1. Hes trophy total isn't actually that great, I think the unbeaten season is a little overrated don't get me wrong its probably my favorite football memory but if we were truly unbeatable surely we would of won a cup?
Never won consecutive titles which imo is the sign of truly great manager unless your winning the Champions League or World Cup, George Graham only has 1 less trophy in about 5 years less ( Community Shields not included)
2. Refusal to buy a CB in January when he knew Vermaelen was out for the rest of the season, If he would of bought Samba in January when the confidence was still high i'm pretty sure we would of won the CC and who knows what else meaning Nasri and Fabregas would be more inclined to stay.
3. Massive contracts for average players and keeping faith with those average players for way too long.
4. Disbanded a unbeaten side within 2 seasons so he can try his youth plan, people say we didn't have the money to compete because of the move to the Emirates but around the same time we signed a 18 year old Denilson for £3 million Carrick was moving to Tottenham for £3.5 million after initially being linked with us (say what you want about Carrick but there's no way you can logically say he wouldn't of been the better option.
I'm not saying we should of signed Carrick i'm just bringing attention to the idea that we had no choice but to sign young players and go that way seems a bit shallow when you can pick up quality players for the price your paying for youngsters.
5. Needed us to lose 8-2 to United before he actually did anything in the transfer market and in the end all he did was bring in 4 panic buys to appease the fans, Arteta is the only player that improves our first team. You have all the summer but you wait until the last day, someone please explain the logic in that? The waiting for Champions League qualification argument would work if we signed class players but I couldn't see any of our new signings turning us down because we still had a Champions League qualifier to play only maybe Santos. Most people were resigned to losing both Nasri and Cesc so why wait to sell them to the detriment of the team.
6. Lack of quality signigs, how many summers in a row now have we needed to strengthen but in 3 out of the last 4 seasons with gone into the new season weaker than the previous
7. Tactically inept, how many finals with different sets of players do we have to lose under Wenger before people realise the correlation.
8. Doesn't seem able to motivate the players, the 0-0 with Blackburn last season was the one that sticks out the most for me. It was still in our hands at this point but no one turned up and they weren't any better in the second half, if he can't get the players up for games like that is he really the only man for the job?
9. For the amount he moans about money he sure likes spending money on flops ; Reyes, Jeffers, Arshavin and many more but their the ones that stick out.
10. Playing players out of positions, some managers seem to be able to get the best out of players Wenger seems to be able to get the worse out of them like Arshavin, Bentdner, Eduardo, Walcott.
11. Is it just me or does Wenger seem to be a pathological lier nowadays? He reminds me of a politician always deferring from the question, like Vermaelen situation last season he said he'll be back soon but when the transfer window closed we got the news he was out for the season.
12. RVP given the captaincy not because hes the best candidate but because hes contract is expiring in 2 years and Wenger doesn't want another Nasri on his hands. How we let Nasri's contract run down after what happened with Flamini I'll never know. I think this early on its clear RVP is not a leader on the field, fair enough Vermaelen is injured atm but surely hes the best choice.
13. Our defence (obviously no need to elaborate on this as its been done to death).
14. Our dire form from the last season has carried through to this, if after 6 week break then 6 weeks of preseason there's still no improvement what makes you think its going to during the season.
The Arsene Knows boys I know your gonna 1 star this without even reading but please read all points and actually have a think about not just dismiss it. I'm open to being wrong so if you have something to say it would be appreciated and if it relates to any point put the number next to it.
Decided to edit this because apparently no one to replace Wenger, How about Hiddink, Ancelotti, Hitzfeld, Rudi Garcia, Jurgen Klopp, Moyes, Rijkaard and however unrealistic they are Pep and Mourinho would do a better job. That's 7 viable candidates just of the top off my head I'm pretty sure with a bit of thought I could at least double that.
Why Wenger isn't Irreplaceable?
posted on 21/9/11
"Yes, one less trophy, however Wenger won the Premier league more, than FA cup more, Community shield more blah blah blah, as well as building a £300 million stadium".
Blimey, I didn't know he was a bricky, must have been tiring doing all that. Maybe they should have got a builder involved and spent a bit of time coaching the football team!
posted on 21/9/11
posted on 21/9/11
regardless pie eater, he oversaw a period of transition that has cemented our place as a big club in the future. and he did it whilst keeping us in a lofty position in the league.
it's sadly ironic that things are unravelling just when we s should be bearing the fruits of our patience. and that's in no small part to him believing in his own legend. but he deserves time to rectify what's gone wrong.
posted on 21/9/11
Five head, I was taking the mick somewhat but if that's what's happened they should all be a bit more honest about it so Wenger can be celebrated.
However, I fear that 'cemented your place' may be a little premature. Also, all his bleatings about the FFP, I'm sorry but Arsenal have reaped the benefits of a ridiculously corrupt super league in an attempt to cement (to borrow a phrase) their place and keep others down...
posted on 21/9/11
by cemented I mean we have the infrastructure in place to more easily bounce back from times when we go off the chart.
I know what you're saying about the cl and I somewhat agree and sympathise. But our behaviour throughout has always been responsible especially compared to that of the sugar daddy clubs. we were fortunate to ride the cl wave when we did. I don't think we can be vilified for that.
posted on 21/9/11
Ok, I'll try to tell you why your arguments are weak. Not necessarily wrong, but definately weak.
1/. I notice you don't include what I still think of as the Charity Shield, and I wonder why this is. Maybe it's because if you do then Graham only managed to share one, while Wenger has won 4, which rather dumps from a great height on the 'only one more trophy' 'stat'.
2/. Oh no, not the 'If he'd done this, this would have happened' argument? If I have to explain why this is weak, then I'm wasting my time.
3/. Large contracts were given to keep youngsters at the club, while established players earned less than they could elsewhere. As has already been mentioned, no-one has a crystal ball to say which youngsters will come good and which won't, so again you use hindsight as a mainstay of your argument and that equals a weakness.
4/. You seem not to understand the basic economics of football as a business. It's not the transfer fees that have been the main problem since 2004/05, it's the wages. The unbeaten side was allowed to disband in an effort to keep wages to a minimum. This is why the club went via youth, because established players, while costing what seems like little more in transfer fees, demand significantly more in wages. This is especially true when one considers that RA-owned Chelsea were spending money like water, on transfers AND wages. Remember why Cashley left? Wages. Not transfers.
5/. Are you serious? There's so much wrong with this point it barely deserves a reply, but I'll give it a go. Are you seriously telling me that you believe Wenger had time between the defeat to Man U on Sunday 28/08/11 and the close of the transfer window 3 days later to organise 4 transfers from scratch? If you are, no doubt you must know what detail a football contract contains? To say nothing of personal terms? Somehow, I don't buy this. And you can only really make the other statements you do in this point if you have inside knowledge of how the club was pitched in it's negotiations with Barcelona and Man City. I suspect you don't know any such thing, which makes this point mere speculation pretending to be a serious argument. As I said, weak.
6/. Back to wages again. That's been the bane of the club since the arrival of R. Abramovich. There's the reason for the weakening team - quality has chased the big weekly bucks, and unfortunately Arsenal have been left behind. Hardly something you can pin on Wenger.
7/. Of course Wenger has made mistakes in games, but this is not an argument, merely a statement without any presented evidence. Would/could be a stronger point if you had bothered to produce a fact or two - I can only presume you found this difficult.
8/. While part of a manager's job is to motivate players, it should be a very small part. If a professional player paid tens of thousands a week can't motivate themselves, surely they need to look in a mirror for the reason rather than have people excusing them completely and pointing a finger at the manager?
9/. All managers buy players that don't work and you've been very selective in your choices. Do you expect Wenger to only buy successes? A Wilshere off the production line every year? That's unrealistic, you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this way and therefore this argument too is weak.
10/. So presumably you'd have wanted Henry kept on the wing? That was his original position, so surely, by your argument he should have stayed there? I'd agree many players have been played out of their preferred position in recent years, mostly to accomodate Fabregas and the use of a 4-3-3. While we're on Fabregas, he started as a deep lying midfielder, and left as an attacking mid. Was Wenger wrong again? Sorry, a manager should try different things and as such this is a marshmallow argument.
11/. Now this is just stupid. Why would anyone lie in the full knowledge they will be found out? It makes no sense. Far more likely is that the injury failed to respond or even was made worse by treatment. Talk to any doctor and they'll tell you medicine isn't an exact science. Wenger can only go on what he's told. Maybe this means the medical staff 'made an error' but all that proves is they're human. Weak again.
12/. If you know how to make a player sign a contract, I'm sure every manager in the league and out of it would love to speak to you. I'll use a bit of hindsight now, and say that it seems likely Nasri had a move in mind long before the last year of his contract. Unless you can tell everyone how you would make a player who wants more money and a better chance of silverware sign for a club they will get neither at, this argument too is weak.
13/. I agree!
14/. Erm... maybe because two pivotal players left and new ones came in, after pre-season. So the team as it is hasn't really had a pre-season, so there is reason to think they will improve. Weak again.
And I'm not surprised you edited your post. I got tired of all this after about point 5.
You may have some parts of some points where there's a case to answer, but nowhere is evidence provided that your argument is strong enough to demand Wenger's head.
posted on 22/9/11
Oscandwarf
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1. If you consider the Charity Shield a big trophy is there any point in having a conversation about football?
2. I would of thought 'who knows' was ambiguous enough.
3. You gotta point about hindsight but that doesn't change the fact hes paid £6 million a year to supposedly make the right calls and that's not an excuse for sticking with them so long.
4. If the club was trying to keep the wage bill down why were/are players like Diaby, Denilson, Almunia and etc on such wages. You call me out for a lack of evidence then do the same.
5. How long do you think it takes to do a deal, it can be done within hours. I'm not saying they weren't scouted but I'm confident he wouldn't have made 4 deadline day signings had we not lost 8-2 to United.
6. There's so many players that have move clubs in the last couple of years that could of improved us that didn't cost ridiculous money. If you need me to actually go through good players that have moved for reasonable money in the last few years we shouldn't really be having this conversation.
7. Well considering your suppose to be an Arsenal fan I didn't think I need to but as your acting like you have amnesia for the sake of argument ; UEFA Cup 2006, FA Cup 2001, Champions League 2006, Carling Cup 2007 and 2011. Not too mention he actually has more Premier League runners up medals then anyone else.
8. So the manager should be excused and the players take the blame instead? He bought them, trains them and picks them when does he take some of the criticism?
9. Criticize me for being selective and do the same well played.
10. Same again. Of course I'm not I want players to play in positions where they play well. For example if Arshavin has been under par for 2 seasons now played on the left wouldn't it be an idea to try something else or keep doing the same thing and hope it eventually works which Wenger seems to be doing.
11. http://justarsenal.com/wenger-i-knew-vermaelen-wouldnt-return-this-season/7209 If you say so.
12. Maybe the arguments weak but if you let a player go into the last year of his contract who else are we going to blame. Being a successful club usually improves the chances of a player wanting to sign a new contract as you mentioned in your rebuttal. Asking questions you know the answer to .
13.
14. And who's fault is that? Are you trying to make my argument stronger? Whats wrong with signing players early and giving them time to bed in? Don't tell me you gonna try and argue that's not a good idea either.
posted on 22/9/11
Oscandwarf
Whilst you make some salient points, you also seem to muddle a few too. If this is due to an unwavering support of the manager, then fair enough. However, blind faith in him doesn't alter a few hard to swallow truths:
1/. The Charity Shield is little more than a curtain raiser to a football season. Glitzy it may (occassionally) be, but a major trophy?
3/. So you agree that youngsters are handed lucritive contracts to keep them at the club, yet later say that the Invincibles were disbanded to reduce the wage bill? Investing in untried youth whilst letting proven winners leave is a bit of a gamble that by Wenger and/or the board I'd say.
And what environment has such a ploy created at the club? An environment whereby players such as Diaby and Bendtner can drive around in, (and in the Dane's case, crash) huge fashy cars and generally saunter round like they've got it made... because, ridiculously enough, they have.
6/. Two words: Gokhan Inler. The player moved from Udenese to Napoli for a mere €13m. I'm guessing even we would be able to afford his wages too.
7/. Unfortunately when it has come to the crunch, Wenger has been found wanting far too often. So much so that we're now at a point where most Arsenal supporters would be nervous of facing Championship level opponents in a Cup final.
8/. "While part of a manager's job is to motivate players, it should be a very small part."
Should be... but sadly isn't. Ask any successful manager and I'm sure he'd tell you the same. Why do you think club's routinely employ team psychologists these days? It strikes me that it's as much for the manager's benefit, as to how best to deal with each individual personality, as it is for the players' mental well-being.
10/. Once something has been tried and seen not to be of benefit to either team or player, it should not be persisted with. Yet how many times was Bendtner played out wide last season? How many times was Eboue played in midfield the season before?
Yes, there were the obvious success stories with Henry, Petit and Fabregas. But that doesn't mean that it'll work with every player. Try it, but if it doesn't work out, have the good grace and to be able to admit you got it wrong.
11/. He does lie. He lies to the press in pre-match press conferences, because he thinks he's getting one over on them. The outcome? The press, with their noses put out of joint, then make no bones about their feelings towards the man. This permeates into the fabric of the club and instills a sense of negativity around and towards the club.
Then, (as you state yourself on another thread) the easily led members of the public buy into what they read and so we get a situation whereby booing the team is seen more and more frequently at the Emirates.
I'm not calling for Wenger to lay all his cards on the table, or wear his heart on his sleeve when talking to the press oinks, but don't sit there grinning inanely telling us that you expect no players to leave the club, when Puyol and Pique have already announced that Fabregas has signed for Barca. It's dumb in the extreme... especially when then followed by Nasri's departure to City a matter of days latter.
12/. I don't put at Wenger's feet. At least, not solely. Gazidis and co are more to blame for these situations. Sadly, I think giving Van Persie the captaincy will ultimately prove to be in vain. I sincerely hope I'm wrong though.
14/. This is definately, without shadow of doubt, the manager's fault. You really shouldn't need me to tell you why so.
posted on 22/9/11
comment by Lexington 125.2 vorsprung DEEEEENCH technik (U8879)
No Lex, it's an unwavering support of the manager, simply because he's the manager.
I'm a bit old school like that. I don't think change is always best, and in my opinion it is called for all too quickly.
I haven't got the energy to go through each of the points separately again, but I do know that in almost all respects they share one thing in common.
Each point (regardless of what an individual's opinions are) relies not so much on what is known as what is not, and that's the problem.
No-one outside the club knows enough to comment with absolute authority on any of the points raised (and raised very well) by the poster.
My gripe is how many people I see all bleating the same thing, usually what they've read in the red tops or from malcontents online.
Shame the debate can't be more in-depth, but relying on rumour and conjecture is no real basis for any kind of adult argument.
Either supporters support the manager, or not - it's that simple.
posted on 22/9/11
Fair dos.
I think most of us realise, that 90% of what is discussed on football forums that doesn't pertain to actual playing time, is based more on speculation and opinion rather than hard facts.
If only the FA would agree to a seven games a week policy, this place wouldn't have the chance to get anywhere near as restless as it does.
Everything wrapped up long before Christmas... Arsenal reigning Premiership Champions?