I've read and contributed a lot of comments since the results came out yesterday and felt compelled to have my say on a few of the issues that have since come to light. This is a continuation of a comment I made on another thread.
There's been accusations from leave voters calling out remain voters for stereotyping. Stereotyping is wrong and calling people who voted out racist, ignorant etc is lazy and in itself ignorant. I implore those arguing from a remain perspective not to go down this route. Those that voted to remain are also being stereotyped as being unpatriotic and intolerant of the democratic process. Firstly I'm English (Scouse actually) and don't feel any more or less English as a result of the vote.
With regards to the actual vote. Those that voted leave appear to have done so on the basis of misinformation regarding immigration, monies paid to the EU and our national identity. Immigration isn't going to change, money we no longer pay will not be paid to the NHS, as promised. Our national identity has, as a result of the vote, also become more fractured.
What's happened is typical divide and conquer. The leave campaign appealed to those who feel disgruntled with being a part of the EU due to things like immigration without accounting for the fact that EU immigrants more than contribute to our society. We were also afforded the opportunity to move to any EU country and work without hindrance, which many do. We also benefitted from free healthcare and whilst in EU countries whether living there or on holiday which is more expensive than comparible treatment on the NHS. As with any relationship there are sacrifices (or what are perceived as sacrifices) on our part but there are also benefits.
Living in Liverpool it's obvious to see the transformation of parts of town. This has been done with the help of EU money. Wales, as another example, benefitted from EU funding to the tune of £100's of millions according to those in Welsh politics. Things like CrossRail in London has also benefitted from EU funding. Those are 3 that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there's many more.
The things I feel disgruntled about are voting leave appears to have been done because the need for change. But what exactly has, or will, change? No one seems to be able to answer this question.
I accept the vote being lost, from my perspective. But that doesn't mean I'm going to change my mind that this is a bad thing for my/our country and bad for me/us in the immediate future and for my children and grandchildren later on.
All that has been gained from voting out of the EU is instability, both economically & politically, to be able to say we don't sit at the same table as France, Germany et al anymore.
I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments. But please don't descend into calls of racist etc etc.
EU Referendum and the aftermath
posted on 25/6/16
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by {honestlivpool~five~times} 👽 🐎 #worldpeace (U1661)
posted 2 minutes ago
stock markets are nothing to do with the wealth of the country as a whole. and i'm sure you're aware that the FTSE 100 was actually the best performing major european index yesterday.
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Pound fall, increased debt, loss of investment/pension, confidence, decrease in value of certain products, etc.. I could go. It's probably more than 10% if you carry a proper/more detailed analysis..
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More detailed analysis? you haven't offered any analysis at all!
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The pound was down by around 9% vs USD. I've already listed other elements that may also be influenced by the turmoil with regards to wealth and economy.
posted on 25/6/16
comment by {honestlivpool~five~times} 👽 🐎 #worldpeace (U1661)
posted 7 minutes ago
And €90bn exports will not longer be seen as such as the framework will be different. If the UK do no agree to their terms then they would have to consider what more riskier to them.. i.e. being more favourable to uk and triggering the breakup of the eu - which is a lot more riskier to the German economy - compared to finding another country to trade with / potential €90bn hit. Obviously the 90bn won't just disappear as of German economy as Britain's place will be replaced by someone else.
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You seem to assume that the reason Germany does not already export €90bn to the rest of the world is because it chooses not to, ie that the current level of exports is determined by capacity constraints rather than limited demand, so that they can just pick up €90bn of orders from elsewhere and cut off the UK.
But there is no way on earth that is true, and so no way on earth that they will make life so difficult for the UK that EU exports will go to zero. there will be negotiation, and there will be demands, some of which will be met, some of which won't.
so i agree that they won't want to risk the whole EU breaking up - though i suspect the cat is already out of the bag on that one - but it won't come at the cost of cutting off all trade with the UK, or making it prohibitively expensive, because that would push the entire EU into recession.
posted on 25/6/16
This is an interesting read;
http://news.sky.com/story/1717515/will-brexiteers-deliver-on-campaign-pledges
The more I look into this the more concerned I am that although we've voted out nothing is really going to change. All it appears to have done is create a huge chasm across our nation along Geographical, Social and Economical lines. And for what?
posted on 25/6/16
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by {honestlivpool~five~times} 👽 🐎 #worldpeace (U1661)
posted 7 minutes ago
And €90bn exports will not longer be seen as such as the framework will be different. If the UK do no agree to their terms then they would have to consider what more riskier to them.. i.e. being more favourable to uk and triggering the breakup of the eu - which is a lot more riskier to the German economy - compared to finding another country to trade with / potential €90bn hit. Obviously the 90bn won't just disappear as of German economy as Britain's place will be replaced by someone else.
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You seem to assume that the reason Germany does not already export €90bn to the rest of the world is because it chooses not to, ie that the current level of exports is determined by capacity constraints rather than limited demand, so that they can just pick up €90bn of orders from elsewhere and cut off the UK.
But there is no way on earth that is true, and so no way on earth that they will make life so difficult for the UK that EU exports will go to zero. there will be negotiation, and there will be demands, some of which will be met, some of which won't.
so i agree that they won't want to risk the whole EU breaking up - though i suspect the cat is already out of the bag on that one - but it won't come at the cost of cutting off all trade with the UK, or making it prohibitively expensive, because that would push the entire EU into recession.
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I haven't said Germany pick and choose who they trade with. Removal of red take across eu states to create a free market makes it easier to trade. That's why countries want more trade agreements. I.e. Germany are more likely to increase trade with the USA if TTIP deal goes through.
A Britain that is outside the eu potentially creates red tape and restrictions that will make it more difficult for Germany to trade with Britain. Hence why I've said the €90bn is likely to be irrelevant.
posted on 25/6/16
Sorry mate I can't see any logic in saying the 90 bn is irrelevant
It's 90 bn in sales to the companies in its most important. Industries
posted on 25/6/16
comment by The Kaiser's Trainers (U5676)
posted 1 minute ago
Sorry mate I can't see any logic in saying the 90 bn is irrelevant
It's 90 bn in sales to the companies in its most important. Industries
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It's no longer 90bn as unless the UK remain part of the single market. That's my point.
posted on 25/6/16
??? what are you smoking?
90bn worth of goods is 90bn worth of goods. whether we're in the eu or not.
if they force trade tariffs on us, we might buy less, but end up paying around the same amount including tariffs, we might buy the same amount but pay more including tariffs, we'd sure as hell look at getting a similar amount back in trade tariffs of our own.
that's how trade tariffs work, they're reciprocal, they work both ways.
net result, Germany exports 90bn worth of goods to the uk.
it's so bloody simple and obvious, why can't you get your head around it, you had the same problems understanding quite simple concepts of how the financial markets worked. now it's the trade markets.
for all yours and redintheheads supposed research you claimed to be doing before the vote, neither of you actually seem to have learnt much.
posted on 25/6/16
comment by 19th title coming soon. (U12879)
posted 37 minutes ago
??? what are you smoking?
90bn worth of goods is 90bn worth of goods. whether we're in the eu or not.
if they force trade tariffs on us, we might buy less, but end up paying around the same amount including tariffs, we might buy the same amount but pay more including tariffs, we'd sure as hell look at getting a similar amount back in trade tariffs of our own.
that's how trade tariffs work, they're reciprocal, they work both ways.
net result, Germany exports 90bn worth of goods to the uk.
it's so bloody simple and obvious, why can't you get your head around it, you had the same problems understanding quite simple concepts of how the financial markets worked. now it's the trade markets.
for all yours and redintheheads supposed research you claimed to be doing before the vote, neither of you actually seem to have learnt much.
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We are speaking of future trades. Of course 90bn is 90bn. We may eventually find trades similar worth outside eu, but we may not. Also we could end up giving up even more law or as leavers call it "sovereignty" to whoever we end up striking the deal with, along with other trades the we had with the eu worth billions of pounds, which contribute to put us among the top 6 economies in the world. Fact is that life will be much more difficult.
posted on 25/6/16
Report: Britain doesn't have the expertise to negotiate bilateral trade agreements.
The former top official at the Foreign Office, Sir Simon Fraser, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that Britain doesn't have the expertise to negotiate its own trade agreements.
As agreements have been negotiated by the EU for decades, Britain is unprepared to act independently, with two few officials with the necessary expertise.
"I doubt there are more than between a dozen and 20 serving British officials who have real experience of trade negotiations."
The UK will need hundreds of experts to act in this area alone, added Sir Simon.
posted on 26/6/16
It's the end of the world, isn't it? I mean, we've never been in such a dire, life threatening, demoralised, pitiful, catastrophic state than we are in right now, aren't we? It really is the end of the world.
This is a thousand times worse than we were in 1918 and 1945 after the two world war thingys when millions (of people, not just money, which is far more important isn't it?) were lost. On reflection these times must seem like a doddle when compared to the Armageddon we will inevitably face now that some of us - not all, perish the thought - have managed to cheat ourselves out of that glorious institution, the EU.
Can this drivel get any worse? Am I making it any worse by these inane comments?
Probably.
It's the end of the world. Again.
JimmyTheRed