comment by g7 (U12473)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted about a minute ago

On the pitch though at the time people in the UK didn't know what it meant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I still don't know for sure what it means nor the rules for defining a gesture.

Is it what the creator says it means?
Is it what the person making the gesture says it means?
Is it what people of the geographic region where it was made believe what it means?
Is it what the majority say it means?
Is it what critics of gesture say it means?
Should the gesture be judged by the character of its creator?
Should the gesture be judged by the character of its user?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is what the creator says it means imo. If you're the creator and your actions are evil, then making that gusture means endorsing such acts.

g7 that's probably the biggest issue.

I think it should come down to the intent of the person who made it, so what Anelka claims it means.

However if the vast majority people recognise it as meaning something else, then that suggests Anelka is just lying as he would know full well what it means.

So in that comment alone you've defined the gesture In two ways.

By the creator's definition and by his actions.

Which in this case in particular is the controversy.

That was in reply to Boas.

I'm saying it is first and foremost the creators intent.

However for example if you show the finger to a bunch of people and then claimed afterwards that it was a sign of affection, everyone will know you're spouting bull.

So similarly if everyone who recognises Anelka's gesture recognises it as one that says 'I don't like Jews' then that's what it means as he'll be aware that's how the vast majority of people interpret it.

The problem I have is with critics jumping on it and saying the gesture is anti Semitic. They have neither made the gesture (with a particular intent) nor are its creator and so their definition to me seems pretty irrelevant.

Yeah that's what annoys me too. I've seen lots of uproar on this site due to what Anelka did from people who know jack sheet about the subject.

Even gestures like the finger are cultural. The ok sign for example is offensive in some cultures. There is no global database with definitions of gestures.

Anelka should only be heavily punished if the meaning of the gesture is blatant to all who recognise it, like the example of showing the middle finger.

TCW and as usual Boas . Haven's gone to the dogs

Further to that point la quenelle has no meaning in British culture.

But in the UK and America and other countries everyone interprets showing the middle finger in the same way.

Whereas la quenelle might be different. However if in France EVERYONE similarly interprets it to be anti Semitic, then I don't think there's any defence for Anelka's actions at all.

The fact that Sakho and Nasri have both made the same gesture suggests to me that it's not as obvious in France.

Perhaps I should have said had.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Irrelevant what other cultures/countries think of it IMO. The incident was in England, with the English FA dealing with it, therefore the meaning of the gesture in England is the only thing that should be considered IMO.

No because there is a clear meaning to that gesture in England.

Whereas la quenelle clearly has no meaning in the UK and only is used in France.

French can píss off

French FA banned Anelka anyway, they clearly want nothing to do with him so why stick their noses in?

Especially when that player comes from the country where the gesture originates.

Fluffing fireworks

What of a Brazilian footballer made the gesture (clearly as an insult)?

Do we define it by our cultural meanings or by his?

In the Suarez case his language was judged by our cultural meanings.

*if

Crap it's late
Anyway glad I got some of that off my chest.

Good chat, g7, and all you drunkards lurking around much better than the one I was reading earlier on the Utd board.

If there's a clear meaning to the gesture in both countries, then it's the country in which it's made. So Suarez was definitely in the wrong.

But in Anelka's case because it has no meaning in the UK, it's the French interpretation that should count.