What worries me is what must the younger lads at United think when Fergie resorts to digging up the old dead wood when pushed into a corner. Scholes is obviously past it. Fergie must have very little faith in some of his squad. Or he is just plain wrong. If they were available Pogba/Morrison/Cleverly/ even Tunni could have easily done a better bench warming job than Scholes yesterday and come on and help to close the game down vs 10 men better.
But that's my point, we didn't need to do anything but pass the ball about for 40 odd minutes
..........................
That is exactly what we tried to do.
It invites trouble.
We got into trouble.
Did we get our three goals by playing tippy tappy?
Like Macca says, this is a stop-gap. Whether it proves a successful / useful / costly stop-gap remains to be seen. Aside from about two moments of rustiness, I thought Scholes was quite good with the ball yesterday.
I'd have thought that bringing him for some extra cover during an injury crisis wouldn't send anywhere near as discouraging a message to the youngsters purchasing a long-term player. In a way, the likes of Pogba and Cleverly can take it as an indication that Fergie doesn't see anyone on the market who he'd rather have in his team in the near to medium term than them.
If on the other hand Scholes did become a regular player for the rest of the season at the expense of the relative youngsters who have already broken into the side (including Anderson), then that would be very discouraging. I'd be surprised if he did but time will tell.
As for the underlying issue - could we do with high-class midfield reinforcement - I've felt this would be the best thing to spend money on since around the time Ronaldo left and it was clear that Hargreaves and Scholes wouldn't be playing a big role for us any more. Last summer I'd have liked to have recruited someone. To my mind, to have as good a selection of midfielders as we did in 2007-8, we'd have needed not only Cleverly to come good but at least one of the youth team players to be ready to make the step up AND Fletcher to be available. As it is, we've lost Scholes, Hargreaves and Fletcher from the fine stable we had when we won the CL, and added just Cleverly. But even if a mistake was made in the summer (and I hope to be proved wrong in that respect) it doesn't mean we should buy anyone who is available now, regardless of price and quality. In the situation we're in, perhaps bringing back Scholes for his cover and wisdom is the best course of action available.
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 55 seconds ago
What worries me is what must the younger lads at United think when Fergie resorts to digging up the old dead wood when pushed into a corner.
................
Exactly.
btw the same flaws that led scholes to believe he should retire remain. he is a player who his mentality would be to save fergie from himself. he is no faster, he is still not close to being suitable for a 2 man midfield. not close to being able to pair up with any of our midfielders. he use at most is in a 3 man midfield which we dont play with any consistency at all. cleverly, anderson, fletcher- pogba, morrison, keane. jones? does he believe all these years, they really cannot match what a 37 old offers?
I thought we lost balance when SAF subbed Nani for Scholes tbh. At least with Nani we had pace to break forward, but when Scholes replaced him, our tempo become slow. Scholes and Giggs should not be playing at the same time, especially against top teams. There reaction time and movement is too slow now.
Giggs lost possession countless of times because he couldn't react fast enough when closed down. It was so frustrating yesterday towards the last few minutes we tried to keep hold of possession but couldn't even manage that, ended up losing it then conceding a free kick in a dangerous area.
We may have possession against 70% of the teams in the league, but when we come up against top teams, we seem to struggle to hold on to possession.
dependabledennis
'What it tell us is that SAF and his staff all agree that the likes of Morrison & Pogba are not good enough.'
I think it tells us that they don't think Morrison and Pogba are good enough NOW. It doesn't mean they will never be good enough or ready. In fact, it doesn't say anything about Morrison, since there is no way he would be asked to play a deep midfield role keeping the ball, making simple passes, etc. You don't give a youth player his first big chance in a fierce away derby in a role that is unfamiliar to him.
SAF has shown many, many time in the past that there is no room for sentiment, so if they were good enough they'd be in, as it is Giggs and Scholes are seen as better options. Therefore, we can only conclude that the kids are not what many say they are, otherwise they'd be playing
*************************
keane? neville? his loyalty knows no bounds. that is always what is at play. if you are loyal to him he is loyal to you. its all about familiarity and people he seems to trust. it is not a bad thing unless it affects his judgement and sadly it does
I'd have thought that bringing him for some extra cover during an injury crisis wouldn't send anywhere near as discouraging a message to the youngsters purchasing a long-term player. In a way, the likes of Pogba and Cleverly can take it as an indication that Fergie doesn't see anyone on the market who he'd rather have in his team in the near to medium term than them.
.........................................
This
I think Scholes is just here to ease our current injury crisis, it is much better than bringing in a player just to cover injuries as we are not going to be buying a world class player in January anyway. So we would end up buying some decent player and he would just add to the collection of midfielders we have that just aren't good enough (at the moment)
It could easily be seen in the negative light OP wrote about though...
SAF has shown many, many time in the past that there is no room for sentiment
......................
He has proved otherwise with this masterstroke.
comment by dependabledennis (U2272) posted 23 minutes ago
What it tell us is that SAF and his staff all agree that the likes of Morrison & Pogba are not good enough.
------------------------
DD
Being not ready doesn't mean not good enough
They are both only 18.
Welbeck wasn't really ready at 18 and Clevs wasn't deemed ready until this season.at 22
Give them time mate
As I've said before the likes of Morrison and Pogba need to go out on loan and find their feet at a decent level like Cleverley did. He was at Leicester, then the season after he played at Watford where he won their player of the season award and finally got a chance to play Premier League football for Wigan and it's done him the world of good.
VC, I am not discouraged seeing Scholes back in the fold, in fact quite the opposite. Scholes may not be player of 5 years ago but generally his use of the ball - short or long - is still the best at the club.
It is definitely a short term fix but I hope Fergie has an idea who will make up the midfield over the long term. Can we rely on Ando to step it up, steer clear of injuries? Same can also be said of Cleverley. I am generally discouraged by Pogba's non involvement but I suspect it could be Fergie's way of punishing the player for not committing his future to the club or maybe he simply is not ready for first team action.
Or does he have plans to raid the transfer market, if not now but during the summer? I just hope he does not continue sticking square pegs into round holes.
Another concern, one quite evident against a valiant 10 man City side, was the quality of passing within the side, the general composure on the ball even from experienced players like Rio who feel the urge to aimlessly hoof the ball up field. Why is it difficult to retain possession? Regardless of the opposition why do our players seem consumed with nerves on the ball?
It's a slap to the young players at the club that a player has to come out of retirement to do a job for the team.
The great man got this wrong again and truth be told, his substitutions yesterday and the timings of them were ridiculous.
His subs let City back in the game and in the end we were just hanging on.
We've got young players at the club, they may not be the finished article but won't get tired after playing for 30mins.
Its great Utd have these youngsters coming through, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't sign a proven experienced midfielder. The young players will get their chance when they are ready, they have to be patient. Heck look at the Barca's academy players, they looked promising yes but they didn't start to show their full potential until they were what 22/23, some even later, likes of Xavi and Iniesta. 18 year old is too young to become full 1st teamer to play week in week out, its just not going to happen. You get the odd exception but not always.
ManUtdDaredevil
To be honest, I have actually seen Gibson put in more effort than Giggs did yesterday.
Welbeck wasn't really ready at 18 and Clevs wasn't deemed ready until this season.at 22
**********************************
that is another problem. these players have to be more patient than their other mates. see players like phil jones being able to make their big money transfers at 19 if they are playing regularly. these are young men who always want to explode as the next big thing. telling them to wait 2 yrs can be hard.
comment by The Red Side (U11275)
posted 8 minutes ago
As I've said before the likes of Morrison and Pogba need to go out on loan and find their feet at a decent level like Cleverley did. He was at Leicester, then the season after he played at Watford where he won their player of the season award and finally got a chance to play Premier League football for Wigan and it's done him the world of good.
=====
Pogba ought to show a level of commitment first towards a club that fought tooth and nail to acquire his services. If greed, at such a tender age, is the central motivation in his mind for stalling on a new deal then I fear he's on a downward spiral. Like Fergie said once you make it at a club like Utd the wealth will follow.
He has everything in his game, just lacking the experience.
Not too sure about Morrison. His attitude and off field activities are the main problem for me but like Pogba is probably the most talented produced by academy in many a year.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
ManUtdDaredevil
To be honest, I have actually seen Gibson put in more effort than Giggs did yesterday.
----
It is not so much effort but the quality he is expected to produce. A player who mostly plied his trade as a winger cannot be expected to be in central midfield - the main battle ground of the team. We lose too many battles in that area and the malaise from there spreads to the rest of the players.
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612) posted 12 minutes ago
It's a slap to the young players at the club that a player has to come out of retirement to do a job for the team.
The great man got this wrong again
-----------------------
No he did not
United's youth policy quite clearly states they do not simply throw youngsters in no matter what the situation
comment by UnitedRedMacca- I taught Rooney and Berbatov the overhead kick (U2024)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612) posted 12 minutes ago
It's a slap to the young players at the club that a player has to come out of retirement to do a job for the team.
The great man got this wrong again
-----------------------
No he did not
United's youth policy quite clearly states they do not simply throw youngsters in no matter what the situation
=============
We'll have to disagree on this one mate. He got this wrong in my opinion.
Playing Giggs and Scholes in midfield basically means we are playign with 9 men. That's why City looked better than us yesterday.
We'll have to disagree on this one mate. He got this wrong in my opinion.
Playing Giggs and Scholes in midfield basically means we are playign with 9 men.
.................
I wouldn't go that far, but SAF certainly made it a level playing field.
It is not so much effort but the quality he is expected to produce. A player who mostly plied his trade as a winger cannot be expected to be in central midfield - the main battle ground of the team. We lose too many battles in that area and the malaise from there spreads to the rest of the players.
-----------------------------------------------------
I think that Fergie's style of play always relying on wingers for attack is the reason why he seems to overlook the midfield. I mean he's got a good eye when I comes to finding good wingers, but signing quality central midfielders has always been a problem.
Wingers are not exactly central midfielders, they usually rely on pace and crosses from the side. Great at holding on to possession with is not usually what you would expect from them. Reason why we have always been deadly with counter attacks, but also prone to the odd attack coming our way surrendering possession easily, which why we need a solid defence and keeper to deal with that, proved very successful from 06-09 with Vidic, Ferdinand and VDS.
I felt sorry for Carrick. A good midfielder in his prime substituted for a 37 year old man who retired last summer and hasn't kicked a football in a competeitive game since May. What sort of message does that send to Carrick. In fact what sort of message does that send to all the players at Man Utd. Fergie doesn't have faith in them. Anderson, Carrick, Gibson have all been told they're not good enough.
Anderson, Carrick, Gibson have all been told they're not good enough.
----------------------------------------------
Well.......there is some truth in that isn't there. That is why we are crying out for a quality midfielder.
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What Kind Of Message
Page 2 of 3
posted on 9/1/12
What worries me is what must the younger lads at United think when Fergie resorts to digging up the old dead wood when pushed into a corner. Scholes is obviously past it. Fergie must have very little faith in some of his squad. Or he is just plain wrong. If they were available Pogba/Morrison/Cleverly/ even Tunni could have easily done a better bench warming job than Scholes yesterday and come on and help to close the game down vs 10 men better.
posted on 9/1/12
But that's my point, we didn't need to do anything but pass the ball about for 40 odd minutes
..........................
That is exactly what we tried to do.
It invites trouble.
We got into trouble.
Did we get our three goals by playing tippy tappy?
posted on 9/1/12
Like Macca says, this is a stop-gap. Whether it proves a successful / useful / costly stop-gap remains to be seen. Aside from about two moments of rustiness, I thought Scholes was quite good with the ball yesterday.
I'd have thought that bringing him for some extra cover during an injury crisis wouldn't send anywhere near as discouraging a message to the youngsters purchasing a long-term player. In a way, the likes of Pogba and Cleverly can take it as an indication that Fergie doesn't see anyone on the market who he'd rather have in his team in the near to medium term than them.
If on the other hand Scholes did become a regular player for the rest of the season at the expense of the relative youngsters who have already broken into the side (including Anderson), then that would be very discouraging. I'd be surprised if he did but time will tell.
As for the underlying issue - could we do with high-class midfield reinforcement - I've felt this would be the best thing to spend money on since around the time Ronaldo left and it was clear that Hargreaves and Scholes wouldn't be playing a big role for us any more. Last summer I'd have liked to have recruited someone. To my mind, to have as good a selection of midfielders as we did in 2007-8, we'd have needed not only Cleverly to come good but at least one of the youth team players to be ready to make the step up AND Fletcher to be available. As it is, we've lost Scholes, Hargreaves and Fletcher from the fine stable we had when we won the CL, and added just Cleverly. But even if a mistake was made in the summer (and I hope to be proved wrong in that respect) it doesn't mean we should buy anyone who is available now, regardless of price and quality. In the situation we're in, perhaps bringing back Scholes for his cover and wisdom is the best course of action available.
posted on 9/1/12
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 55 seconds ago
What worries me is what must the younger lads at United think when Fergie resorts to digging up the old dead wood when pushed into a corner.
................
Exactly.
posted on 9/1/12
btw the same flaws that led scholes to believe he should retire remain. he is a player who his mentality would be to save fergie from himself. he is no faster, he is still not close to being suitable for a 2 man midfield. not close to being able to pair up with any of our midfielders. he use at most is in a 3 man midfield which we dont play with any consistency at all. cleverly, anderson, fletcher- pogba, morrison, keane. jones? does he believe all these years, they really cannot match what a 37 old offers?
posted on 9/1/12
I thought we lost balance when SAF subbed Nani for Scholes tbh. At least with Nani we had pace to break forward, but when Scholes replaced him, our tempo become slow. Scholes and Giggs should not be playing at the same time, especially against top teams. There reaction time and movement is too slow now.
Giggs lost possession countless of times because he couldn't react fast enough when closed down. It was so frustrating yesterday towards the last few minutes we tried to keep hold of possession but couldn't even manage that, ended up losing it then conceding a free kick in a dangerous area.
We may have possession against 70% of the teams in the league, but when we come up against top teams, we seem to struggle to hold on to possession.
posted on 9/1/12
dependabledennis
'What it tell us is that SAF and his staff all agree that the likes of Morrison & Pogba are not good enough.'
I think it tells us that they don't think Morrison and Pogba are good enough NOW. It doesn't mean they will never be good enough or ready. In fact, it doesn't say anything about Morrison, since there is no way he would be asked to play a deep midfield role keeping the ball, making simple passes, etc. You don't give a youth player his first big chance in a fierce away derby in a role that is unfamiliar to him.
posted on 9/1/12
SAF has shown many, many time in the past that there is no room for sentiment, so if they were good enough they'd be in, as it is Giggs and Scholes are seen as better options. Therefore, we can only conclude that the kids are not what many say they are, otherwise they'd be playing
*************************
keane? neville? his loyalty knows no bounds. that is always what is at play. if you are loyal to him he is loyal to you. its all about familiarity and people he seems to trust. it is not a bad thing unless it affects his judgement and sadly it does
posted on 9/1/12
I'd have thought that bringing him for some extra cover during an injury crisis wouldn't send anywhere near as discouraging a message to the youngsters purchasing a long-term player. In a way, the likes of Pogba and Cleverly can take it as an indication that Fergie doesn't see anyone on the market who he'd rather have in his team in the near to medium term than them.
.........................................
This
I think Scholes is just here to ease our current injury crisis, it is much better than bringing in a player just to cover injuries as we are not going to be buying a world class player in January anyway. So we would end up buying some decent player and he would just add to the collection of midfielders we have that just aren't good enough (at the moment)
It could easily be seen in the negative light OP wrote about though...
posted on 9/1/12
SAF has shown many, many time in the past that there is no room for sentiment
......................
He has proved otherwise with this masterstroke.
posted on 9/1/12
comment by dependabledennis (U2272) posted 23 minutes ago
What it tell us is that SAF and his staff all agree that the likes of Morrison & Pogba are not good enough.
------------------------
DD
Being not ready doesn't mean not good enough
They are both only 18.
Welbeck wasn't really ready at 18 and Clevs wasn't deemed ready until this season.at 22
Give them time mate
posted on 9/1/12
As I've said before the likes of Morrison and Pogba need to go out on loan and find their feet at a decent level like Cleverley did. He was at Leicester, then the season after he played at Watford where he won their player of the season award and finally got a chance to play Premier League football for Wigan and it's done him the world of good.
posted on 9/1/12
VC, I am not discouraged seeing Scholes back in the fold, in fact quite the opposite. Scholes may not be player of 5 years ago but generally his use of the ball - short or long - is still the best at the club.
It is definitely a short term fix but I hope Fergie has an idea who will make up the midfield over the long term. Can we rely on Ando to step it up, steer clear of injuries? Same can also be said of Cleverley. I am generally discouraged by Pogba's non involvement but I suspect it could be Fergie's way of punishing the player for not committing his future to the club or maybe he simply is not ready for first team action.
Or does he have plans to raid the transfer market, if not now but during the summer? I just hope he does not continue sticking square pegs into round holes.
Another concern, one quite evident against a valiant 10 man City side, was the quality of passing within the side, the general composure on the ball even from experienced players like Rio who feel the urge to aimlessly hoof the ball up field. Why is it difficult to retain possession? Regardless of the opposition why do our players seem consumed with nerves on the ball?
posted on 9/1/12
It's a slap to the young players at the club that a player has to come out of retirement to do a job for the team.
The great man got this wrong again and truth be told, his substitutions yesterday and the timings of them were ridiculous.
His subs let City back in the game and in the end we were just hanging on.
We've got young players at the club, they may not be the finished article but won't get tired after playing for 30mins.
posted on 9/1/12
Its great Utd have these youngsters coming through, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't sign a proven experienced midfielder. The young players will get their chance when they are ready, they have to be patient. Heck look at the Barca's academy players, they looked promising yes but they didn't start to show their full potential until they were what 22/23, some even later, likes of Xavi and Iniesta. 18 year old is too young to become full 1st teamer to play week in week out, its just not going to happen. You get the odd exception but not always.
posted on 9/1/12
ManUtdDaredevil
To be honest, I have actually seen Gibson put in more effort than Giggs did yesterday.
posted on 9/1/12
Welbeck wasn't really ready at 18 and Clevs wasn't deemed ready until this season.at 22
**********************************
that is another problem. these players have to be more patient than their other mates. see players like phil jones being able to make their big money transfers at 19 if they are playing regularly. these are young men who always want to explode as the next big thing. telling them to wait 2 yrs can be hard.
posted on 9/1/12
comment by The Red Side (U11275)
posted 8 minutes ago
As I've said before the likes of Morrison and Pogba need to go out on loan and find their feet at a decent level like Cleverley did. He was at Leicester, then the season after he played at Watford where he won their player of the season award and finally got a chance to play Premier League football for Wigan and it's done him the world of good.
=====
Pogba ought to show a level of commitment first towards a club that fought tooth and nail to acquire his services. If greed, at such a tender age, is the central motivation in his mind for stalling on a new deal then I fear he's on a downward spiral. Like Fergie said once you make it at a club like Utd the wealth will follow.
He has everything in his game, just lacking the experience.
Not too sure about Morrison. His attitude and off field activities are the main problem for me but like Pogba is probably the most talented produced by academy in many a year.
posted on 9/1/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
ManUtdDaredevil
To be honest, I have actually seen Gibson put in more effort than Giggs did yesterday.
----
It is not so much effort but the quality he is expected to produce. A player who mostly plied his trade as a winger cannot be expected to be in central midfield - the main battle ground of the team. We lose too many battles in that area and the malaise from there spreads to the rest of the players.
posted on 9/1/12
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612) posted 12 minutes ago
It's a slap to the young players at the club that a player has to come out of retirement to do a job for the team.
The great man got this wrong again
-----------------------
No he did not
United's youth policy quite clearly states they do not simply throw youngsters in no matter what the situation
posted on 9/1/12
comment by UnitedRedMacca- I taught Rooney and Berbatov the overhead kick (U2024)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612) posted 12 minutes ago
It's a slap to the young players at the club that a player has to come out of retirement to do a job for the team.
The great man got this wrong again
-----------------------
No he did not
United's youth policy quite clearly states they do not simply throw youngsters in no matter what the situation
=============
We'll have to disagree on this one mate. He got this wrong in my opinion.
Playing Giggs and Scholes in midfield basically means we are playign with 9 men. That's why City looked better than us yesterday.
posted on 9/1/12
We'll have to disagree on this one mate. He got this wrong in my opinion.
Playing Giggs and Scholes in midfield basically means we are playign with 9 men.
.................
I wouldn't go that far, but SAF certainly made it a level playing field.
posted on 9/1/12
It is not so much effort but the quality he is expected to produce. A player who mostly plied his trade as a winger cannot be expected to be in central midfield - the main battle ground of the team. We lose too many battles in that area and the malaise from there spreads to the rest of the players.
-----------------------------------------------------
I think that Fergie's style of play always relying on wingers for attack is the reason why he seems to overlook the midfield. I mean he's got a good eye when I comes to finding good wingers, but signing quality central midfielders has always been a problem.
Wingers are not exactly central midfielders, they usually rely on pace and crosses from the side. Great at holding on to possession with is not usually what you would expect from them. Reason why we have always been deadly with counter attacks, but also prone to the odd attack coming our way surrendering possession easily, which why we need a solid defence and keeper to deal with that, proved very successful from 06-09 with Vidic, Ferdinand and VDS.
posted on 9/1/12
I felt sorry for Carrick. A good midfielder in his prime substituted for a 37 year old man who retired last summer and hasn't kicked a football in a competeitive game since May. What sort of message does that send to Carrick. In fact what sort of message does that send to all the players at Man Utd. Fergie doesn't have faith in them. Anderson, Carrick, Gibson have all been told they're not good enough.
posted on 9/1/12
Anderson, Carrick, Gibson have all been told they're not good enough.
----------------------------------------------
Well.......there is some truth in that isn't there. That is why we are crying out for a quality midfielder.
Page 2 of 3