"We're trying to create an elite in the Under-20s, but they are elite in what? They are elite trainers, they are elite at taking supplements, they are elite at looking at videos and looking at computers.
"They aren't elite under pressure and knowing what their bodies can do and what pain is all about."
This is the most accurate assessment of Welsh rugby in the modern era I've ever heard. Well said Richard, I hope the WRU listen and act immediately.
Different view now that Ireland have been disposed of?
Richard Webster, has done that thing that no coach should do, publicly criticised his players, he says were they well prepared, then answers in the affirmative. Others might have a different view.
It is true that Welsh players do not cope with pressure, at all levels, blaming everyone but yourself will earn no friends.
In answer to your questions:
1) No, S.A. put 100 past Fiji, we beat Ireland but have yet to apply any pressure and come close to beating any of the top 5 teams in world rugby at senior or junior level for years.
2) Webster spoke honestly, he criticised the system whilst reflecting on what the players did in this tornament. Surely we need more of this honesty if we are to move forward.
"We have to find reasons, not excuses, for why talented, strong, people can't perform on this stage,"
"We were naive in the contact area and naive in our execution of everything,"
"We just didn't turn up. We knew which way we wanted to play. We knew Fiji didn't have a game - they didn't have a lineout, they didn't have a kicking game, they were disorganised in defence.
"I'll take the blame as a coach. Did I get them prepared properly? I'd like to think we did."
"Did we have their minds in the right place? I'd like to think we did. But then they go for the 80 minutes and play, they weren't in the right place."
3) I believe he did blame himself, it is clear to me he refers to 'we' and not individual players, then criticises his coaching approach. Saying he criticised players breaking some kind of rule is non-sense.
If players are that mentally weak that they can't accept when they under performed and take the flak then it explains a lot in terms of not being able to cope at international level.
To be honest though, our U20's are talented but blow hot and cold, I've seen them really put good sides to the sword and then crumble and take a stuffing in the very next game. More needs to be done on raising skill levels.
People say how skillful our players are but too many opportunities get butchered by sloppy passing, tackling and kicking. Players should be brought up in an environment of aiming for perfection at what they do, not being told, it's alright, you'll do better next time......
Colesy, not argueing with your general thinking, but your penultimate paragraph sort of contradicts the last.
U20's are talented and can put teams to the sword, followed by saying that more needs to be done to raise the skills level.
Yes the application of the players, both junior and senior, leaves a lot to be desired, grand slams followed by wooden spoons.
Question: is it the fault of the players, or the coaches?
I tend to think that if coaches KNOW that our players are prone to this type of performance, then they should be working to try to eradicate it. You do that by, either forcing players to focus more, or by dropping those that refuse.
Would Gavin Henson have been given the leeway in say SA or NZ that he gets here?
Not a problem Ashes, perhaps I should have said that their accuracy needs improving.......
I completely agree with your comment about the coaches working to eradicate the issue.
I think the answer must lie with both players and coaches. Our players are capable but are they self disciplined? Do they accept responsibility? If they do then why are they making the same mistakes each time?
Regarding coaches, we need more like Webster who will be straight with the players and the public. They musn't shy away from problems.
Having said that, you have to be firm but fair, the best coaches should make you strive for perfection but maintain moral. It's not easy but nobody said it would be.
Personally, I'm a secondary school chemistry and physics teacher so I know all about the difficulties of self discipline in our younger generation.
So to summarise, we need more mature professionals playing the game and more inspirational coaches not just analysts.
So to summarise, we need more mature professionals playing the game and more inspirational coaches not just analysts>>>
Couldn't have put it better myself!
Where are these coaches though? I'm sure that the Ospreys, my team, would be a better outfit if a more astute and tougher coach were IC.
Regarding Webster, my problem with his statements are simple, why he didn't he make them when they counted?
He left the Swansea job AND then berated the O's hierarchy. He would have had more impact if he had done it before he left, likewise if he'd warned the Welsh public beforehand over the U20's his words would have held more resonance.
Basically it all starts and stops with the national coach, currently Gatland seems to let some get away with very poor professionality ie: Phillips, Roberts and Henson, I would be happier if he took a longer view (he can afford to) and hit these silly boys where it hurts most.
All valid points Ashes. At least people are beginning to say these things though, it's a start.
So we are agreed, this never used to happen on old 606, where are the wummers, the simple minded morons who'd insult and be rude?
I prefer this quieter 606, people only post when there's something worth saying.
Did you hear about Phillip's returning to the squad? Hell of a punishment, he must be soooo whipped now, oooooo.
Colesy606
Ah mate the wumers will arrive at some point. Best to enjoy the peace and quite while we have it.
P.S. Well done to the W u20. u gave us a decent hammering at the weekend. THo i have to say, personally, im not at all happy with the tournament as a whole. very disappointing.
Tried replying to this topic three times and got blocked for inappropriate use of words????
Colesy
Happy to find that agreement, Phillips should have been hung out to dry.
DingBatMan
Agree that the wums will be around someday, lets all enjoy what we have now.
And I'm not happy with the JWC format.......at all. And especially with the performance of the U20's Welsh team, however Ruddock's Ireland did slightly poorer, doesn't mean that the coaches should be sacked?
On the subject of this forum being quiet, the others I've looked at are generally no busier.
Not seems to be made up of quick one liners.
Sc(r)umV seems to be the one with the better posters.
V2 seems to be a little self important.
TRF looks to have all the wums.
Sorry about the multiple posts, put together the post got blocked.
DingBatMan, I hear ya fella, I don't think there's that much between our U20's to be honest, the 6nations was a very close one. As for the lack of wummers, long may it last.
Ashes, strange about the blockage, I don't like the U20's format either, it didn't used to be like this though, wasn't it originally four groups, top 4 go through and the rest play off for respective places in blocks of four?
England looked strong in the tournament though, they were pretty competitive against NZ in the end, they impressed against SA and they have some amazing athletes in their squad, the future looks bright over the bridge if they can bring them on...........huc, think I was just sick in my mouth!
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posted on 24/6/11
"We're trying to create an elite in the Under-20s, but they are elite in what? They are elite trainers, they are elite at taking supplements, they are elite at looking at videos and looking at computers.
"They aren't elite under pressure and knowing what their bodies can do and what pain is all about."
This is the most accurate assessment of Welsh rugby in the modern era I've ever heard. Well said Richard, I hope the WRU listen and act immediately.
posted on 26/6/11
Different view now that Ireland have been disposed of?
Richard Webster, has done that thing that no coach should do, publicly criticised his players, he says were they well prepared, then answers in the affirmative. Others might have a different view.
It is true that Welsh players do not cope with pressure, at all levels, blaming everyone but yourself will earn no friends.
posted on 27/6/11
In answer to your questions:
1) No, S.A. put 100 past Fiji, we beat Ireland but have yet to apply any pressure and come close to beating any of the top 5 teams in world rugby at senior or junior level for years.
2) Webster spoke honestly, he criticised the system whilst reflecting on what the players did in this tornament. Surely we need more of this honesty if we are to move forward.
"We have to find reasons, not excuses, for why talented, strong, people can't perform on this stage,"
"We were naive in the contact area and naive in our execution of everything,"
"We just didn't turn up. We knew which way we wanted to play. We knew Fiji didn't have a game - they didn't have a lineout, they didn't have a kicking game, they were disorganised in defence.
"I'll take the blame as a coach. Did I get them prepared properly? I'd like to think we did."
"Did we have their minds in the right place? I'd like to think we did. But then they go for the 80 minutes and play, they weren't in the right place."
3) I believe he did blame himself, it is clear to me he refers to 'we' and not individual players, then criticises his coaching approach. Saying he criticised players breaking some kind of rule is non-sense.
If players are that mentally weak that they can't accept when they under performed and take the flak then it explains a lot in terms of not being able to cope at international level.
To be honest though, our U20's are talented but blow hot and cold, I've seen them really put good sides to the sword and then crumble and take a stuffing in the very next game. More needs to be done on raising skill levels.
People say how skillful our players are but too many opportunities get butchered by sloppy passing, tackling and kicking. Players should be brought up in an environment of aiming for perfection at what they do, not being told, it's alright, you'll do better next time......
posted on 27/6/11
Colesy, not argueing with your general thinking, but your penultimate paragraph sort of contradicts the last.
U20's are talented and can put teams to the sword, followed by saying that more needs to be done to raise the skills level.
Yes the application of the players, both junior and senior, leaves a lot to be desired, grand slams followed by wooden spoons.
Question: is it the fault of the players, or the coaches?
I tend to think that if coaches KNOW that our players are prone to this type of performance, then they should be working to try to eradicate it. You do that by, either forcing players to focus more, or by dropping those that refuse.
Would Gavin Henson have been given the leeway in say SA or NZ that he gets here?
posted on 27/6/11
Not a problem Ashes, perhaps I should have said that their accuracy needs improving.......
I completely agree with your comment about the coaches working to eradicate the issue.
I think the answer must lie with both players and coaches. Our players are capable but are they self disciplined? Do they accept responsibility? If they do then why are they making the same mistakes each time?
Regarding coaches, we need more like Webster who will be straight with the players and the public. They musn't shy away from problems.
Having said that, you have to be firm but fair, the best coaches should make you strive for perfection but maintain moral. It's not easy but nobody said it would be.
Personally, I'm a secondary school chemistry and physics teacher so I know all about the difficulties of self discipline in our younger generation.
So to summarise, we need more mature professionals playing the game and more inspirational coaches not just analysts.
posted on 27/6/11
So to summarise, we need more mature professionals playing the game and more inspirational coaches not just analysts>>>
Couldn't have put it better myself!
Where are these coaches though? I'm sure that the Ospreys, my team, would be a better outfit if a more astute and tougher coach were IC.
Regarding Webster, my problem with his statements are simple, why he didn't he make them when they counted?
He left the Swansea job AND then berated the O's hierarchy. He would have had more impact if he had done it before he left, likewise if he'd warned the Welsh public beforehand over the U20's his words would have held more resonance.
Basically it all starts and stops with the national coach, currently Gatland seems to let some get away with very poor professionality ie: Phillips, Roberts and Henson, I would be happier if he took a longer view (he can afford to) and hit these silly boys where it hurts most.
posted on 27/6/11
All valid points Ashes. At least people are beginning to say these things though, it's a start.
So we are agreed, this never used to happen on old 606, where are the wummers, the simple minded morons who'd insult and be rude?
I prefer this quieter 606, people only post when there's something worth saying.
Did you hear about Phillip's returning to the squad? Hell of a punishment, he must be soooo whipped now, oooooo.
posted on 27/6/11
Colesy606
Ah mate the wumers will arrive at some point. Best to enjoy the peace and quite while we have it.
P.S. Well done to the W u20. u gave us a decent hammering at the weekend. THo i have to say, personally, im not at all happy with the tournament as a whole. very disappointing.
posted on 28/6/11
Tried replying to this topic three times and got blocked for inappropriate use of words????
posted on 28/6/11
Colesy
Happy to find that agreement, Phillips should have been hung out to dry.
posted on 28/6/11
DingBatMan
Agree that the wums will be around someday, lets all enjoy what we have now.
And I'm not happy with the JWC format.......at all. And especially with the performance of the U20's Welsh team, however Ruddock's Ireland did slightly poorer, doesn't mean that the coaches should be sacked?
posted on 28/6/11
On the subject of this forum being quiet, the others I've looked at are generally no busier.
Not seems to be made up of quick one liners.
Sc(r)umV seems to be the one with the better posters.
V2 seems to be a little self important.
TRF looks to have all the wums.
posted on 28/6/11
Sorry about the multiple posts, put together the post got blocked.
posted on 28/6/11
DingBatMan, I hear ya fella, I don't think there's that much between our U20's to be honest, the 6nations was a very close one. As for the lack of wummers, long may it last.
Ashes, strange about the blockage, I don't like the U20's format either, it didn't used to be like this though, wasn't it originally four groups, top 4 go through and the rest play off for respective places in blocks of four?
England looked strong in the tournament though, they were pretty competitive against NZ in the end, they impressed against SA and they have some amazing athletes in their squad, the future looks bright over the bridge if they can bring them on...........huc, think I was just sick in my mouth!
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