Zlatan vs Ronaldo

I think the whole "style of play" is really over egged. Sure, there are coaches with clear and very specific ways of playing but this can also be a negative. I've seen Pep criticised plenty of times for failing to have a plan b. Klopp failed pretty badly to adapt last year, even though he had a team far more capable than the results he was getting but he is a little set in stone so couldn't seem to adapt.

I look at some of Fergie's United teams and I don't see these ultra specific styles either. I actually think the way we approach things is probably very similar to how he used to, which makes sense seeing as Ole played and learned under him.

But yeah, this relatively new obsession with a "style" is often a bit OTT.

I think it's important to differentiate what we're talking about, Garner. 'Pattern' and 'control' are different things.

We do have recognisable patterns of play. A few months ago when this topic came up before Rosso described in great detail how we work to progress the ball forward, the shape of the team in each phase of play. There are pretty evident tactics, and there are variations in those tactics based on the kind of opposition we are facing.

As far as I understand it, what differentiates us from e.g. City is the extent to which Guardiola drills these patterns into his team and the rules he sets around their implementation and the progression from one pattern to the next, where Solskjaer (like Mourinho) leaves greater scope for players to interpret and improvise.

Another variable here is 'control' - and with a proactive side like Guardiola's that seeks to dominate the ball it may be clearer to see the patterns, which are instrumental to keeping hold of it, than one which is happy to be reactive (and certainly doesn't play an aggressively high line) and which will not be so preoccupied with not losing the ball when it attacks. I mean, City will keep moving the ball around using drilled patterns in search of a goal, whereas United will be willing to try something ambitious and creative, with a high risk of losing the ball but be happy enough to do so and wait for the next chance to attack on the transition. In a way, the more reactive / pragmatic the football, the less reliant you are on those patterns.

To be clear, this is in no way a defence of Solskjaer vs Guardiola as a coach. I'd swap them in a heartbeat. I just think it's a bit simplistic to see the way we're approaching tactics and coaching as somehow not knowing how to do the basics.

comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 2 minutes ago
"To suggest utf lack of pattern, control or whatever you want to control is by design is simply be disingenuous."

That's not how I read the response and don't think it's put in the way they had intended it either.
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I stand corrected
Apologise RR if I misrepresented you comment. Explains why it seemed so incongurent to what I usually read from you which isusually sensible even when I disagree
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Apology not needed! You're very welcome to disagree with me, and there's a strong possibility that you're right and I'm wrong.

Comment Deleted by Site Moderator

RR, I clearly misunderstood you initial comment

I have re read it now. I agree that what you say about having a general philosophy and giving players freedom. But I still dis agree. The players may be coached and given tactical instructions but watching utd the players and team as a whole do not appear well drilled in dealing with certain challenges a top team will encounter.

This is when they rivert to the disorganised and disjointed mess i see in more than 60% of most games when they have to advance the ball beyond their own half.

And people like to compare utd style of play to say chelsea or city and kid ourselves that it is ok to not be like them. The truth is we only need to compare our style of play to the likes of soton and wolves. Who looked better coached?

having said all of the above, I am currently very optimistic for this season

and also think ole as done a good job even if I believe a better manager will maybe achieve more

comment by Bumblebeetuna (U4302)
posted 2 hours, 42 minutes ago
comment by rosso - time to #takefootballback (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 26 seconds ago
comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by FFS Mike. (U1170)
posted 1 minute ago
Most of the 'fans' we have on this board spend every week slating our general tactics and style of play anyway so Ronaldo won't be ruining anything.
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I was going to post this
we do not have a style of play whether it due to poor coaching, management or players. So maybe my concerns about utd become ronaldo centric is unfounded afterall imo utd simply rely on individuals to provide moment of magic in attack rather than having an attacking pattern
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When a team does not have a style of player, 9 times out of 10 the manager is blamed!!! Why when is OLE should we blame the players??? A manager has spent 400m pounds sterling, why should we make excuses.
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that is a conversation we have had to death and most know how different posters feel on the topic.
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Well it is time the imbeciles wake up. A manager that has been given what Ole has been given, with no style of play, only one person to blame. You cannot tell me if we had Guardiola or Klopp in this squad we won't have a style of play. Heck LVG with inferior players we had a style of play. It was not pretty against the bottom sides, but we definitely had a way of playing
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I'd say you have a style now. I just don't think it is something that will win you a Prem or CL.
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Style is to an extent arguable, particularly when people use the term to describe a singular, clearly-defined identity. Ole’s football doesn’t neatly and conveniently adhere one of the more easily recognisable modern tactical blueprints (which is why you’ll repeatedly read inane shiiit on here like, “What actually is it? It isn’t tiki taka, it isn’t all out counter attack, it isn’t a high full press, so what is it?” like there are only three or four different ways to approach the game).

It does particularly make me laugh though when people - after watching scores of games over the last two years - still don’t recognise specific tactical approaches and patterns of play.

Like, what the fack do you actually do when you watch football? Have you remembered to open both of your eyes fully?
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Ole's approach is, come out first half like the team just got out of bed after a night out, concede a goal or two, then come out all guns blazing second half for about 10-15 min, get back in the game, and then switch off again.
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I haven’t played FM for many years, but doesn’t surprise me to see they developed the tactical options to this extent.

What a game.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 32 minutes ago
When it comes to 'style of play', people are deluded if they really think we don't do tactics, just chuck expensive players on the pitch and ask them to improvise, that Ole 'doesn't coach' the team. If any of that were remotely true, we would be finishing mid-table at best, regardless of the quality of the squad. What does seem to be true is that this United side (like Mourinho's) follows a philosophy that's not based on training prescriptive patterns for particular phases of play, which is something that can make a team's style look more recognisable (as Rosso alludes to) and more fluent. There are obvious upsides to that fluency you see from e.g. a Guardiola team, and personally I'd like to see a bit more of it in United's patterns. But there are also potential advantages to having the unpredictability and flexibility of a less prescriptive approach, and I think that might be one of the reasons why United were better on paper than on the eye. We can justifiably criticise Solskjaer's methods but it's puerile to declare it's just PE teacher shortcomings: it's a legitimate approach shared by many hugely successful and talented coaches, even if there's evidence to support an argument that the way the game has shifted means the advantages are outweighed by the downsides.
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Yes, we “do tactics”, and practice playing patterns. Issue is those are generally slow, indecisive and easy to defend against.

I do agree that our players shouldn’t be drilled into robots in the final third given their talent, but they should be far better drilled at basics like playing out from the back or pressing.

Team was pinned in our half for nearly fifteen minutes in the last match. It is embarrassing given the talent on the pitch. Vast majority of teams won’t struggle like that against wolves.

I see you are looking for positives, but coaching or lack of it is the biggest weakness of ole and his staff. And it is the reason why our football sh$t for most of the matches.

comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Bumblebeetuna (U4302)
posted 2 hours, 42 minutes ago
comment by rosso - time to #takefootballback (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 26 seconds ago
comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by FFS Mike. (U1170)
posted 1 minute ago
Most of the 'fans' we have on this board spend every week slating our general tactics and style of play anyway so Ronaldo won't be ruining anything.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to post this
we do not have a style of play whether it due to poor coaching, management or players. So maybe my concerns about utd become ronaldo centric is unfounded afterall imo utd simply rely on individuals to provide moment of magic in attack rather than having an attacking pattern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When a team does not have a style of player, 9 times out of 10 the manager is blamed!!! Why when is OLE should we blame the players??? A manager has spent 400m pounds sterling, why should we make excuses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that is a conversation we have had to death and most know how different posters feel on the topic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it is time the imbeciles wake up. A manager that has been given what Ole has been given, with no style of play, only one person to blame. You cannot tell me if we had Guardiola or Klopp in this squad we won't have a style of play. Heck LVG with inferior players we had a style of play. It was not pretty against the bottom sides, but we definitely had a way of playing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say you have a style now. I just don't think it is something that will win you a Prem or CL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Style is to an extent arguable, particularly when people use the term to describe a singular, clearly-defined identity. Ole’s football doesn’t neatly and conveniently adhere one of the more easily recognisable modern tactical blueprints (which is why you’ll repeatedly read inane shiiit on here like, “What actually is it? It isn’t tiki taka, it isn’t all out counter attack, it isn’t a high full press, so what is it?” like there are only three or four different ways to approach the game).

It does particularly make me laugh though when people - after watching scores of games over the last two years - still don’t recognise specific tactical approaches and patterns of play.

Like, what the fack do you actually do when you watch football? Have you remembered to open both of your eyes fully?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ole's approach is, come out first half like the team just got out of bed after a night out, concede a goal or two, then come out all guns blazing second half for about 10-15 min, get back in the game, and then switch off again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven’t played FM for many years, but doesn’t surprise me to see they developed the tactical options to this extent.

What a game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
O…k. I know you’d back Ole till the dinosaurs are resurrected but there are obvious flaws to our game that have not been addressed for some time now.

comment by Bumblebeetuna (U4302)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Bumblebeetuna (U4302)
posted 2 hours, 42 minutes ago
comment by rosso - time to #takefootballback (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 26 seconds ago
comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Garner be a star (U13920)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by FFS Mike. (U1170)
posted 1 minute ago
Most of the 'fans' we have on this board spend every week slating our general tactics and style of play anyway so Ronaldo won't be ruining anything.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to post this
we do not have a style of play whether it due to poor coaching, management or players. So maybe my concerns about utd become ronaldo centric is unfounded afterall imo utd simply rely on individuals to provide moment of magic in attack rather than having an attacking pattern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When a team does not have a style of player, 9 times out of 10 the manager is blamed!!! Why when is OLE should we blame the players??? A manager has spent 400m pounds sterling, why should we make excuses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that is a conversation we have had to death and most know how different posters feel on the topic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it is time the imbeciles wake up. A manager that has been given what Ole has been given, with no style of play, only one person to blame. You cannot tell me if we had Guardiola or Klopp in this squad we won't have a style of play. Heck LVG with inferior players we had a style of play. It was not pretty against the bottom sides, but we definitely had a way of playing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say you have a style now. I just don't think it is something that will win you a Prem or CL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Style is to an extent arguable, particularly when people use the term to describe a singular, clearly-defined identity. Ole’s football doesn’t neatly and conveniently adhere one of the more easily recognisable modern tactical blueprints (which is why you’ll repeatedly read inane shiiit on here like, “What actually is it? It isn’t tiki taka, it isn’t all out counter attack, it isn’t a high full press, so what is it?” like there are only three or four different ways to approach the game).

It does particularly make me laugh though when people - after watching scores of games over the last two years - still don’t recognise specific tactical approaches and patterns of play.

Like, what the fack do you actually do when you watch football? Have you remembered to open both of your eyes fully?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ole's approach is, come out first half like the team just got out of bed after a night out, concede a goal or two, then come out all guns blazing second half for about 10-15 min, get back in the game, and then switch off again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven’t played FM for many years, but doesn’t surprise me to see they developed the tactical options to this extent.

What a game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
O…k. I know you’d back Ole till the dinosaurs are resurrected but there are obvious flaws to our game that have not been addressed for some time now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not backing Ole, it's laughing at the idea that that's an approach you can implement