Rover the hill and far away

I'm sorry but I just cannot continue to have any debate when you clearly have one rule for Kean and Venky's and another rule for anybody else.

Oh and for the record, you are aware that Kean was appointed by Sam as 1st Team Coach in 2009 and has a number of years previous in coaching.

He replaced Karl Robinson so would have been coaching the 1st team squad and reserves before coming Manager, it is therefore very obvious why certain academy players have emerged through to the first team under Kean, he'd been working with them and coaching them for over a year!

But don't worry, don't stop facts getting in the way of the truth...

Yup thats you McT, the king of sensible debate.

Yes - I am aware that Kean's previous duties cover coaching - a position for which he seems more than fit based on the testimonies about him. I don't doubt that he has had a significant influence on the first teamers coming through and will have great knowledge of their skills and abilities, even the rawer ones like Hanley.

It is still conjecture on my part as I don't actually know this however. Its not a fact as you mention although you could write the statement and put fact after the sentence to amke it so of course...

You mentioned one of Kean's good points was getting contracts signed for some of our other players. Is this conjecture on your part or do you know something the rest of us don't as I don't know who was responsible - other management, Kean, Anderson or Venkys. Good overall result but how much down to Kean?

You can have it attributed to the evil VenKean regime if you want though...

So with regard to contracts and signings:

You are happy to blame Kean for all his terrible signings, but then it is conjecture that he had some involvement in developing our academy players into the first team and securing our senior players on longer contracts?

You can't have it both ways and to try and deny the Club's Manager having involvement in player contracts and transfer is ridiculous.

Whether it was Kean or Venky's (obviously both) credit where credit is due. Kean has stipulated on a number of occasions that he meets with Venky's and discusses HIS transfer targets, or is he lying again obviously...

I presume you'd happily credit Sam signing Givet, Salgado and getting Pedersen to sign a new 5 year deal, and bringing Hoilett in to the first team...

Great work by King getting all those senior players to sign up.

Bunn - was hardly going anywhere was he. Good job we improved his contract and let Fielding go for free.

Roberts - no comment.

Samba - doesn't want to be at the club, has basically said the club has lied to him.


All hail Steve Kean!

Those aren't the the only players to extend contract though, I'm sure there was quite a few others. It was probably just conjecture that Kean was involved in those though, he was only involved in the bad ones

please tell me the other ones?

I remember a few senior players signing contracts when he first took charge, plus Phil Jones who you got more cash more. Same with Samba so no idea how that's a bad thing and Dunn, probably some others.

Phil Jones who Venkys got a bit more cash for you mean?

That release clause for our best player worked a treat!

That's not Steve Kean's fault the owners are stingy s

Just tried out that Filter button for the first time on 8bit. Works a treat

so it does! awesome.

Sorry McTeeth I normally respect your opinion even when it differs from my own, but you have been acting a bit strange in this thread.

Anyway just my 2 cents on some of the points made in this thread (not just from Mcteeth)

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- Having the determination and ambition to take on the job full time, whilst a no brainer, it has brought him many personal difficulties and abuse.

Most people in his position would have taken the job. Many would also continue despite the personal difficulties rather than walk away jobless.

- Getting all our better and senior players on long contracts last January, also enabled us to get a large sum of money for Phil Jones with the release clause.

Last Who actually signed last Jan? Samba (thats working out well at the moment), £16m release clause was a foolish thing to put in the contract saying that a young english player went for £35m around that time.

- Signing Jermaine Jones on loan who was an integral part of our survival.

Agree

- Getting results when it really mattered, drawing against Man Utd, Arsenal and beating Wolves last day of the season, also QPR last weekend.

Those matches mattered because of the inability to beat Blackpool, Birmingham, Newcastle et al at home before them. If QPR was a big game then Bolton, Wigan, West Brom games also were and he failed to win them

- Some good transfer business in signing Yakubu, Formica and Dann, along with some other decent additions.

Yakubu has proven a great signing, Formica is coming along nicely, Dann hasn't set the world alight for me

- Excellent work with our youth system and bringing through Lowe and Henley, along with the dramatic improvements with Hoilett and Hanley.

Hoilett and Hanley have improved under Kean because of gametime. Lowe looks like he could have a great future (needs to cut down the bookings though), Henley was brought in as needs must and is still to early to judge for me after only 6 games.

- Refusing to sell Samba and seemingly convinced him to play again.

Can't

- Put in a lot of effort to get Hoilett to sign, with his father being a very difficult agent, but has convinced him to see out the season.

I don't believe there is anything to say that Hoilett Snr is the problem in the negotiations

- Admirable victories against Liverpool, Arsenal and Man Utd.

Yes they were

- Showing genuinely signs that he has learnt and improved as a Manager.

The fact that we continue to concede every game and his substituions seem to turn the game in the oppositions favour would say to me that he isn't learning

- Has always had the support of the players.

Hard to say. He tells us he does, but any player who came out and criticised Kean would be effectively doing themselves out of a spot in the team. Some players who have moved on have criticised

- In the face of mass criticism and torrents of disgusting abuse has never once bad mouthed the fans or the media and always conducts himself in a dignified manner in interviews.

I believe this is true

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- Nelsen is injured.

Nelsen was injured, he wouldn't have surgery if he wasn't. He played behind closed doors friendlys in December and apparently suffered a setback and was sent to New Zealand to see a specialist. He was then sold to Spurs on 31st January who declared him fit and he came on as a sub last week. There is no proof that Kean lied here.

- Hoilett's contract negotiations are going well.

He repeated on numerous occasions that he hoped the deal would be concluded soon, perhaps he was lying perhaps he generally thought so. We don't know

- We have a top 4 squad (barring injuries).

I believe he said we should be looking for Europe. Press then twisted this to mean Champions league hence top 4. Unless I have missed this being said

- My drink was spiked.

Judge didn't believe it to be true, neither did I

- We will sign 4 players to go straight in and improve the first team (repeated every transfer window).

He did say this in January, I don't believe he met his promise

8Bit, not sureof the accuracy of this but as I understand it: Phil Jones had 4 years left to run on his contract without a release clause. Our (whoever is responsible) masterful negotiation got a more year and a release clause, triggered within months of signing!

"So with regard to contracts and signings:

You are happy to blame Kean for all his terrible signings, "

I don't think they are terrible signings - disappointed that you think so. I have said this numerous times.

"but then it is conjecture that he had some involvement in developing our academy players into the first team and securing our senior players on longer contracts?"

Obviously reading's not your best skill so we'll move on.

"You can't have it both ways and to try and deny the Club's Manager having involvement in player contracts and transfer is ridiculous."

I haven't denied - just said that we don't know what level of involvement he has had - you were giving him (solely in your first statement before changing it below) credit. Can you know this for sure?

"Whether it was Kean or Venky's (obviously both) credit where credit is due."

I said this above - good result overall for the Evil VenKean regime.

"Kean has stipulated on a number of occasions that he meets with Venky's and discusses HIS transfer targets, or is he lying again obviously..."

Bradley Orr being our most senior signing. Does he take responsibility for that being the level of our ambition or does Venkys not meet his level of ambition. I don't know tbh, neither do you know what is happening with transfer policy.

"I presume you'd happily credit Sam signing Givet, Salgado and getting Pedersen to sign a new 5 year deal, and bringing Hoilett in to the first team..."

Why is this a comparison with our former manager? Indulging you but I get to ask a question in return.

1. "Sam signing Givet" - Yes, he targeted him and made it happen. Therefore deserves credit. Are you saying one of our manager's targets was an unknown lad from Barcelona B who just happened to make his agents 3X his tarnsfer fee?
2."Salgado" Clearly - both manager and player have cited this. He targeted him and convinced the club to spend big wages on him (after signing two other RBs). Good for the impact he had, professionally and in the club but not a signing for the long term.
3. Pedersen. Honestly I don't know. Sam would have wanted him but it was up to the club's management to have agreed the size and scale of the contract to be in line with budgets. I think its a good move on whoever's part.
"4. Hoillet first team" - he did right but didn't do enough to make him a better player and certainly didn't get what Kean is getting out of him.

"4. Hoillet first team" - he did right but didn't do enough to make him a better player and certainly didn't get what Kean is getting out of him.

---------------------------------------------------

Allardyce is all about the percentage game and minimising risk. He acknowledged Hoilett's inability to provide defensive cover and therefore used him as an impact player. There is no hiding from the fact that a team that includes the likes of Hoilett and Formica cannot keep a clean sheet.

So some credit to Kean for getting the best out of him, but at what cost to the team as a whole?

I didn't solely credit Kean with anything, my words were, Kean can take credit from...

What does it matter about an agent getting money from the Rochina deal, agents make money hand over fist in any deal, and it is Venky's money so who cares? Besides, he has scored 6 goals and got an assist as a bit part player, hardly money badly spent either.

That bothers you but Sam taking bungs doesn't? Or the Walker Trust lining their pockets from the sales of Bellamy, Santa Cruz, Bentley and Warnock?

Just because Kean and Venky's are disliked by many fans doesn't instantly make everything they do dodgy and negative.

We had equally bent transactions taking place under the Trust it just you lot choose to not be bothered by it.

One rule for one another for the other...

At the end of the day McTeeth, all most of us fans care about is results, whilst the Trust was "lining their pockets" from those sales we were very rarely threatened with relegation.

I really fail to understand any of your points, you just argue for the sake of arguing.

I'm not arguing, I'm merely presenting the information in an unbiased manner.

If all you care about is results why does nearly every thread on here continually spout nonsense and hysteria about the club?

Weren't we entering financial meltdown about a month ago...

Because since the current regime took over results are on a downward trend.

Because they don't seem to be doing anything about it.

So people are trying to work out what the club's agenda is, because it clearly isn't on the field results.

"That bothers you but Sam taking bungs doesn't? Or the Walker Trust lining their pockets from the sales of Bellamy, Santa Cruz, Bentley and Warnock?"

So you moan about an unproven allegation but are happy to moan about others moaning about unproven allegations about Venkys.

Consistency works best ways hombre.

One rule for the owners who had best of intentions for the club, who took decisive action to leave it as a whole, healthy, admired club within the finest league in the world, having net invested more than they removed.

One rule for the others who, as a result of actions they have taken, have risked the financial health of this club, disenfranchised the fans and local community, risked our position within the Premier League (ok thats a selfish point) and whose intentions are difficult to ascertain - but is very much hands off and does not appear to be supportive.

Excuse, we sold Bentley, RSC and Warnock alone for around 40m, plus additional player sales.

These were effectively replaced by Chimbonda, Givet and Grella for around 8.5m.

Whilst interest payments were made to the banks our debts continued to rise, where on earth do you believe all of that 32m went?

Money from Sky, ticket sales and merchandise covered players wages and operating costs.

Yet on here everyone has a fit over selling Jones and yet every penny from his sale and Kalinic was reinvested in the squad.

I actually meant this bit:

"That bothers you but Sam taking bungs doesn't?"

The rest - well it serves how well as an illustration of how you twist an argument and invent facts to suit you.

How about these:

- Kalinic sale is referred to, not the purchase - how can that be.
- 40m = Bentley (15m) + RSC (18m) + Warnock (6m) = I make that 39m
- Chimbonda (1.5m) + Grella (4m) + Givet (3.5m) I make that 9m

So already 2m different. Strange that for someone that is so independant....

Thats with ignoring EHD (1.5m) and Kalinic (6m), N'zonzi, Jacobsen, Linganzi, Salgado wages, Goulon acquisitions.

- Ince dismissal. Have you forgotten how decisive chairmen get rid of failing managers - for a cost. Not the cost of losing place in the Prem however.
- Bentley sell on clause to Arsenal. Wasn't it rumoured to be 40%? So £6m.

I have no doubt that the Trust took money out of the club. This is to refund some of their earlier investment but can you deny that we had a financially well run, stable club at the point in time of the acquisition by the Venkys?

Agree the £22m on sales was reinvested. however, given the poverty of our position in the league, do you think it was well invested given that large portions of that talent sit on the bench week after week?