I think players movement in general is poor. You look at the old addage of pass and move and our players still dont get it. Too often they are stood still when they receive a ball so by the time they have thought what they want to do and made a move the defender is close by. When we play balls to players making runs it makes their players worry that bit more and you tend to win free kicks as defenders lash out. Quick simple pass and moves would tear this division apart as it would constantly change the way we attack and so it wont be so predictable.
There are times when lumping it up can work but you need a guy to be busting a gut to get onto any knockdown for it to have any effect.
Barca are the best team in the world and they move a ball around quickly so why dont we try to emulate it to some extent??? Obviously we cant do the intracacy that their guys can but then we are up against players who give far more room and so opportunity
when was the last time town scored a goal from a move that took say, more than 4-5 passes???? without the opposition giving it back to us or making an almighty error...
if we slow the play down we dont score.. immaterial at a few goals to the good but critical if we are not..
we run onto too few passes, we almost akways pass to a man with his back to goal or standing still.. this is because the man playing the pass recieved the ball, stood still and played it from a static position.. one man running forward with the ball means others have to be running forward, it means the someone from the opposition has to come to the ball whilst some are running away to cover runners, bingo you have immediately knackered their defensive tactical plan of two banks of 4 when they havent got the ball..
its so simple it hurts...
The best defence we played against this season was away at Charlton and they didn't play any fancy stuff from the back. Play it to the full back if you get chance otherwise just hoof the thing as far from the danger area as possible. League 1 football - defenders defend and attackers attack.
im not sure either mccombe or p clarke are much better even given time..
imo, if the ball does not go in the net you have defended well..
they cant score directly from their own half and you give yourself time to get back into a better defensive position..
the amount of possession we give away in our own half is criminal at times.. but as the two central midfielders are nearly always stood very close to the centre backs a short pass or a sidweways pass is usually the only option other than lumping it forward..
a 20 yard forward pass to feet to someone moving into space would be a real rarity for towns centre backs....
Cas you are right Town Fans are never wrong they have voted Peter Clarke player of the year on two occasions purely because he gives his all, only this season is he been found out, How many on here questioned Jordan Rhodes, I think quite sometime ago I suggested he was our best by some distance and I was laughed at.
John Worthington possibly the worst regular central midfielder in the last 10 years was loved by many, Novak has his name sung with frequent regularity because he tries, and his effort hides in inadequacies.
Wedenesday Fans didn't rate Miller? which ones the ones on here? A throw away comment based on the handful of Wednesday Fans you know.
Of course playing at a higher level makes a difference. Its obvious in Miller just like it is Johnson and its been obvious to some for a long time that Jordan had the required quality to step up.
We tried all that a couple of seasons ago, lumping it down the channels but everyone complained about it. Now we've bought a shed load of midfield players but I think LC is still in a quandry about whether wing play is the way forward or midfield play...if either fails it's lump it. The missing ingredient is a midfield 'general', and that's Johnson , who's been injured.
Am sure he'll be back for Brentford, and when he is on the ball he'll drag their midfielders into the centre and that will open up the wings. We score 90% of our goals from crosses into the box (that's a guess but fairly near I reckon).
The thing about buying players 'with potential' ie Gobern, Robinson and McDermott is that is exactly what you get..we probably bought Miller to solidify midfield but with our best 2 CBs' still being undecided (Kay, Clarke, McCombe, Bruce, T Clark...) Miller has had to shore up at the back...If we get a settled couple of CBs maybe Miller can push up a bit.
We have weaknesses and at the moment some lads are being asked to shore these up and forego their natural games. The consequential effect is felt in other areas, further away from our goals.
Because the players are in and out so often, we remain unsettled...LC has loads of choice but the lads who come in don't make the most of their opportunity all the time.
It's frustrating, but like I said, many are younger lads and learning still.
As for fitness, Alan lee said it took him nearly all year to get to the level of fitness he's at now, and he's never been as fit as he is...as we can see in his new found mobility and impact that he's benefited, and the others will come through too.
The thing is, the side do have more to offer, we know that, we're not playing above ourselves we're more often under performing, but as we move into the final run in surely we'll see an improvement as the 'winning post' gets closer.
RW, you get very defensive very quickly:
I live in Sheffield, I could walk to Hillsborough I live that close. I work with at least 5 Sheffield Wednesday fans and play football with at least another 7 or 8, and that's before the people I socialise with. That's at least 15 unbiased opinions and 50% of them are season ticket holders, so I take their opinions on board. The one thing they said about Miller was "He'll be decent if he has someone next to him who can do 75% of the work."
I was probably the first person to say Peter Clarke was past it and that was a LONG time ago so don't know what your point is there, I think Novak serves a purpose but is limited and Worthington always was and will be a terrible footballer, so again not sure what you're getting at there.
Jordan Rhodes . I stand by everything I ever said about the lad, and I take his upturn in form as proof that I was right all along. Jordan Rhodes of 12 months ago wouldn't have scored that 4th away at Wednesday, he wouldn't have even been on the pitch. To the lads credit he's worked on his weaknesses (stamina, strength and hold up play) and is twice the player for it, just like I said he would be if he improved those things.
It wasn't an attack on you more fans in general , just frustrates me that Miller has provided far more than Donal so far (even though Donal hasnt got much of a chance) yet Donal arrived with hype and is given far more margin for error than Miller who was a free transfer and only came with a wage risk as such.
I was pointing out that footballers are often loved more for effort than ability, I would personally take the credit for highlighting Clarke's inadequacies and Jordan's talent, but Lee Clark deserve the criticism for seemingly missing them (CLARKE) and the credit for finding it (JORDAN)
You must surely agree that NOVAK and WORTHINGTON have and did have a loyal following.
The ideal midfielder of course would be Chris Marsden equal amount of effort and ability.
Jon "Red Card" Worthington was a typical Jacko era player who committed all the time but didnt have the technical ability. The trouble with that sort of player, and Peter Clarke fits into it, that their pride stops them admitting their weaknesses and they put extra effort in to try and disguise it but that often makes the situation worse.
Any news when Johnson will be back? Also how long is Smithies out for? Surely his career must be in the balance at the moment as hasnt played for so long.
its ok everyone saying whens johnson back but we all know as soon as he is then gobern will be dropped for him. we then go back to having noone in the middle. the difference was instant when gobern went off. his passing is at times is stunning. and the way he always brings the ball to the floor no matter what and plays the simple pass is just what we need. he will go to the top i promise u that. if miller is sacrificed for johnson then fantastic if not were still screwed with no creativity
gobern is proving to be a major cog and i hope lc has realised cos if not i assure u one of these maby scouts watching jordan will have already or will before the season ends.
in the tough. close games or the games where we find it hard to score we need to do something a little different, a little unexpected...if their centre half hadnt fallen over on saturday it would have been 0-0..
fine margins in lots of games cost us promotion last season..the same could be said of this season so far..
i work with 2 wednesday fans, they are home and away bodies.. they didnt and still dont rate miller.. he simply cant do enough and as long as clark wants both centre midfielders holding hands he will never be able to do enough..the ball simply by passes them both ways most of the time in a lot of games.. its clear they simply dont trust the centre backs enough...
if we are going to play like a lot of the game on saturday we just require two hard workers in there, forget any quality passing etc.. if we are going to try and play some football then im afraid we will have to start trusting mccome and p clarke and the centre midfielders are going to have to play with some depth and not holding hands and one of them is going to have to be picking the ball up in the opponents half and shifting forward with it..
if we had scored early on saturday, oldham would have scored at some point but im sure we would have scored more..
we got the 3 points, scraped through but its not a tactic or a game that i would want to see again at home..
a goal is good at anytime, winning late on is good but its not what we should ever be actually aiming to do..
id like mirf to do the stats on who was playing alongside rhodes when he has scored most of his goals???
think it will be novak..
next question is why???
nothing against alan lee and plan b..
plan a stopped working on saturday because we started hitting it long,high and hopefull after about 20 minutes..
the goal didnt even come from a long punt with alan lee on the pitch...
its not the strikers fault that everyone behind them starts punting it. rhodes score because the cross or the pass allows him to be favourite, long high stuff is at best 50/50 even with lee on the pitch..
Did anyone ever find out why we went from having 2 transfer targets to not going to do any business in the transfer window ?
Seemed a sudden turnaround and I wonder what brought the change of mind, bearing in mind Hoyle said even though we were at the top of the budget he would sanction it....
or are we playing hard to get...and will strike when no one is expecting it ?
Because Dean Hoyle told Lee Clark he wasn't wasting any more of his money.
Our best performances this season have come with DJ and OG in the middle together, at Sheffield United and MK Dons. They were taking it in turns sitting and moving forward and gave each other enough space to work separately rather than holding hands the entire game. Gobern is great on his day and Johnson is consistent, get them playing regularly together as well as keeping a consistent back 4 and we're golden. The front 2 and wingers can be afforded rotation, the 2 in midfield and the 5 at the back need to be the same as much as possible.
might be dependant on roberts moving..looking less likely as time goes by..
we need another striker and another centre half but if we really cant get anyone as good or better than we have it would be a waste of money.. if cads can stay fit for 5 months or so and show the same enthusiasm as saturday we can get away with not bringing in another forward..
kay can come in at centre half..tom can cover the full backs but ridealgh should still be with us.. he is apparently playing well, regularly...
Sign in if you want to comment
Anton Robinson
Page 2 of 2
posted on 16/1/12
I think players movement in general is poor. You look at the old addage of pass and move and our players still dont get it. Too often they are stood still when they receive a ball so by the time they have thought what they want to do and made a move the defender is close by. When we play balls to players making runs it makes their players worry that bit more and you tend to win free kicks as defenders lash out. Quick simple pass and moves would tear this division apart as it would constantly change the way we attack and so it wont be so predictable.
There are times when lumping it up can work but you need a guy to be busting a gut to get onto any knockdown for it to have any effect.
Barca are the best team in the world and they move a ball around quickly so why dont we try to emulate it to some extent??? Obviously we cant do the intracacy that their guys can but then we are up against players who give far more room and so opportunity
posted on 16/1/12
when was the last time town scored a goal from a move that took say, more than 4-5 passes???? without the opposition giving it back to us or making an almighty error...
if we slow the play down we dont score.. immaterial at a few goals to the good but critical if we are not..
we run onto too few passes, we almost akways pass to a man with his back to goal or standing still.. this is because the man playing the pass recieved the ball, stood still and played it from a static position.. one man running forward with the ball means others have to be running forward, it means the someone from the opposition has to come to the ball whilst some are running away to cover runners, bingo you have immediately knackered their defensive tactical plan of two banks of 4 when they havent got the ball..
its so simple it hurts...
posted on 16/1/12
The best defence we played against this season was away at Charlton and they didn't play any fancy stuff from the back. Play it to the full back if you get chance otherwise just hoof the thing as far from the danger area as possible. League 1 football - defenders defend and attackers attack.
posted on 16/1/12
im not sure either mccombe or p clarke are much better even given time..
imo, if the ball does not go in the net you have defended well..
they cant score directly from their own half and you give yourself time to get back into a better defensive position..
the amount of possession we give away in our own half is criminal at times.. but as the two central midfielders are nearly always stood very close to the centre backs a short pass or a sidweways pass is usually the only option other than lumping it forward..
a 20 yard forward pass to feet to someone moving into space would be a real rarity for towns centre backs....
posted on 16/1/12
Cas you are right Town Fans are never wrong they have voted Peter Clarke player of the year on two occasions purely because he gives his all, only this season is he been found out, How many on here questioned Jordan Rhodes, I think quite sometime ago I suggested he was our best by some distance and I was laughed at.
John Worthington possibly the worst regular central midfielder in the last 10 years was loved by many, Novak has his name sung with frequent regularity because he tries, and his effort hides in inadequacies.
Wedenesday Fans didn't rate Miller? which ones the ones on here? A throw away comment based on the handful of Wednesday Fans you know.
Of course playing at a higher level makes a difference. Its obvious in Miller just like it is Johnson and its been obvious to some for a long time that Jordan had the required quality to step up.
posted on 16/1/12
We tried all that a couple of seasons ago, lumping it down the channels but everyone complained about it. Now we've bought a shed load of midfield players but I think LC is still in a quandry about whether wing play is the way forward or midfield play...if either fails it's lump it. The missing ingredient is a midfield 'general', and that's Johnson , who's been injured.
Am sure he'll be back for Brentford, and when he is on the ball he'll drag their midfielders into the centre and that will open up the wings. We score 90% of our goals from crosses into the box (that's a guess but fairly near I reckon).
The thing about buying players 'with potential' ie Gobern, Robinson and McDermott is that is exactly what you get..we probably bought Miller to solidify midfield but with our best 2 CBs' still being undecided (Kay, Clarke, McCombe, Bruce, T Clark...) Miller has had to shore up at the back...If we get a settled couple of CBs maybe Miller can push up a bit.
We have weaknesses and at the moment some lads are being asked to shore these up and forego their natural games. The consequential effect is felt in other areas, further away from our goals.
Because the players are in and out so often, we remain unsettled...LC has loads of choice but the lads who come in don't make the most of their opportunity all the time.
It's frustrating, but like I said, many are younger lads and learning still.
As for fitness, Alan lee said it took him nearly all year to get to the level of fitness he's at now, and he's never been as fit as he is...as we can see in his new found mobility and impact that he's benefited, and the others will come through too.
The thing is, the side do have more to offer, we know that, we're not playing above ourselves we're more often under performing, but as we move into the final run in surely we'll see an improvement as the 'winning post' gets closer.
posted on 16/1/12
RW, you get very defensive very quickly:
I live in Sheffield, I could walk to Hillsborough I live that close. I work with at least 5 Sheffield Wednesday fans and play football with at least another 7 or 8, and that's before the people I socialise with. That's at least 15 unbiased opinions and 50% of them are season ticket holders, so I take their opinions on board. The one thing they said about Miller was "He'll be decent if he has someone next to him who can do 75% of the work."
I was probably the first person to say Peter Clarke was past it and that was a LONG time ago so don't know what your point is there, I think Novak serves a purpose but is limited and Worthington always was and will be a terrible footballer, so again not sure what you're getting at there.
Jordan Rhodes . I stand by everything I ever said about the lad, and I take his upturn in form as proof that I was right all along. Jordan Rhodes of 12 months ago wouldn't have scored that 4th away at Wednesday, he wouldn't have even been on the pitch. To the lads credit he's worked on his weaknesses (stamina, strength and hold up play) and is twice the player for it, just like I said he would be if he improved those things.
posted on 16/1/12
It wasn't an attack on you more fans in general , just frustrates me that Miller has provided far more than Donal so far (even though Donal hasnt got much of a chance) yet Donal arrived with hype and is given far more margin for error than Miller who was a free transfer and only came with a wage risk as such.
I was pointing out that footballers are often loved more for effort than ability, I would personally take the credit for highlighting Clarke's inadequacies and Jordan's talent, but Lee Clark deserve the criticism for seemingly missing them (CLARKE) and the credit for finding it (JORDAN)
You must surely agree that NOVAK and WORTHINGTON have and did have a loyal following.
The ideal midfielder of course would be Chris Marsden equal amount of effort and ability.
posted on 16/1/12
Jon "Red Card" Worthington was a typical Jacko era player who committed all the time but didnt have the technical ability. The trouble with that sort of player, and Peter Clarke fits into it, that their pride stops them admitting their weaknesses and they put extra effort in to try and disguise it but that often makes the situation worse.
Any news when Johnson will be back? Also how long is Smithies out for? Surely his career must be in the balance at the moment as hasnt played for so long.
posted on 16/1/12
its ok everyone saying whens johnson back but we all know as soon as he is then gobern will be dropped for him. we then go back to having noone in the middle. the difference was instant when gobern went off. his passing is at times is stunning. and the way he always brings the ball to the floor no matter what and plays the simple pass is just what we need. he will go to the top i promise u that. if miller is sacrificed for johnson then fantastic if not were still screwed with no creativity
posted on 16/1/12
gobern is proving to be a major cog and i hope lc has realised cos if not i assure u one of these maby scouts watching jordan will have already or will before the season ends.
posted on 16/1/12
in the tough. close games or the games where we find it hard to score we need to do something a little different, a little unexpected...if their centre half hadnt fallen over on saturday it would have been 0-0..
fine margins in lots of games cost us promotion last season..the same could be said of this season so far..
i work with 2 wednesday fans, they are home and away bodies.. they didnt and still dont rate miller.. he simply cant do enough and as long as clark wants both centre midfielders holding hands he will never be able to do enough..the ball simply by passes them both ways most of the time in a lot of games.. its clear they simply dont trust the centre backs enough...
if we are going to play like a lot of the game on saturday we just require two hard workers in there, forget any quality passing etc.. if we are going to try and play some football then im afraid we will have to start trusting mccome and p clarke and the centre midfielders are going to have to play with some depth and not holding hands and one of them is going to have to be picking the ball up in the opponents half and shifting forward with it..
if we had scored early on saturday, oldham would have scored at some point but im sure we would have scored more..
we got the 3 points, scraped through but its not a tactic or a game that i would want to see again at home..
a goal is good at anytime, winning late on is good but its not what we should ever be actually aiming to do..
posted on 16/1/12
id like mirf to do the stats on who was playing alongside rhodes when he has scored most of his goals???
think it will be novak..
next question is why???
nothing against alan lee and plan b..
plan a stopped working on saturday because we started hitting it long,high and hopefull after about 20 minutes..
the goal didnt even come from a long punt with alan lee on the pitch...
its not the strikers fault that everyone behind them starts punting it. rhodes score because the cross or the pass allows him to be favourite, long high stuff is at best 50/50 even with lee on the pitch..
posted on 16/1/12
Did anyone ever find out why we went from having 2 transfer targets to not going to do any business in the transfer window ?
Seemed a sudden turnaround and I wonder what brought the change of mind, bearing in mind Hoyle said even though we were at the top of the budget he would sanction it....
or are we playing hard to get...and will strike when no one is expecting it ?
posted on 16/1/12
Because Dean Hoyle told Lee Clark he wasn't wasting any more of his money.
Our best performances this season have come with DJ and OG in the middle together, at Sheffield United and MK Dons. They were taking it in turns sitting and moving forward and gave each other enough space to work separately rather than holding hands the entire game. Gobern is great on his day and Johnson is consistent, get them playing regularly together as well as keeping a consistent back 4 and we're golden. The front 2 and wingers can be afforded rotation, the 2 in midfield and the 5 at the back need to be the same as much as possible.
posted on 16/1/12
might be dependant on roberts moving..looking less likely as time goes by..
we need another striker and another centre half but if we really cant get anyone as good or better than we have it would be a waste of money.. if cads can stay fit for 5 months or so and show the same enthusiasm as saturday we can get away with not bringing in another forward..
kay can come in at centre half..tom can cover the full backs but ridealgh should still be with us.. he is apparently playing well, regularly...
Page 2 of 2