I haven't said that all his failings were down to bates, I just think that some of the failings down to bates aren't going to vanish now we've got Warnock - bates is still there and still provides the same limitations, one of them being in ability to properly negotiate a contract.

There you go again, Marko!

Employing Grayson for 3 years and backing him was wrong, very wrong, as wrong as you can be!

you've just proven that you think the only failing of bates was that he hired Grayson in the first place and he's rectified that only failing...

If you assume it was actually a failing like you said, it's not the only failing on his part, and the rest are still there.

Again you're just going off on one trying to put ALL the blame at Grayson's feet. Again.

But you're just assuming that it was all down to Bates that we couldn't tie players down.

Was it ever an issue before Grayson arrived?

We were in League One and/or skint before Grayson arrived. Blackwell had all his best players sold from under him as well.

The inability to tie down players was not entirely down to Grayson. Too many "they were about to sign then it fell through" for that to be the case. You've not taken anything from the last 7 years, you're just obsessed with Simon Grayson.

The failings of ken bates are just that - HIS FAILINGS - and they are STILL HERE.

And I didn't say all down to bates, but I think it is mostly down to him. Either way, the only time you should ever fail to sign a player should be down to the manager or down to actually not having the money, or a reason the player has such as family, location, whatever. It should never, ever be down to a failing of the chairman because that is their JOB. To do the best they can to make sure the only reason a player would say no would be an arbitrary reason the club can do nothing about.

Grayson is a terrible man and a terrible football manager.

Whatever Ken Bates is or isn't does not change that.

But it means the problems we had before are STILL HERE and that Warnock isn't going to magically change that. I cannot believe you still have this obsession a full 3 months since Grayson was sacked.

Blackwell was still able to sign all his best players and get them to the play-off final.

You really think lots of good players were impressed by Grayson then as soon as the met Bates they didn't want to know?

So Grayson didn't create any problems?

Of course he did, but only the problems Grayson created have gone. The problems bates created are still here.

I think those players came in for contract talks, and then were scared off by the board of directors. Regardless of who the manager is, Leeds United has pull. Or it used to before bates destroyed it.

I have a challenge for you since you seem to think bates is entirely blameless. How do you blame Grayson for the sale of Max Gradel?

Well since you haven't responded I'll assume you don't have an answer for that one. Gradel's sale is entirely a failing of the board of directors. The same board of directors are still here. We can expect to see more of our best players go out the door.

"Robert is a special player at Leeds. He's been here a long time and he's seen a lot of his team mates depart. That's why I felt we had to offer him the top rate."

That's Neil Warnock getting involved in contracts and stating how important Snodgrass is to the club.

When did you ever hear anything like that from Grayson?

Remember when David O'Leary said Lucas should be set in stone and never allowed to leave the club?

If you want a player to stay you fight to keep them, and I never saw Grayson do that with any of the players who left.

Warnock can put together a balanced squad of quality who will be organised and motivated.

you just refuse to blame anybody but Grayson. Gradel's sale was a failing of the board. He was one of our best. The manner in which it happened was a failure by the board. The board said "our best players are going nowhere" repeatedly, over and over again. That implies they are doing all they can to keep hold of them. Then they sold one on the last day of the window. That is NOT A FAILING OF GRAYSON. That is a failing of the board.

Seriously, you're not helping yourself. You essentially think bates can do no wrong just like the rest of the apologists.

Are you blind?

I've just said in keeping Grayson for 3 years he was as wrong as you can be.

If you hire a hitman you're just as guilty but the hitman is certainly not innocent.

that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You genuinely think his only failing is by extension...

You're a bates apologist. That's it's. Why bother trying to debate if you're just a stupid, good for nothing bates apologist with an obsession with a manager who's not even here any more?

How can I be a Bates apologist when I think he's set the club back years?

Because the only reason you think he's set the club back years is by hiring Grayson, which is basically just a way of blaming everything on Grayson.

He's still setting the club back. He is responsible for much more failure than just hiring Grayson but you just use everything to pile it onto Grayson's door step. You're a bates apologist.

Grayson didn't hire himself.

He didn't hold Bates to ransom.

You're a Grayson apologist.

Bates doesn't hide that he's a ****.

You're like Leroy Rosenior who cried when he was sacked and is now saying how Huddersfield will win the play-offs with him.

*sigh* you're a ****ing idiot. Congratulations on having an IQ of less than 70.

I said assuming Grayson's hiring was a failing on bates part (I didn't argue that), it's not his ONLY failing. You're arguing that it's his only failing - that makes you a bates apologist with an irrational hatred for Grayson.

Can you count to potato?

I never once said it was his only failing.

But now Grayson has left and been replaced by a decent manager it's reasonable to expect an improvement.

It's not that reasonable, most of his failings are likely to limit Warnock as well.

Marko, just don't bother. Everyone has tried and failed to get some kind of sense out of Clive, but when every other word that comes out of his mouth is "Grayson", it's just not worth it.

Well done for trying though. x