I'm aware that on this forum we have a range of views, and that in these polarised times we sometimes get quite vitriolic about political issues. A lot of that revolves around competing visions of identity, how we approach race and racism, and how (to those it applies to) we feel about our Britishness or Englishness. Brexit asked us to make a binary choice about our relationship with the world, and at the same time put a spotlight on a whole host of these issues that come down to culture and identity, and perhaps led to people of different perspectives relating to them (despite their complexity and nuance) in similarly binary, black-and-white terms.
Football channels our tribal instincts, and national football has always connected with our national feelings and identities. So inevitably the England team has been inseparable from the political discourse. At first it looked like it would simply be a proxy for the wider culture war. Some people (like me) instinctively sympathise with players showing their opposition to racism. Others see that behaviour as divisive or performative, and symptomatic of a left-wing animosity to their own.
I don't have the energy to rehash those arguments, and that isn't the point of this post. What I'd like to explore is the possibility that the qualities shown by the England team, and above all by Gareth Southgate as their leader, offer a glimpse of a recipe for Englishness, or patriotism, or society, that many people who feel quite polarised today can get behind. For a long time there has been a tension between the those who see themselves as first and foremost proponents of British/English interests on one hand, and on the other those who are above all motivated by justice and reform. It has struck me for a while that there ought not to be such a bitter divide between those who love their country and those who want to make it fairer. There's a strong seam of communitarian sentiment running through many Leave voters: a sense of shared identity and shared interests, which isn't a natural ally of the Reece-Mogg libertarianism and doesn't sneer at the idea of the common good. There's also a strong sense of shared interests and common good in your archetypal Remainer - one which has a more international perspective and which sometimes betrays a contempt for the parochial, but I think is also motivated by a sense of a vibrant, healthy Britain. So the core differences I think are in how widely we are willing to define who we include in our shared space of common interests and identity. Do we include each other in our sense of identity?
This is where I think this England team gives us an opportunity to think differently. Some have framed the England players as 'divisive' due to their taking the knee, etc. But I think as we have seen the togetherness of these young players (black and white) and the pride with which they represent their country, and their sense of wanting to make everyone across the country happy, I don't think the accusation particularly sticks. I think as we experience this shared Euro2020 journey, the image of unity drowns out everything else, and it provides a clear demonstration that you can care about child poverty, and resist racism and homophobia, and feel no contradiction between that and unambivalently loving your country.
If this sounds like a lefty claiming victory in the culture war, that's really not where I'm coming from. While some conservatives have lessons to learn about how self-criticism can come from a positive, patriotic place, some progressives also have lessons to learn about applying principles of justice and equality to (yes) 'unambivalently loving' the community they belong to.
Many of you will have come across the essay entitled 'Dear England', which Gareth Southgate published on the eve of the tournament. If you haven't, do so now: https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/dear-england-gareth-southgate-euros-soccer ...It's one of the most profound things I've read about identity. In it he explores what forms his sense of patriotism and what it means for him to represent his country as a player and as England manager. I get a sense that his values in several ways differ from my own, but such is the generosity of his vision, that it's clear our respective sorts of national feeling differ in ways that can co-exist comfortably. There's space for some of us to feel emotional about the monarchy and the armed forces and others to feel more attached to our home town or to the story of the struggle towards universal suffrage. Because Southgate points out that a healthy patriotism must be inclusive, not exclusive.
[Continued below - crikey, I ended up writing a lot]
This team and Englishness
posted on 10/7/21
A lot of people who were born and raised on this island, grew up being told that they're not English and that they should go back to where they came from.
A lot to repair psychologically but as this nation becomes more diverse, there seems to be less division.
Exhibit A
https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1413047627072131074?s=20
posted on 10/7/21
comment by Kung Fu Cantona đđź đľđ¸ (U18082)
posted 23 minutes ago
A lot of people who were born and raised on this island, grew up being told that they're not English and that they should go back to where they came from.
A lot to repair psychologically but as this nation becomes more diverse, there seems to be less division.
Exhibit A
https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1413047627072131074?s=20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a great clip.
I've read accounts recently by people of ethnic minorities who have felt ambivalent about Englishness and the England flag, because they have grown up hearing people associated with that flag telling them to 'go home' or hearing that they might be British but they aren't English, and how this England team and the culture around it makes them feel more English. As a white dude I can't speak for that experience or generalise about it, but it has been good to listen.
posted on 10/7/21
comment by RB&W - Always a Legacy (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 17 hours, 24 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 28 minutes ago
MU52 I don't mean this in a bad way but how would you think you moving to France differs to the Pakistani family moving into your community.
It's an interesting subject for me as I don't really care where people are from as long as they respect the local culture and are decent people. Like I'm certain you are from your posts on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's different in as much as I speak French, had already worked over here, and we have a lot in common, football for a starter. Also my other half is French.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that was the case MU52.
I was just confused when you wrote 'Further more despite living in France for over eleven years, I shout for England, never France, and feel English with no part of me French.' because that didn't sound much like what you've previously described before of your wonderful life there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How does what he says go against him having a wonderful life?
If we go live on Mars, we would still be Earthlings, right, with no part of us Martian and never cheering for the Martian Spaceball team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I read it (perhaps erroneously) is that of the typical Brit abroad who thinks everyone will speak English with them and they don't have to learn the local lingo. It was at odds with the impression I've always had of MU52 of being a cosmopolitan kind of guy. I was delighted that he set me straight soon after.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical French people who live in the type of French villages that Brits buy properties in speak as much English (either because they won't or can't) as the Brits speak French (almost certainly because they can't). This in my experience sometimes leads to French and British neighbours having fruitful relationships despite both parties communicating to each other in a strange comedy language straight out of Allo Allo.... coupled with a series of descriptive hand gestures accompanied by whistles like the Clangers make. But it seems to work.
When you ask the French locals what they think about Brits buying up empty properties in the Regions they all all for it, as they know many of their villages would die if we didn't as the younger French certainly don't want to live there and can't wait to move away. As our French neighbour tells us they welcome the Brits but will draw the line at Parisians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's good to read. If there's a surplus of properties and the young French don't want to buy then incomers are certainly a boon. The way MU52 talks about where he lives certainly makes me feel envious at times!
posted on 10/7/21
Lovely video.
posted on 10/7/21
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - Always a Legacy (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 17 hours, 24 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 28 minutes ago
MU52 I don't mean this in a bad way but how would you think you moving to France differs to the Pakistani family moving into your community.
It's an interesting subject for me as I don't really care where people are from as long as they respect the local culture and are decent people. Like I'm certain you are from your posts on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's different in as much as I speak French, had already worked over here, and we have a lot in common, football for a starter. Also my other half is French.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that was the case MU52.
I was just confused when you wrote 'Further more despite living in France for over eleven years, I shout for England, never France, and feel English with no part of me French.' because that didn't sound much like what you've previously described before of your wonderful life there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How does what he says go against him having a wonderful life?
If we go live on Mars, we would still be Earthlings, right, with no part of us Martian and never cheering for the Martian Spaceball team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I read it (perhaps erroneously) is that of the typical Brit abroad who thinks everyone will speak English with them and they don't have to learn the local lingo. It was at odds with the impression I've always had of MU52 of being a cosmopolitan kind of guy. I was delighted that he set me straight soon after.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical French people who live in the type of French villages that Brits buy properties in speak as much English (either because they won't or can't) as the Brits speak French (almost certainly because they can't). This in my experience sometimes leads to French and British neighbours having fruitful relationships despite both parties communicating to each other in a strange comedy language straight out of Allo Allo.... coupled with a series of descriptive hand gestures accompanied by whistles like the Clangers make. But it seems to work.
When you ask the French locals what they think about Brits buying up empty properties in the Regions they all all for it, as they know many of their villages would die if we didn't as the younger French certainly don't want to live there and can't wait to move away. As our French neighbour tells us they welcome the Brits but will draw the line at Parisians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's good to read. If there's a surplus of properties and the young French don't want to buy then incomers are certainly a boon. The way MU52 talks about where he lives certainly makes me feel envious at times!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rural parts of France are some of my favourite places to visit. Love the pace of life, the weather. So I’m also a tad envious of 52.
posted on 10/7/21
comment by Ole-dirty-baztard - You want ole in, ole out, in, out, in, out, shake it all about. Do the ole Koke-Penited (U19119)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - Always a Legacy (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 17 hours, 24 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 28 minutes ago
MU52 I don't mean this in a bad way but how would you think you moving to France differs to the Pakistani family moving into your community.
It's an interesting subject for me as I don't really care where people are from as long as they respect the local culture and are decent people. Like I'm certain you are from your posts on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's different in as much as I speak French, had already worked over here, and we have a lot in common, football for a starter. Also my other half is French.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that was the case MU52.
I was just confused when you wrote 'Further more despite living in France for over eleven years, I shout for England, never France, and feel English with no part of me French.' because that didn't sound much like what you've previously described before of your wonderful life there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How does what he says go against him having a wonderful life?
If we go live on Mars, we would still be Earthlings, right, with no part of us Martian and never cheering for the Martian Spaceball team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I read it (perhaps erroneously) is that of the typical Brit abroad who thinks everyone will speak English with them and they don't have to learn the local lingo. It was at odds with the impression I've always had of MU52 of being a cosmopolitan kind of guy. I was delighted that he set me straight soon after.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical French people who live in the type of French villages that Brits buy properties in speak as much English (either because they won't or can't) as the Brits speak French (almost certainly because they can't). This in my experience sometimes leads to French and British neighbours having fruitful relationships despite both parties communicating to each other in a strange comedy language straight out of Allo Allo.... coupled with a series of descriptive hand gestures accompanied by whistles like the Clangers make. But it seems to work.
When you ask the French locals what they think about Brits buying up empty properties in the Regions they all all for it, as they know many of their villages would die if we didn't as the younger French certainly don't want to live there and can't wait to move away. As our French neighbour tells us they welcome the Brits but will draw the line at Parisians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's good to read. If there's a surplus of properties and the young French don't want to buy then incomers are certainly a boon. The way MU52 talks about where he lives certainly makes me feel envious at times!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rural parts of France are some of my favourite places to visit. Love the pace of life, the weather. So I’m also a tad envious of 52.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Joie de vivre. Its a magnet for urbane English people.
Have a place in the SW of France to go to one day when I pack it all in. Until then I just visit often.
posted on 10/7/21
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona đđź đľđ¸ (U18082)
posted 23 minutes ago
A lot of people who were born and raised on this island, grew up being told that they're not English and that they should go back to where they came from.
A lot to repair psychologically but as this nation becomes more diverse, there seems to be less division.
Exhibit A
https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1413047627072131074?s=20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a great clip.
I've read accounts recently by people of ethnic minorities who have felt ambivalent about Englishness and the England flag, because they have grown up hearing people associated with that flag telling them to 'go home' or hearing that they might be British but they aren't English, and how this England team and the culture around it makes them feel more English. As a white dude I can't speak for that experience or generalise about it, but it has been good to listen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s true, that’s how many feel including my self but even my feelings have changed as I see the team become
more diverse.
You also can’t help but love the unity within this England squad as well.
This almost brought a tear to my eye.
https://twitter.com/afc_adam7/status/1403713564276400133?s=21
posted on 10/7/21
Patriotism these days is kept alive by sport. The World Cup or Euros come around and the public feel English; the Olympics comes around and the public feel British.
Outside of these events, who really gives it much thought? Should people be basing their identity on something they feel every couple of years, or on something more relevant all year round?
posted on 10/7/21
comment by RB&W - Always a Legacy (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
comment by Ole-dirty-baztard - You want ole in, ole out, in, out, in, out, shake it all about. Do the ole Koke-Penited (U19119)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - Always a Legacy (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 17 hours, 24 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Diavolo Rosso 77 (U2462)
posted 28 minutes ago
MU52 I don't mean this in a bad way but how would you think you moving to France differs to the Pakistani family moving into your community.
It's an interesting subject for me as I don't really care where people are from as long as they respect the local culture and are decent people. Like I'm certain you are from your posts on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's different in as much as I speak French, had already worked over here, and we have a lot in common, football for a starter. Also my other half is French.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that was the case MU52.
I was just confused when you wrote 'Further more despite living in France for over eleven years, I shout for England, never France, and feel English with no part of me French.' because that didn't sound much like what you've previously described before of your wonderful life there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How does what he says go against him having a wonderful life?
If we go live on Mars, we would still be Earthlings, right, with no part of us Martian and never cheering for the Martian Spaceball team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I read it (perhaps erroneously) is that of the typical Brit abroad who thinks everyone will speak English with them and they don't have to learn the local lingo. It was at odds with the impression I've always had of MU52 of being a cosmopolitan kind of guy. I was delighted that he set me straight soon after.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical French people who live in the type of French villages that Brits buy properties in speak as much English (either because they won't or can't) as the Brits speak French (almost certainly because they can't). This in my experience sometimes leads to French and British neighbours having fruitful relationships despite both parties communicating to each other in a strange comedy language straight out of Allo Allo.... coupled with a series of descriptive hand gestures accompanied by whistles like the Clangers make. But it seems to work.
When you ask the French locals what they think about Brits buying up empty properties in the Regions they all all for it, as they know many of their villages would die if we didn't as the younger French certainly don't want to live there and can't wait to move away. As our French neighbour tells us they welcome the Brits but will draw the line at Parisians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's good to read. If there's a surplus of properties and the young French don't want to buy then incomers are certainly a boon. The way MU52 talks about where he lives certainly makes me feel envious at times!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rural parts of France are some of my favourite places to visit. Love the pace of life, the weather. So I’m also a tad envious of 52.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Joie de vivre. Its a magnet for urbane English people.
Have a place in the SW of France to go to one day when I pack it all in. Until then I just visit often.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There’s just something very relaxed about it. I genuinely love the place, and I’ve been all over the world too, so have plenty to compare.
posted on 10/7/21
The ugly side I was referring to earlier…
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMd4kjvV7/
Continued
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMd4kJDgH/