the sword.
Jonny was the perfect Fly half to play behind that pack because of his deadly accuracy with the boot and indeed they had a wonderful defence where Jonny was also amazing. Not just a good defensive Fly Half but just a world class defender full stop which is very very rare in a Fly Half.
Could England have won that WC with another Fly Half?
I believe yes they could have. And something that people forget is that Jonney took 2 failed attempts at that famous Drop goal before getting it on the 3rd attempt. He and England can thank Martin Johnson, Richard Hill and the rest of that great pack for giving Jonny the opportunity to miss 2 attempts and finally get the 3rd. There is no doubt that any decent fly half in the world would get that same drop goal if they were put in the same position and given 3 shots at it. No doubt.
What sets Wilkinson apart from decent Fly Halves and makes him great was his accuracy. His ability to kick the dead ball was amazing. I believe that there has never been nor is there now a better dead ball kicker. For that he was feared by oppositions. "For god's sake don't give them penalties inside our half!" was the mantra for many a manager facing England and JW.
posted on 14/12/11
He may have been the best player in the England team, not by a long way though. He was just the front man leading the impressive charge in what was an incredible squad.
Part of me believes that if we had the same pack, 9 & 10 from then, and the backs from now we would be incredible. (obviously drop that donkey Tindall who should've never played for England in the first place)
posted on 14/12/11
That we would have a ridiculously good team. There were no incredible backs bar Robinson in the 03 squad. Whereas Tuillagi and Happy are IMO the best Centres England have had for god knows how long. On top of the Ashton is quality and Cueto maybe less so, and Foden is good.
posted on 14/12/11
Edinspur
I can agree with that :D
To be fair and Honest about the currant squad i don't think they are bad, but certainly mismanaged. Also i think there is too much Hype surrounding them and they have been led to believe too manay amazing things.
Someone needs to sit them down and have a reality check. It the players can come together and play as a team they could be very good.
The WC showed us the the 6N's win was not such a big deal, the 6Nation was not contested by the other teams as they were looking to the WC and building. So England won. But this next 6 Nations will show us exactly where they are. If they challenge Wales and France i will be impressed. I believe they may finish 4th behind Wales, France, Ireland I dot know who will win it but my money would be on Either Wales or France.
posted on 14/12/11
"I believe that there has never been nor is there now a better dead ball kicker"
-----
Neil Jenkins and Hugo Porta would be tied for all time no.1 imo
posted on 14/12/11
True Dingbat.
Our England team normally reshuffles to prep itself for the next world cup though so we rarely win the 6Ns after the WC due to an inexperienced squad. I think on the whole we can keep the pack, try play our better players who missed out like Lawes.
Get Youngs and Flood (or another fly half) playing a lot more together. Make Tuilagi the focal point as he is unreal, theres some kids at Northampton who are ace, get them in as the other centre. Then Ashton, Foden and another Winger. We would have a seriously good squad.
Then get Tony Pulis to manage and we can take on anyone
posted on 14/12/11
Jonny Wilkinson WAS the main man in the 2003 World Cup triumph...... by a country mile.
He was the catalyst and fulcrum. Much like the Superstar Quarter Back in American Football, in the Dan Marino and Joe Theisman mould.
As for Richard Hill, he was OK. He just did everything in slow motion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, just no. As dingbat said the pack ran the show in 02-03. Within that pack Hill, MJ, Dallaglio and Back were the star men but Hill was the best by far. To say he was "OK" is either foolish or ignorant.
As for England only winning the 6N because the other nations were not focused, wow. Thats all I can say.
posted on 14/12/11
Dont often get a good rugby debate on here. What teams do you guys support btw?
Im a bit of a Saracens fan myself, not cos Im a glory hunter just cos I saw them when they played Edinburgh one time and I am originally from London as well. However I do like Northampton as they have a very exciting young almost 'southern hemisphere' team.
Aristodemus. I do agree that the pack was ridiculous, arguably the best pack in WC history, yet Wilko was the star man. The 'David Beckham' of the group.
posted on 14/12/11
Just wanted to add my support to the lads that are pointing out the England pack as the fulcrum of the 03 world cup win. That pack was pretty amazing with one of the best if not the best back rows of all time.
I'm a Wasps fan myself but as I get older I find myself supporting most of the English clubs....to be fair they need it if things continue how they've begun this season!
Great to see some Rugby posters btw long may it continue.
posted on 14/12/11
Yeh deffo Portly mate.
I was gonna post if anyone saw that dive in the Saracens vs Biarratz match. Was hilarious.
posted on 14/12/11
Don't Often see diving in rugby well atleast out side of france. I have noticed a whole rash of french fellas falling on the ground for nothing in the last year.
Anyway. I was born and bred in Leinster played schools there so im Leinster blue through and through. My fellow fans have been very patient for years and jealous watching our Munster cousins but now finally our team is rewarding us. and boy are we feeling rewarded
@ Aristodemus
"WOW" nothing its well documented.
Mate really, can you say with honesty that france played well in the last 6 nations? their manager tried new players in nearly every game he rotated over 40 players. He was quite honest and said it didn't matter (the 6 nations) that he was building for the WC. Well he was a crazy nutter anyway and this year we will see a much stronger french team under a real manager.
Ireland Likewise were and not in secret, trying whole new patterns of play in preparation for playing in the Southern Hemisphere specifically in defence and off loading, off loading play has never been a part of the irish game to much extent, at least not in the last ten years. Always were a kicking team with O'Gara pulling the strings. This was confirmed by Brian O'Driscoll who talked about it in an interview before the England game. Ironically they finally got the patterns right that day.
Wales were all over the place trying to find the best FH for the job and satisfying the fans by giving the orange one yet another chance. While trying out lots of new players all over the park clearly building for the WC and in that case it worked out very well as we know. When you consider the quality of the kids they brought in to the side and their performances in the WC.
So ye i can say with certainty that Wales, Ireland and France were not fully in the 6 nations and used it to build toward the WC. So while not exactly uncontested certainly it was a good time for england to show good form. but it turned out to be something of a false dawn.
posted on 15/12/11
Arguably one of the greatest players in Rugby history
--------------------------------------------------------------------
You've truly got to be joking ?!?!?!?!? He was a good player, hell a decent player - but one of the greatest? Sorry no chance.
Oh by the way, i've met and chatted with him several times. Really top bloke and a great professional, but i'm afraid the title doesn't quite fit.....
posted on 15/12/11
l11dsu4ever - I still stick by it, I don't necessarily mean by terms of talent. However his achievements and what he has done for the sport has given him that accolade IMO
DingBatMan - Yeah it was a french prop, I wasn't even annoyed like I am in football. Just found it funny really.
However I also feel your harsh about the 6N win. Everyteam went for it and it has to be THE 6N to win. Every 6N before the world cup is the one in which you should be preparing your team for the WC and gaining momentum towards it. Unfortunately Ingerland disappointed where it mattered, but I still maintain that they looked the best going into the world cup and initially played the best.
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