If you think this isn't a class issue then I have to agree with Trigger (you have no idea how much typing that pains me), that you must be a Thatcherite and that you agree with her ludicrous assertion that there is no such thing as society.
I'm going to tell you a few things I know about the current situation as regards the council and the off-loading of essential services to the private sector. I cannot reveal where or from whom I have heard these things as it would put someone in a very sensitive position, if you choose not to believe what I tell you then it's up to you.
The company SERCO that has been charged with running several services around our esteemed borough is complaining now to the people that gave them the contracts that they are not making the money they were projecting and that they're not happy with it. This means that they are going to start charging more money. Unfortunately the areas where they are running some services are in some of the more deprived parts of the town (Breightmet and Tonge moor to name two). I work in the Castle Hill area and SERCO are responsible for the shiny new Castle Hill Centre which as well as having a primary school, has a gym, playing fields and conference rooms. The other day I witnessed myself a group of eight or nine lads on the playing fields having a kick about. They hadn't torn down a fence to get in even though there are 15 feet high barriers around to stop the ball, and they weren't tearing up the turf. A van with two blokes turned up and forced them off the pitch as it being Easter, the buildings were closed.
There used to be an open field there before the centre was built where for no charge a group of lads could kick a ball about til they were starving for supper. Not now. If the management aren't able to make money then they shut it down and the lads have nowhere to have a game. The Tories and labour governments sold off the playing fields remember? Well all the ones that aren't in nice leafy suburbs at any rate.
Not a class issue?
Did we not see the list of the libraries that were closed down recently? All where they are needed most from what I could see. Literacy rates in Bolton's more deprived areas are falling fast and is often quoted by educationalists and probationary services as a huge contributing factor in criminality and subsequent jailing of criminals. You'd have thought those particular libraries are the ones that are needed most.
I too grew up on a council estate and we were dirt poor. I never had a new pair of trainers never mind footy boots. We used to have a kick about with a fly-away (once we found a big heavy leather Casey in my Grandad's cellar) on the local factory car park. I know nostalgia's a wonderful thing but times change and I'd like to think we've moved on from the three day week and all that.
Youth services and those that run them are taking a battering but as long as Bolton Council can hold up the odd flagship scheme like the lads and girl's club then they will be happy to shaft the great work done elsewhere. The Lads and Girl's club do great work incidentally, but they are a money making machine all on their own. The hundred quid a ticket for the Summer invitational ball is proof of that.
Anyway, I apologise for the rant but you cannot tell me that the first to miss out won't be the ones that can least afford to because they always will be, they are now and it's going to keep getting worse for them. In a civil society you lift up those at the bottom, not demonise them and use them as the modern equivalent of a scape goat for the ills of those at the middle and the top.
THC
I'm sorry, I must be a Thatcherite then.
Not a single issue with what you've said, but it's not a class war, it's a governments priority on spending...
I am sick to death of paying for everything and seeing other people getting the same things free... Sports, Dental, Transport, free bloody skips... The original article is sad, and it shouldn't happen... But families in general will prioritise their outgoings.... THEY choose what their money goes on... Some will have sports for children very low on the list...
That's the sad truth...
PS; I was brought up in Daubhill and went to Brandwood Street, no silver spoon up my rear end... I worked hard, and now I pay..... Income Tax, VAT, Savings etc etc etc
Oh and my sons football... £20 a month.
The article and subsequent comments read like 'Give poor kids facilities, or they'll be bored and commit crime... If they do, not really their fault eh.....'
£20 a month.... 2 days cigs for some...
Ok I am done for now..
£20 a month.... 2 days cigs for some...
---
...or 1/2 OZ of draw or 8 bottles of Frosty Jack !
I think it's a bit silly and patronising to talk about the cost of kids playing football in terms of cigarettes, alcohol and class B drugs.
The real world LargeHat, some (that's some) parents make those choices EVERY single day..
It's not silly or patronising, it's fact...
Real world? Oh I thought we were talking about some imaginary world. Anyway.
Yours and Bricks comments don't make it clear if you're talking about parents with substance addictions or whether you're just mocking people who smoke, drink or use class B drugs recreationally. I agree that nobody responsible for children should be using class B drugs by the way, but I don't like the way that got thrown in like it's the same thing as buying a packet of cigarettes, for one thing. Or the implication that people who smoke or drink are less likely to do the right things.
I smoke and drink but don't have any children to finance. If I did and lived and improverished life and there was somehow a situation where a direct choice arose between 60p for my kid to go play football with his mates and me not smoking 2 cigarettes, I just want to make the point that I and the vast majority of parents would obviously pay for the kid to play football.
I do get fed up of smokers being characterised as thick, irresponsible slobs. It is an addiction.
"If I did and lived and improverished life and there was somehow a situation where a direct choice arose between 60p for my kid to go play football with his mates and me not smoking 2 cigarettes, I just want to make the point that I and the vast majority of parents would obviously pay for the kid to play football."
That's the issue.. A lot of parents don't... To ease your obvious upset at the cigs example... I'll use another. Sky packages...
No one used the word thick other than you.
Fine. And I know nobody used the word 'thick'.
Thatcherite....yeh i would go with that. A hero to this country, did so much good for it. Made the tough decisions and stuck by em.
i would love to see every library and sports centre stay open, however, as i have a grip of reality, this is impossible. We cannot keep running these things at a huge loss, which when compared with there useage is not viable. How many of you in the last 12 months has actually used a local library, or Gvnmt funded sports centre. i havent used a library since primary school, the one on Marsh lane in highfield, which was always empty.
I think people just fight for these things to be left open to retain some sort of morale high ground. The libraries need to be closed, there shud be one central library in most towns and cities to house aged documents and historic literature. Same goes with Sports Centres, theyre under-used, under funded. Yes someone will suffer as a result, but so many more will benefit in the long run
Try thinking around a problem rather than.....oooooo sprts centre closing...bad..... library closing.....bad!! We have Wifi and internet now... time to move on, yes it will be difficult at times, but u dont get anywhere by doing it the easy way.
The wealth bashing really needs to stop. If you where given the opportunity, right this second someone said to you, " i can reduce tax bill next month" thus giving you an extra £200 at the end of this month....i wonder how many of you would decline?
Suppose ud just blame Cameron and his cronies.....funny that, the laws surrounding PAYE etc, are largely unchanged for decades.
Have a think eh!
Thatcherite....yeh i would go with that. A hero to this country, did so much good for it. Made the tough decisions and stuck by em.
.......
yep she really sorted it out didn't she...
Introduced a system were the poorer percentage of the population paid more taxes on everything, including the homes they lived in.
sold our industry, along with our utilities and transport to private companies who then raised prices even more.
only thing I agreed with was the Falklands - she protected British sovereignty.
Cameron is starting were she left off, creating a society (sorry, there is no such thing as society) built on making profits for themselves and the businesses that run them...
and seriously...is the country better off now for it all? was it in the days of the iron diyke?
Suppose ud just blame Cameron and his cronies.....funny that, the laws surrounding PAYE etc, are largely unchanged for decades.
........
Laws that can be avoided if your rich enough and creative enough with your accounts...
Have a think eh!
.......
i have, and, with respect, i think your a self-centred idiot, just like Ca-moron and Mrs thunder-pants.
Two points and I know I wasn't going to comment again buy I am making an exception.
NSMB, I agree not all parents put their kids before cigs and booze but like largehat said, most do. That really isn't the point. The parents can please themselves what they do with their money, the kids can't. I hope that you see my point. Then there are the families that genuinly can't afford to send the money on either their recreation or their childrens.
It's a poor stae of affairs when society can't help the deprived and under priviledged. Consider for a moment that we aren't all blessed with intelligence, can't comand a well paid job, or even have a job in these testing times.
BWFCCLEGG, I wonder just how old you are. You obviously know nothing about Thatcher. In my book she was the most evil politician that we have had to suffer in my lifetime. If she is one that you look up to and idolise, thank god I don't know you.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Yes and before I go into the miners strike, I will tell you that I have spoken to not only miners but also some police who wer involved in the strike and the actions that occured during that strike. She had no thoughts about the communities that she was about to destroy.
I never liked Arthur Scagill but when he said that Thatcher had an agenda to close as many mines as she could, he was right as history has proven.
To some that doesn't seem like a bad thing but I went up to county Durham and visited the small the mining villages in that area. in most cases, the mines were all they had in terms of employment. I stayed with two families, who were the salt of the earth and would share their food and welcome you into their homes. They were totally unselfish. Unlike Thatcher.
Well the story is that most of the violence during those strikes was in fact caused to by the police goading the miners. That was addmitted to me by policemen who were shipped around the country on Maggie's orders. Some of them were ashamed by their actions. Thatcher was responsible for setting the police against the miners. Were we in a police state? Yes we were at that time because the leader who some put on a pedistal and idolised, deemed it fit to crush all resistant to her agenda. She was no better than some despot in a backward country.
Just my opinion but researched. Not something I have just dreamed up. That was the type of person she was totally ruthless and in different circumstances, I shudder to tyhink what she would have been capable of.
Just one more point regarding the NHS it's not only the the poor and some scroungers who can't or don't choose to pay their dues, you seem to forget the multi-millionaires, who arrcording to Cameron yesterday, are paying tax that is in single figures. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you have mentioned these people once in your posts. Do you consider tax evassion to be OK? it's not as if they don't have the money, it's just pure greed. We all know the correct rate of tax for these mega rich people and the big corporations that do the same should be paying. No one wants to skin them alive but to me, they are as bad as the scroungers. On the other hand, the poor have nothing to answer for.
I never liked Arthur Scagill but when he said that Thatcher had an agenda to close as many mines as she could, he was right as history has proven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ye... ur right, we should of just kept them open at a loss. Always the correct thing to do. You can bang on about research all you want, uve spoken to a copper and one family, hardly ground breaking research. The mines where closed because they wherent making money. The north east has recovered. If it where left to you lot we would still be milling cotton by hand, cos it keeps someone in a job.
And do you seriously, in your own head believe that Thatcher was out to be "evil". People need to grow up. She did what she believed was the best thing for the country, and sometimes people at that time suffer as a result, which is a shame.
Oh and one other thing... these rich tax evaders who you enjoy castigating, what law have they broke? Just be interesting to see if your knowledge stacks up on this.
Im not sure anyone answered the question about saving tax neither... funny that
Laws that can be avoided if your rich enough and creative enough with your accounts...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
which by the way you have access to, do you pay more tax coz of your morale obligation? Or would you get out of it if you could
No one wants to skin them alive but to me, they are as bad as the scroungers
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be arguing a different end of the spectrum to me, but i entirely agree with this point.... "illegal" tax evasion is disgusting and costs this country, if i remember rightly, around 5-6 more than benefit fraud. However the, under 10% bracket that you refer to, will mostly be legal....i didnt see His Toniness, or Golden Frown changing this.
We have polar opposite opinions on politics, we would never ever agree, however millions would agree with me, and millions with you. So i dont mean any disrespect by any language or tone i have used against thee...... Anyway coyle out!!!
FIGHTT!!!!!
SWIE
You make an excellent point about Tax Evasion, sadly you make it with a poor example...
Most high tax earners are sick to death of the NHS and go private anyway!!!
They can't get seen within a respectable time because of the clogged up system including many people who don't contribute to it!
And re Maggy, she was voted in by the people and kept in by the people...
Not gonna say anymore, its gone well off track from people wanting sports centres to remain open on a loss when other services are on their backside...
Oh and one other thing... these rich tax evaders who you enjoy castigating, what law have they broke? Just be interesting to see if your knowledge stacks up on this.
.......
I think his question is asking more if you consider it morally right as opposed to illegal...
Do you know enough about 'Tax Evasion' Trigg and the contribution various members of society pay or are you grabbing a 'Sun Headline' and running with it?
Forget Moral... Live within the law... People would be thick to pay more than they need to.... And if you knew a way to give yourself more disposal income, you'd take it.
It's the Governments job to implement tax laws so cut the Robin Hood!
Sign in if you want to comment
yet another mess made by bolton council...
Page 2 of 3
posted on 11/4/12
If you think this isn't a class issue then I have to agree with Trigger (you have no idea how much typing that pains me), that you must be a Thatcherite and that you agree with her ludicrous assertion that there is no such thing as society.
I'm going to tell you a few things I know about the current situation as regards the council and the off-loading of essential services to the private sector. I cannot reveal where or from whom I have heard these things as it would put someone in a very sensitive position, if you choose not to believe what I tell you then it's up to you.
The company SERCO that has been charged with running several services around our esteemed borough is complaining now to the people that gave them the contracts that they are not making the money they were projecting and that they're not happy with it. This means that they are going to start charging more money. Unfortunately the areas where they are running some services are in some of the more deprived parts of the town (Breightmet and Tonge moor to name two). I work in the Castle Hill area and SERCO are responsible for the shiny new Castle Hill Centre which as well as having a primary school, has a gym, playing fields and conference rooms. The other day I witnessed myself a group of eight or nine lads on the playing fields having a kick about. They hadn't torn down a fence to get in even though there are 15 feet high barriers around to stop the ball, and they weren't tearing up the turf. A van with two blokes turned up and forced them off the pitch as it being Easter, the buildings were closed.
There used to be an open field there before the centre was built where for no charge a group of lads could kick a ball about til they were starving for supper. Not now. If the management aren't able to make money then they shut it down and the lads have nowhere to have a game. The Tories and labour governments sold off the playing fields remember? Well all the ones that aren't in nice leafy suburbs at any rate.
Not a class issue?
Did we not see the list of the libraries that were closed down recently? All where they are needed most from what I could see. Literacy rates in Bolton's more deprived areas are falling fast and is often quoted by educationalists and probationary services as a huge contributing factor in criminality and subsequent jailing of criminals. You'd have thought those particular libraries are the ones that are needed most.
I too grew up on a council estate and we were dirt poor. I never had a new pair of trainers never mind footy boots. We used to have a kick about with a fly-away (once we found a big heavy leather Casey in my Grandad's cellar) on the local factory car park. I know nostalgia's a wonderful thing but times change and I'd like to think we've moved on from the three day week and all that.
Youth services and those that run them are taking a battering but as long as Bolton Council can hold up the odd flagship scheme like the lads and girl's club then they will be happy to shaft the great work done elsewhere. The Lads and Girl's club do great work incidentally, but they are a money making machine all on their own. The hundred quid a ticket for the Summer invitational ball is proof of that.
Anyway, I apologise for the rant but you cannot tell me that the first to miss out won't be the ones that can least afford to because they always will be, they are now and it's going to keep getting worse for them. In a civil society you lift up those at the bottom, not demonise them and use them as the modern equivalent of a scape goat for the ills of those at the middle and the top.
THC
posted on 11/4/12
I'm sorry, I must be a Thatcherite then.
Not a single issue with what you've said, but it's not a class war, it's a governments priority on spending...
I am sick to death of paying for everything and seeing other people getting the same things free... Sports, Dental, Transport, free bloody skips... The original article is sad, and it shouldn't happen... But families in general will prioritise their outgoings.... THEY choose what their money goes on... Some will have sports for children very low on the list...
That's the sad truth...
PS; I was brought up in Daubhill and went to Brandwood Street, no silver spoon up my rear end... I worked hard, and now I pay..... Income Tax, VAT, Savings etc etc etc
Oh and my sons football... £20 a month.
posted on 11/4/12
The article and subsequent comments read like 'Give poor kids facilities, or they'll be bored and commit crime... If they do, not really their fault eh.....'
posted on 11/4/12
£20 a month.... 2 days cigs for some...
Ok I am done for now..
posted on 11/4/12
£20 a month.... 2 days cigs for some...
---
...or 1/2 OZ of draw or 8 bottles of Frosty Jack !
posted on 11/4/12
I think it's a bit silly and patronising to talk about the cost of kids playing football in terms of cigarettes, alcohol and class B drugs.
posted on 11/4/12
Why?
posted on 11/4/12
The real world LargeHat, some (that's some) parents make those choices EVERY single day..
It's not silly or patronising, it's fact...
posted on 11/4/12
Real world? Oh I thought we were talking about some imaginary world. Anyway.
Yours and Bricks comments don't make it clear if you're talking about parents with substance addictions or whether you're just mocking people who smoke, drink or use class B drugs recreationally. I agree that nobody responsible for children should be using class B drugs by the way, but I don't like the way that got thrown in like it's the same thing as buying a packet of cigarettes, for one thing. Or the implication that people who smoke or drink are less likely to do the right things.
I smoke and drink but don't have any children to finance. If I did and lived and improverished life and there was somehow a situation where a direct choice arose between 60p for my kid to go play football with his mates and me not smoking 2 cigarettes, I just want to make the point that I and the vast majority of parents would obviously pay for the kid to play football.
I do get fed up of smokers being characterised as thick, irresponsible slobs. It is an addiction.
posted on 11/4/12
"If I did and lived and improverished life and there was somehow a situation where a direct choice arose between 60p for my kid to go play football with his mates and me not smoking 2 cigarettes, I just want to make the point that I and the vast majority of parents would obviously pay for the kid to play football."
That's the issue.. A lot of parents don't... To ease your obvious upset at the cigs example... I'll use another. Sky packages...
No one used the word thick other than you.
posted on 11/4/12
Fine. And I know nobody used the word 'thick'.
posted on 12/4/12
Thatcherite....yeh i would go with that. A hero to this country, did so much good for it. Made the tough decisions and stuck by em.
i would love to see every library and sports centre stay open, however, as i have a grip of reality, this is impossible. We cannot keep running these things at a huge loss, which when compared with there useage is not viable. How many of you in the last 12 months has actually used a local library, or Gvnmt funded sports centre. i havent used a library since primary school, the one on Marsh lane in highfield, which was always empty.
I think people just fight for these things to be left open to retain some sort of morale high ground. The libraries need to be closed, there shud be one central library in most towns and cities to house aged documents and historic literature. Same goes with Sports Centres, theyre under-used, under funded. Yes someone will suffer as a result, but so many more will benefit in the long run
Try thinking around a problem rather than.....oooooo sprts centre closing...bad..... library closing.....bad!! We have Wifi and internet now... time to move on, yes it will be difficult at times, but u dont get anywhere by doing it the easy way.
The wealth bashing really needs to stop. If you where given the opportunity, right this second someone said to you, " i can reduce tax bill next month" thus giving you an extra £200 at the end of this month....i wonder how many of you would decline?
Suppose ud just blame Cameron and his cronies.....funny that, the laws surrounding PAYE etc, are largely unchanged for decades.
Have a think eh!
posted on 12/4/12
Thatcherite....yeh i would go with that. A hero to this country, did so much good for it. Made the tough decisions and stuck by em.
.......
yep she really sorted it out didn't she...
Introduced a system were the poorer percentage of the population paid more taxes on everything, including the homes they lived in.
sold our industry, along with our utilities and transport to private companies who then raised prices even more.
only thing I agreed with was the Falklands - she protected British sovereignty.
Cameron is starting were she left off, creating a society (sorry, there is no such thing as society) built on making profits for themselves and the businesses that run them...
and seriously...is the country better off now for it all? was it in the days of the iron diyke?
posted on 12/4/12
Suppose ud just blame Cameron and his cronies.....funny that, the laws surrounding PAYE etc, are largely unchanged for decades.
........
Laws that can be avoided if your rich enough and creative enough with your accounts...
posted on 12/4/12
Have a think eh!
.......
i have, and, with respect, i think your a self-centred idiot, just like Ca-moron and Mrs thunder-pants.
posted on 12/4/12
Two points and I know I wasn't going to comment again buy I am making an exception.
NSMB, I agree not all parents put their kids before cigs and booze but like largehat said, most do. That really isn't the point. The parents can please themselves what they do with their money, the kids can't. I hope that you see my point. Then there are the families that genuinly can't afford to send the money on either their recreation or their childrens.
It's a poor stae of affairs when society can't help the deprived and under priviledged. Consider for a moment that we aren't all blessed with intelligence, can't comand a well paid job, or even have a job in these testing times.
BWFCCLEGG, I wonder just how old you are. You obviously know nothing about Thatcher. In my book she was the most evil politician that we have had to suffer in my lifetime. If she is one that you look up to and idolise, thank god I don't know you.
posted on 12/4/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/4/12
Yes and before I go into the miners strike, I will tell you that I have spoken to not only miners but also some police who wer involved in the strike and the actions that occured during that strike. She had no thoughts about the communities that she was about to destroy.
I never liked Arthur Scagill but when he said that Thatcher had an agenda to close as many mines as she could, he was right as history has proven.
To some that doesn't seem like a bad thing but I went up to county Durham and visited the small the mining villages in that area. in most cases, the mines were all they had in terms of employment. I stayed with two families, who were the salt of the earth and would share their food and welcome you into their homes. They were totally unselfish. Unlike Thatcher.
Well the story is that most of the violence during those strikes was in fact caused to by the police goading the miners. That was addmitted to me by policemen who were shipped around the country on Maggie's orders. Some of them were ashamed by their actions. Thatcher was responsible for setting the police against the miners. Were we in a police state? Yes we were at that time because the leader who some put on a pedistal and idolised, deemed it fit to crush all resistant to her agenda. She was no better than some despot in a backward country.
Just my opinion but researched. Not something I have just dreamed up. That was the type of person she was totally ruthless and in different circumstances, I shudder to tyhink what she would have been capable of.
posted on 13/4/12
Just one more point regarding the NHS it's not only the the poor and some scroungers who can't or don't choose to pay their dues, you seem to forget the multi-millionaires, who arrcording to Cameron yesterday, are paying tax that is in single figures. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you have mentioned these people once in your posts. Do you consider tax evassion to be OK? it's not as if they don't have the money, it's just pure greed. We all know the correct rate of tax for these mega rich people and the big corporations that do the same should be paying. No one wants to skin them alive but to me, they are as bad as the scroungers. On the other hand, the poor have nothing to answer for.
posted on 13/4/12
I never liked Arthur Scagill but when he said that Thatcher had an agenda to close as many mines as she could, he was right as history has proven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ye... ur right, we should of just kept them open at a loss. Always the correct thing to do. You can bang on about research all you want, uve spoken to a copper and one family, hardly ground breaking research. The mines where closed because they wherent making money. The north east has recovered. If it where left to you lot we would still be milling cotton by hand, cos it keeps someone in a job.
And do you seriously, in your own head believe that Thatcher was out to be "evil". People need to grow up. She did what she believed was the best thing for the country, and sometimes people at that time suffer as a result, which is a shame.
Oh and one other thing... these rich tax evaders who you enjoy castigating, what law have they broke? Just be interesting to see if your knowledge stacks up on this.
Im not sure anyone answered the question about saving tax neither... funny that
posted on 13/4/12
Laws that can be avoided if your rich enough and creative enough with your accounts...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
which by the way you have access to, do you pay more tax coz of your morale obligation? Or would you get out of it if you could
posted on 13/4/12
No one wants to skin them alive but to me, they are as bad as the scroungers
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be arguing a different end of the spectrum to me, but i entirely agree with this point.... "illegal" tax evasion is disgusting and costs this country, if i remember rightly, around 5-6 more than benefit fraud. However the, under 10% bracket that you refer to, will mostly be legal....i didnt see His Toniness, or Golden Frown changing this.
We have polar opposite opinions on politics, we would never ever agree, however millions would agree with me, and millions with you. So i dont mean any disrespect by any language or tone i have used against thee...... Anyway coyle out!!!
FIGHTT!!!!!
posted on 13/4/12
SWIE
You make an excellent point about Tax Evasion, sadly you make it with a poor example...
Most high tax earners are sick to death of the NHS and go private anyway!!!
They can't get seen within a respectable time because of the clogged up system including many people who don't contribute to it!
And re Maggy, she was voted in by the people and kept in by the people...
Not gonna say anymore, its gone well off track from people wanting sports centres to remain open on a loss when other services are on their backside...
posted on 13/4/12
Oh and one other thing... these rich tax evaders who you enjoy castigating, what law have they broke? Just be interesting to see if your knowledge stacks up on this.
.......
I think his question is asking more if you consider it morally right as opposed to illegal...
posted on 13/4/12
Do you know enough about 'Tax Evasion' Trigg and the contribution various members of society pay or are you grabbing a 'Sun Headline' and running with it?
Forget Moral... Live within the law... People would be thick to pay more than they need to.... And if you knew a way to give yourself more disposal income, you'd take it.
It's the Governments job to implement tax laws so cut the Robin Hood!
Page 2 of 3