Morning All... disappointing result yesterday.... hard not to be a little concerned going into the Bournemouth & Brentford games..... who'd a thought that at the final whistle at the Ethiad ? I guess that's Spurs for ya ?
I heard Ange saying we don't currently have the squad to deal with injuries, suspensions and number of games we have to play.
Last season he was bemoaning the fact we didn't have enough games to give everyone game time (Perhaps playing a decent side at Fulham in LC would help)
We spent 50mln quid this summer on 2 kids who never start in The Prem and Solanke (good signing).
So what is it Ange, He talks endlessly about all the things "we want to achieve" I have no idea what that means. He gets upset when he says people unfairly criticize him and Spurs but what does he expect? Surely there's a element of pragmatism in all elements of life.... His job is to WIN games.... what's the point of wins at Old Trafford & Man City if you cant motivate the players to get more than 2 points from Leicester, Ipswich, Palace and Fulham.
Maybe I just don't live Ange's world perfect principles, but Id have taken an ugly point at City if it had meant taking 12 points from the games I mentioned.... That to me would represent progress vs whatever his version of progress is
Either there is some kind of disconnect between Ownership, Management, Players and Fans at Spurs or Ange is just trying to baffle everyone with ideology and waffle until he eventually gets fired.
I don't dislike Ange but something is wrong at Spurs.... I suspect it all starts with Levy.... He ultimately sanctions the players coming in, hires the managers etc....
I cant help wondering if Levy liked winning as much as he likes money would there be a different/ more focused mentality at Spurs ?
Im baffled
A disconnect somewhere ?
posted 12 hours, 12 minutes ago
Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.
posted 4 hours, 17 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 18 hours, 9 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 10 seconds ago
I think Ange is enjoying his day in the Sun...... I suspect in 12 months he'll be back in Oz, enjoying his pay-off and you'll never hear from him again. I don't think he was hired because anyone thought he was born winner/ great football tactician.... He was medicine to cure a fan base disillusioned after years of Conte, Jose & Nuno..... He's exactly what it says on the tin. A smart business decision (bums back on seats) but the wrong football one...... now where have I seen that before
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And again. You're good at it.
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Like I said.... I'm baffled about Spurs.. Dunno if its Ange, Levy, The players..... But something aint right.... who knows
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Baffled? There's nothing baffling about Spurs current situation. Yes we have injuries, but that's the nature of the Premiership and every club has injuries.
The problem is the manager.
I think he's lost the dressing room.
Why? Because most sensible players know that all out attack 100% of the time gets punished. And you have to be able to put some effort into defence.
I was very struck by the Fulham game because most of the time, first half anyways, Fulham played well, and we actually had a defensive back four....Porro, Dragusin, Davies, Udogie.
And they played damned well. Kelp Fulham out of our goal. With a little help from Forster.
It was when we all went upfield in the manager's all out attack, and left Forster looking for a pair of binoculars to see where his defence was, that Fulham actually did what all the managers are doing to us now....hoof the ball downfield and start a foot race.
Result: 2 points lost.
For Ange I think the writing is on the wall...get lucky or get lost..... by Xmas!
posted 2 hours, 52 minutes ago
comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.
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Current firstteam:
Vicario
Van de Ven
Solanke
Johnson
Maddison
all bought for Ange and the first XI at about £210m
back up to first XI:
Dragusin, Werner, Odobert at about £50m
Kids, to play some part now but bigger future:
Gary (18), Bergvall (18), Veliz (19), Phillips (18) Vuskovic (16) at about £70m
So roughly first team spend 65%, first team squad 15%, future 20%
I just have a real problem when people say stuff to support their narrative and it just aint true.
posted 2 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 13 hours, 29 minutes ago
Good debate, interesting points. Im not solely blaming Ange, levy or the players but I just feel like something aint right. I'm afraid I dont buy the argument thats its a process and that Ange needs time. I honestly don't think His way of playing will work at the highest level... sure it will bring the odd win to be savored but for him to get Spurs to win consistently playing the way he does would basically being him revolutionizing Football at the top level as we know it... He aint Pep and we aint Man City.
All of the great winning teams have been built on Solid foundations...For the very simple reasons that the fancy players at the other end don't always bring their shooting boots etc. Pep's City, Fergie's United. Jose's Chelsea., Kilopp's Liverpool & Wegner's Arsenal were all fantastic teams who scored a ton of goals and played wonderful football but it was all built around keeping them out first... Every good team knows when to take a draw and move on..... Spurs dont
Like I said earlier, I've seen nothing from Ange to suggest he's anything more an than medicine manager post Conte & Jose....... The neutrals love to watch us, Nobody respects us
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So we will not win anything this season. You know that for sure because you have watched Spurs for 15 months under Ange and have concluded that we are incapable of beating any team on their day.
I find that a staggering conclusion to reach and I fail to understand how anyone can find any joy in supporting their club when 1/3 into the season, in all the cups, a handful of points off 2nd and the season is written off.
No doubt you have the "I hope i'm proved wrong" tag lined up ready to go, but for me, supporting a team isnt about "hoping to be proved wrong". In fact that is almost the opposite of support.
posted 2 hours, 14 minutes ago
Both sides of this debate are so entrenched in their views that, despite what the other says, their views won't change.
I even read comments from a couple of fans on here saying that we should put an asterisk against the wins against Man City and Man Utd, because somehow they were not real wins because of the circumstances!
The negativity towards Ange is remarkable, but it is what it is. Time will tell as to which side of this argument is right.
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
I’m confused by the strategy at the club. Was it to plan for the future and buy prospects? Ok, well then you actually have to play these prospects. Start them or you end up with loads of injuries. Or a situation where they just get thrown in and look way out of their depth
What was the point of putting spence on another contract? Porro looks knackered and no sign of spence anywhere
We kept lankshear as third choice striker but Ange refuses to bring him on when we need a goal
Our whole game centres around inverted wingbacks, a hugely energetic number 6 and a goalkeeper that can beat a press by playing out from the back
Yet we sign literally zero back ups to those positions
We don’t put Spencer in the Europa squad, instead we put two extra goalkeepers in that Ange refuses to play
I don’t see any kind of joined up thinking between the management and the board, just like under conte, mourinho, Poch etc etc etc
I don’t blame Ange, although I do find some of his decisions very strange.
That’s why I think Ange will join the ever growing list of managers who cannot make the Enic strategy work in the field, simply because it doesn’t.
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!
I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.
At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!
I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.
At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between
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I have always said that i completely understand fans' impatience because we have been jam tomorrow for so long.
But this is a long term project and fans have to get onboard with that. Ange has a 4 year deal. We have a young squad that will grow together. We have enough quality to be top 6 and may be better and we have enough quality to beat anyone on our day, and we have. I think the only teams Ange hasnt beaten is Chelsea (L, L) Wolves (L,L) and Arsenal D,L,L).
DO fans look at our squad an think it's complete? No, they're probably thinking we need another back up CB (£25m) a back up LB (£30m) and a stand out wide attacker to replace Son/Werner (£60-75m) and a better no.2 GK (£15-20m). That's another £130-£150m and that's probably the bare minimum.
SO of course this is long term. Come this time next year it could be £0.5bn spent under Ange's reign from a chairman who "doesn't back the manager"
We remain a work in progress but we do need to see improvement over this season. Improved defensive record, improved away form, greater consistency.
We know on our day that we are a force to be reckoned with so this may mean we are more of a cup team than a league team right now, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing at this stage, but we do need to begin to move on from great one-off performances.
The Fulham game was nearly perfect for us. It would have been absolutely ideal with win badly, with a lot missing, because so far this season we have shown that below par performances end in losses. So a draw was not the worst thing, if you can accept that a team will not always be at its very best and needs to grind a result from time to time (we nearly did it and the fact their goal was deflected and they should have had 2 red cards, was a bit unlucky).
It's those sorts of games where we need to get something and if we had played badly and beaten Ipswich and drawn at Palace, then we'd be right in there, and we'd still be disappointed with a Fulham draw, but not disastrous.
So for me we are not too far off. We need to make these small improvements, but fans needs to accept that sometimes we will drop points because we are far from the finished article, individually or as a sqaud.
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
posted 9 minutes ago
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
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How is it bonkers for a fanbase to expect a level of consistency? Your performances are so flaky and this suggests your Manager doesn't know what he is doing tactically. You've excellent players by the way so should be taking advantage of the dodgy results of late of the other big teams (bar Liverpool)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!
I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.
At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between
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I have always said that i completely understand fans' impatience because we have been jam tomorrow for so long.
But this is a long term project and fans have to get onboard with that. Ange has a 4 year deal. We have a young squad that will grow together. We have enough quality to be top 6 and may be better and we have enough quality to beat anyone on our day, and we have. I think the only teams Ange hasnt beaten is Chelsea (L, L) Wolves (L,L) and Arsenal D,L,L).
DO fans look at our squad an think it's complete? No, they're probably thinking we need another back up CB (£25m) a back up LB (£30m) and a stand out wide attacker to replace Son/Werner (£60-75m) and a better no.2 GK (£15-20m). That's another £130-£150m and that's probably the bare minimum.
SO of course this is long term. Come this time next year it could be £0.5bn spent under Ange's reign from a chairman who "doesn't back the manager"
We remain a work in progress but we do need to see improvement over this season. Improved defensive record, improved away form, greater consistency.
We know on our day that we are a force to be reckoned with so this may mean we are more of a cup team than a league team right now, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing at this stage, but we do need to begin to move on from great one-off performances.
The Fulham game was nearly perfect for us. It would have been absolutely ideal with win badly, with a lot missing, because so far this season we have shown that below par performances end in losses. So a draw was not the worst thing, if you can accept that a team will not always be at its very best and needs to grind a result from time to time (we nearly did it and the fact their goal was deflected and they should have had 2 red cards, was a bit unlucky).
It's those sorts of games where we need to get something and if we had played badly and beaten Ipswich and drawn at Palace, then we'd be right in there, and we'd still be disappointed with a Fulham draw, but not disastrous.
So for me we are not too far off. We need to make these small improvements, but fans needs to accept that sometimes we will drop points because we are far from the finished article, individually or as a sqaud.
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
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Good post....I agree with much it but I don't share in your optimism but thats cool... No need for everyone to think the same.. I fear I'm too old and too cynical to believe that because Ange has a 4 year deal this is some kind of a new dawn and that Spurs are embarking on some kind of long term rebuild. At the end of the day... This is Levy we are talking about and as we all know..... Someone else always carry's the can.... watch your back Ange !