VICENTE DEL BOSQUE GREATEST EVER?

The Bossmsm

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I was pointing out to Ozil eyes that SAF isn't the world best manager.

But in saying that, you do make a valid point reguarding his (early) time at AM but that still doesn't diminish his stats!

I've never been a fan of basing one's ability on their trophy haul.
If John Terry hadn't slipped up whilst taking a penalty a few years ago, Chelsea could have pipped United to the Champions League title - a trophy that would have boosted Avram's Grants resume considerably. But a slightly more steady piece of turf that night really shouldn't be the difference between Grant being a failure as Chelsea manager, and being one of the best managers in Europe over recent seasons.

Obviously, Del Bosque wouldn't have received the jobs he has had he not shown some quality, and I'm not denying that he is a good manager, but when you consider he has managed arguably the greatest club and international sides of the last 10-15 years, what he achieved shouldn't be considered above and beyond what was expected.

First, he took over the greatest club side in the history of football, with the club president securing the services of some of the best footballers of that generation (and arguably of all time, with particular reference to Ronaldo and Zidane).

After a brief spell at Besiktas, he took over at the helm of a Spanish national side that had just come off the back of a convincing victory at the 2008 European Championships, and a side that has been argued by many to be one of the greatest international sides of all-time.

He steered these sides towards the success demanded of them, but I only don't think that's enough to deem him one of the greatest managers in football history.

DaStuDogg

I agree. He hasn't been a 'manager' in the sense of the whole job of team building or a great philosopher who has imposed a new vision of the game.

Great players were a fortunate circumstance of both his successful teams. He has done a skilful job at instilling a good collective spirit and has shown tactical subtlety in tweaking the winning formulae he inherited. I really don't think these admirable qualities make him even a candidate for best manager of all time.

^Exactly! He's managed the teams and the egos he's been tasked with well, but more than an impressive list of trophies is needed to be one of the greatest.

DaStuDogg (U9291)

But lets be honest and say no manager in the history of the game has won that level of trophy haul.
Del Bosque has won everything there is to win in football.
The big trophies being The Champions League x2 The World Club title, The World Cup and The European Championships.

That to me shows he is right up there with the very best. If Spain win Brazil 2014 with him in charge that will make Del Bosque the best of all time.

I disagree.

As I say, I feel it's a little simplistic to judge such a subjective matter with such a wide range of variables solely on the trophies one has won.

Hypothetically - and I appreciate this is absurd, but I like to use exaggerations of a point for emphasis - but if there was a team comprised of players twice as good as any other team in the world and I was put in charge, could I claim to be the greatest manager of all time for the inevitable myriad of trophies that my side would win?

If there are 2 managers of identical abilities, one of whom gets the job managing the best footballing side in the world, and the other takes the reins at a significantly weaker side, then by the trophies won criteria, the former would likely be considered a far superior manager.

Del Bosque's obviously a very good manager, and I'm not suggesting that being serendipitous enough to land arguably the two top jobs in football should preclude him from being considered one of the greats; I just think that there should be a greater consideration of other factors in this situation, and IMO, he hasn't looked a good enough manager to be considered one of the best ever.

DaStuDogg (U9291)

Who would you consider the greatest then??

Hizfeld??
Sacchi??
Trapotonei??
Ferguson??
Capello??
Lippi??
Van Gaal??
Rinus Michels??

Not sure.

Haven't watched enough of certain managers to really make a judgement, I'm afraid.

What I would say is that there are a number of managers I personally prefer to Del Bosque, so even if I don't know who I would choose as the greatest, I know Del Bosque wouldn't be one of my leading candidates.

Who would you say is up there and why?

It's not something I've given a great deal of thought, but a couple of managers I really admire:

Valeriy Lobanovskyi - One of the pioneers of the pressing game that is such commonplace now. His tactical acumen really allowed Kyev to punch well above their weight for years.

Marcelo Bielsa - His Argentina side looked excellent from what I saw, whilst I honestly feel he turned Chile into one of the best international sides in the world - even if they ultimately achieved very little. He now seems to be revolutionising Bilbao in the same way, and despite their inherent disadvantages, I expect to see them do very well over the next few years.