Well done Norway

How would anybody on here feel if a country invaded the Isle of white
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It would improve it.

comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 18 minutes ago
How would anybody on here feel if a country invaded the Isle of white and mascaraed innocent people and took people from the island hostage ?

Or anywhere in the UK for that thought ?

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Let's just imagine that the terrorists who killed innocent civilians on the Isle of Wight were not associated with a people who have suffered decades of dispossession and repression, kick off their land, living as second class citizens, seeing their kids shot with impunity by security forces. Let's assume that, unlike Israel with Hamas, the UK had not directly funded the extremist group with officials of the ruling party stating on record that this is done because it is politically expedient to have a militant adversary rather than dealing with a moderate, democratically elected authority. In this case, with the UK an entirely innocent party, I would still not advocate obliterating entire cities and killing tens of thousands of children, desecrating religious buildings, bulldozing public buildings that have survived the bombs, urinating in the destroyed homes of dead or displaced civilians, posing for photos with their underwear, and leaving racist graffiti.

But maybe that's the noble cause you espouse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I couldn't digest all that in one hit, sounds like a bit of a rant.

Look, I am playing devils advocate that is all, I am not saying Israel are right to be doing what they are doing.

All I am doing is answering the question put forward by the OP.

What is the difference between Russia and Israel ?

I don't think anybody 100% still knows why Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. They were not provoked by them were they ?
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Everybody knows why Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine went away from their pro-Russian government and started down a path towards the EU and Nato. They began ridding their government of corruption and brought in Sakashvilli to do this since he had done the same in Georgia when President, which played a part in Russia invading Georgia in 2008.

Russia wants bordering countries to be pro-Russia and not pro-EU and/or Nato.

comment by TheresOnlyOne7-0Reds (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 18 minutes ago
How would anybody on here feel if a country invaded the Isle of white and mascaraed innocent people and took people from the island hostage ?

Or anywhere in the UK for that thought ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's just imagine that the terrorists who killed innocent civilians on the Isle of Wight were not associated with a people who have suffered decades of dispossession and repression, kick off their land, living as second class citizens, seeing their kids shot with impunity by security forces. Let's assume that, unlike Israel with Hamas, the UK had not directly funded the extremist group with officials of the ruling party stating on record that this is done because it is politically expedient to have a militant adversary rather than dealing with a moderate, democratically elected authority. In this case, with the UK an entirely innocent party, I would still not advocate obliterating entire cities and killing tens of thousands of children, desecrating religious buildings, bulldozing public buildings that have survived the bombs, urinating in the destroyed homes of dead or displaced civilians, posing for photos with their underwear, and leaving racist graffiti.

But maybe that's the noble cause you espouse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I couldn't digest all that in one hit, sounds like a bit of a rant.

Look, I am playing devils advocate that is all, I am not saying Israel are right to be doing what they are doing.

All I am doing is answering the question put forward by the OP.

What is the difference between Russia and Israel ?

I don't think anybody 100% still knows why Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. They were not provoked by them were they ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Everybody knows why Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine went away from their pro-Russian government and started down a path towards the EU and Nato. They began ridding their government of corruption and brought in Sakashvilli to do this since he had done the same in Georgia when President, which played a part in Russia invading Georgia in 2008.

Russia wants bordering countries to be pro-Russia and not pro-EU and/or Nato.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So does that make what Russia is doing correct ?

What happens if they conquer the whole of Ukraine ? Do all the countries bordering Ukraine then need to confirm to Russian ways ?

comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 7 minutes ago

So does that make what Russia is doing correct ?

What happens if they conquer the whole of Ukraine ? Do all the countries bordering Ukraine then need to confirm to Russian ways ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You've just flipped the whole argument and lost sight of the question you originally sought to answer.

Nobody here (afaik) is saying that what Russia did is right.

If we take it back to the original question, the implication is that if Russia's banned from international sport, Israel should be too.

comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)

Russia aren’t committing genocide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

'Genocide' is a legal term with precise definitions that are narrower than popularly understood. People get hung up on it because it has come to stand for the worst kind of mass state violence and questioning its use gets interpreted as minimising the gravity. First of all, 'genocide' isn't about the number of % of population killed but specifically about the purpose: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"
So there are instances of relatively small-scale violence which fit more precisely into the definition than other instances of relatively large scale slaughter.

I would dispute that Russia not committing genocide in Ukraine is an obvious statement of fact. The justifications of the invasion by Putin and numerous other leading figures in the Russian state make clear that it is motivated by a denial of the idea of a Ukrainian people. There we have an *intent* 'to destroy, in whole or in part, a national group'. This is underpinned by action, which not only includes mass killing civilians (through bombardment and at close hand) and flattening entire cities, but in occupied territory abduction of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russia, destruction of Ukrainian cultural centres, destruction of monuments to Ukrainian cultural figures, replacing Ukrainian-language education with Russian. There are certain hallmarks of genocide here that are absent in Israel's actions in Gaza.

I do believe both Israel and Russia can legitimately be termed genocidal in these instances. But I do think it's useful to not get hung up on the term. Whether they meet the technical definition of 'genocide' or not, they are monstrous crimes against humanity and we don't need to wait for a formal judgement to understand their profound horror and abomination. E.g. Russia's violence in Syria, enjoying far greater military dominance than in Ukraine, probably resulted in higher per capita death and devastation. No one serious is calling it genocide because its intent was obviously not to destroy particular ethnic or religious groups, but that should not minimise the crime.

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 7 minutes ago

So does that make what Russia is doing correct ?

What happens if they conquer the whole of Ukraine ? Do all the countries bordering Ukraine then need to confirm to Russian ways ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You've just flipped the whole argument and lost sight of the question you originally sought to answer.

Nobody here (afaik) is saying that what Russia did is right.

If we take it back to the original question, the implication is that if Russia's banned from international sport, Israel should be too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I am trying to get everyone's point of view on the whole subject.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)

Russia aren’t committing genocide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

'Genocide' is a legal term with precise definitions that are narrower than popularly understood. People get hung up on it because it has come to stand for the worst kind of mass state violence and questioning its use gets interpreted as minimising the gravity. First of all, 'genocide' isn't about the number of % of population killed but specifically about the purpose: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"
So there are instances of relatively small-scale violence which fit more precisely into the definition than other instances of relatively large scale slaughter.

I would dispute that Russia not committing genocide in Ukraine is an obvious statement of fact. The justifications of the invasion by Putin and numerous other leading figures in the Russian state make clear that it is motivated by a denial of the idea of a Ukrainian people. There we have an *intent* 'to destroy, in whole or in part, a national group'. This is underpinned by action, which not only includes mass killing civilians (through bombardment and at close hand) and flattening entire cities, but in occupied territory abduction of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russia, destruction of Ukrainian cultural centres, destruction of monuments to Ukrainian cultural figures, replacing Ukrainian-language education with Russian. There are certain hallmarks of genocide here that are absent in Israel's actions in Gaza.

I do believe both Israel and Russia can legitimately be termed genocidal in these instances. But I do think it's useful to not get hung up on the term. Whether they meet the technical definition of 'genocide' or not, they are monstrous crimes against humanity and we don't need to wait for a formal judgement to understand their profound horror and abomination. E.g. Russia's violence in Syria, enjoying far greater military dominance than in Ukraine, probably resulted in higher per capita death and devastation. No one serious is calling it genocide because its intent was obviously not to destroy particular ethnic or religious groups, but that should not minimise the crime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t mean to downplay Russia’s crimes with my statement, and I understand your interpretation, but I would still consider Russia’s motivations and actions towards the Ukrainians as slightly different, and why I wouldn’t consider it genocide. I’ll try and reply properly to your post a bit later.

comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by TheresOnlyOne7-0Reds (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 18 minutes ago
How would anybody on here feel if a country invaded the Isle of white and mascaraed innocent people and took people from the island hostage ?

Or anywhere in the UK for that thought ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's just imagine that the terrorists who killed innocent civilians on the Isle of Wight were not associated with a people who have suffered decades of dispossession and repression, kick off their land, living as second class citizens, seeing their kids shot with impunity by security forces. Let's assume that, unlike Israel with Hamas, the UK had not directly funded the extremist group with officials of the ruling party stating on record that this is done because it is politically expedient to have a militant adversary rather than dealing with a moderate, democratically elected authority. In this case, with the UK an entirely innocent party, I would still not advocate obliterating entire cities and killing tens of thousands of children, desecrating religious buildings, bulldozing public buildings that have survived the bombs, urinating in the destroyed homes of dead or displaced civilians, posing for photos with their underwear, and leaving racist graffiti.

But maybe that's the noble cause you espouse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I couldn't digest all that in one hit, sounds like a bit of a rant.

Look, I am playing devils advocate that is all, I am not saying Israel are right to be doing what they are doing.

All I am doing is answering the question put forward by the OP.

What is the difference between Russia and Israel ?

I don't think anybody 100% still knows why Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. They were not provoked by them were they ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Everybody knows why Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine went away from their pro-Russian government and started down a path towards the EU and Nato. They began ridding their government of corruption and brought in Sakashvilli to do this since he had done the same in Georgia when President, which played a part in Russia invading Georgia in 2008.

Russia wants bordering countries to be pro-Russia and not pro-EU and/or Nato.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So does that make what Russia is doing correct ?

What happens if they conquer the whole of Ukraine ? Do all the countries bordering Ukraine then need to confirm to Russian ways ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, which is why they're banned from competitions.

Yes all the countries bordering, not already members of EU and Nato have been placed in the same situation as Ukraine before Russia invaded. However Georgia has a pro-Russian government and is now back to corruption and not wanting to join the EU, in direct opposition to the will of the people. The government use the excuse of not wanting to be the next Ukraine.

So I ask this with the upmost respect. Are Israel doing the same thing as Russia ?

Are they forcing other countries to countries into their way of thinking ? Or are they doing something else ?

comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
So I ask this with the upmost respect. Are Israel doing the same thing as Russia ?

Are they forcing other countries to countries into their way of thinking ? Or are they doing something else ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are in the process of trying to evict a people from their native land by use of brute force (and, incidentally, have been engaged in this process not only since 1947, but even before).

Is that substantially different from what Russia is doing?

Either way, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this shift of the goalposts, but it seems to me that you're clutching at straws in order to deflect from your initial claim, which was, and I repeat verbatim:

"Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.

Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating."