The Guardian

"i don't want our strikers to give us defensive stability. If that is necessary due to our midfield then that is a shocking indictment of our midfield".

Exactly what VC said. In any formation where two strikers are used, they don't just both stay up top all the time, at least one of them has to offer something defensively, particularly against teams that have three in CM which is very common days.

Always, at least one striker needs to offer some form of defensive protection. Rooney, through his versality, is one of the best at it and at times, that has been to his hindrance as it means he has to drop deeper than even he wants to.

That is true in both a 442 and a 4231 (without the ball, they are pretty much the same shape, unless you press all over the field, which United don't).

"Melton, out of interest how did you work this out?

By all accounts Roo never received a pay rise in 2010...Are you saying that he did?"

No, I'm only saying Rooney did, both by what Ferguson and Gill said at the time and the fact that your wage bill went up a fair bit. I imagine a few other players did as well, but I don't know who else you negotiated with that year. As far as I understand it though, the vast majority of the United squad still conform to a tiered structure of wages, unless that has dramatically changed in the last few years.

As macca said earlier, United are like City in that we don't release individual wage details so exact figures can only be guesswork.

"very common days"

should read nowadays

Obviously, but that wasn't what the issue was, was it?
___________________

I don't know what your issues are.

I just don't believe that chasing the ball is an end in and of itself.

I.e. just closing down the opposition is not in itself something to crow about. Especially for a striker.

Cheers Melton. I thought that was what you meant - I just wondered whether you had any figures or any reason to believe that the increase in wages was specifcially related to Rooney.

I wrote a long article about Barcelona last season. That isn't quite what they do. They press all over the pitch for the first seven seconds of losing the ball, as that is when the team with possession is at its most vulnerable. If they don't get it, they actually revert to shape and sit deep to create more space for themselves when they do get the ball. At least, that is what they did under Guardiola, Villanova started to change it a bit.

United don't do that, when you don't have the ball, you are one of the best teams at retaining shape. It relies on at least one of your two central frontmen to keep to that. Rooney can at times follow the man deeper than he probably should, but if you watch what happens, someone else then occupies the space Rooney should be in.

A good example would be to watch City this year. We have gone from defending with a very rigid shape under Mancini (which is the reason our defensive record has been so good) to now doing a high defensive line and press under Mancini.

Barca under Guardiola are actually the only team that really does both.

Melton

Roo of course got a payrise in 2010. The new contract was not related to him wanting to leave though. It was already on the table when he asked to leave as Sir Alex pointed out

Thought it was common knowledge Roo got a substantial payrise in his new contract at the time

"Cheers Melton. I thought that was what you meant - I just wondered whether you had any figures or any reason to believe that the increase in wages was specifcially related to Rooney."

Red,

No, but it's a no brainer really, it just confirms what Ferguson and Gill said at the time in that he had got a substantial pay rise, that's all.

"Roo of course got a payrise in 2010. The new contract was not related to him wanting to leave though. It was already on the table when he asked to leave as Sir Alex pointed out"

Yep, agreed Macca, I've never said otherwise, just that it was a big rise.

That makes sense.

"A good example would be to watch City this year. We have gone from defending with a very rigid shape under Mancini (which is the reason our defensive record has been so good) to now doing a high defensive line and press under Mancini. "

Pellegrini, that should say!

I also imagine our defensive record will be much the worse for it, at least judging by the cardiff game...