I chose to differ in this point Tenez about players tanking. The matches you've mentioned, I've not seen them all, so I can't comment much on those. But I saw Tipsy-Djo and Nadal-verdasco matches till the end and I won't say they tanked it. I'll explain that all later, but since you have brought your points first, I would like to ask you the following:
1. Okay you think Djo or Nadal tanked i.e. lost the match on purpose or deliberately to their 'friends' and fellow countrymen. Can you give any reason why Djo or Nadal would tank?
2. What would they gain which is way more than that loss they would suffer by losing the match.
3.Did you see anything suspicious in both the matches that can perhaps suggest a tanking? Is this only because of sharing the nationality or being so called 'friends'.
Interesting article, probably the best I've seen you write so far, well detailed.
As for the conclusion I'm not convinced either way tbh.
I think Raiders has made some good points, in fact we have to consider that perhaps they were just outplayed by their tournament, surprises happen.
As for this week, I think Verdasco just played great tennis and deserved to win, don't think nadal tanked there.
Comment deleted by Article Creator
1. Okay you think Djo or Nadal tanked i.e. lost the match on purpose or deliberately to their 'friends' and fellow countrymen. Can you give any reason why Djo or Nadal would tank?
--------------------------
The best reason woudl be that they know the conds don't favour them and that if they struggle versus their compatriots they usually crush, they know they won't get past Federer and Delpo. Nadal very early on said this surface would give the advantage to the big hitters and less to him whose mouvement is key to his game.
Having said that I have just viewed the match from 4/1 in the 3rd set and I agree that Nadal seemed to be trying to close the match at 5/2. However there are a couple of games where he did not seem to try as hard. However all in all I agree that Nadal seemed to have tried and tanking is certainly not obvious despite his many UEs. From what I saw of Djoko Tsip, it's a clear case of tanking to me. Djoko seems furious teh whole match and has no intention to calm down and try. More than anyone he knew he woudl stand little chance on this surface versus Federer teh following day.
2. What would they gain which is way more than that loss they would suffer by losing the match.
------------------------------------
Again, if they coudl have won going all teh way, it may have been different. They also gain more rest, and training on a proper clay surface for Rome and the French. So if you balance what they can very difficultly gain with what tehy can easily gain, there is a good case for tanking.
3.Did you see anything suspicious in both the matches that can perhaps suggest a tanking? Is this only because of sharing the nationality or being so called 'friends'.
--------------------------------------------------
As said it was obvious to Djoko like it was obvious at the WTF when he gave the match away to Tsip but made a point of winning versus Berdych.
For Nadal not as obvious certainly but re-watch the 2 games at 5/3 and 5/4 in 3rd set. Nadal seems quite careless.
Another point I would like to add regarding #3 is that shoudl they choose to tank they are certainly not going to make it obvious. So expect all this focus look, hitting and running very hard but the UEs would be incredibly high for such famously consistant players.
@tenez
1.
The best reason woudl be that they know the conds don't favour them and that if they struggle versus their compatriots they usually crush, they know they won't get past Federer and Delpo. Nadal very early on said this surface would give the advantage to the big hitters and less to him whose mouvement is key to his game.
-------------------------------------------------------------
So its agreed that they would struggle on this surface and they would struggle against their fellow country men too. So how does this indicate that they had to tank to lose their matches? Quite contrary I would say that their losses are more obvious results because they struggled on this surface and didn't find suitable to their game. Had it been that they were very comfortable on this 'blue clay' and still lost with making too many daft errors, I can suspect a bit disinterest or 'tanking'. But that wasn't the case. If they struggled to play their game and lose, how does this indicate any tanking? This obviously points that their opponents adapted to the surface better, played better and defeated them.
2. If they are absolutely certain not to be able to win the tournament, does this not mean low confidence and focus in the match at hand. Low confidence or focus would anyways cause a player to lose a match. If Djo feared to lose to Fed in semis, why would he not first reach to semis and gain semis points and then fake an injury to give a walkover? I saw Djo rubbing his knees in the match, which could be a niggle but they can always take that excuse and walkout. Why would he tank and lose in QF when he is the defending champion. If just because a player think he is probably not going to win then we can say that every low ranked player who loses to top guys always 'tank'. Yes, I can say Ferrer tanked against Nadal in Barca. He probably knew he won't be able to beat Nadal on clay going by the history and hence he tanked.
Rest? Well this is also seen many times that players coming out of 'rest' are actually quite 'rusty'. So its not certain that this 'rest' is going to be a good thing for future matches.
Training on proper clay? Its just 2-3 more days of the tournament. They both already played MC which was proper clay if you like to say that. How much 2-3 days of practice will help them so much that they would be ready to tank their matches?
Djo is defending tons of points from here on till end of US open. Though he gained 600 in MC, why would he put pressure on himself by tanking in a QF and thereby losing 820 points in one tournament?
More so with Nadal. He too has the most points to defend after Djo till end of US open. Why would he tank and potentially risk losing his #2 spot to Fed. Just for rest?? Nadal won the whole clay season in 2010 and he did it without needing any rest obtained from tanking.
3. If there were no obvious signs, I have more reasons to believe that this wasn't a tanking. You have assumed that Tipsy just in no case can beat Djo and if he did, it will have to be tanking from Djo. I've seen Tipsy play and I saw how far he can push Fed on a hard court. And this was no Murray-kind of push, he was matching Fed shot per shot. Though he can't keep it for long. If he can do it to Fed, he can do it to Djo. It was on of those days. Player play make or break game, sometimes they make it.
Djo winners: UEs 20:21
Tipasrvic: 30:20
Tipsy went for his shots and he was hitting them flat and very penetrating. Any player who plays like that will have to have a chance to win and doesn't need tanking from the opponent. Tipsy was playing very fine margins, and it worked yesterday. This was no strings of errors from Djo, Tipsy blew him off the court.
If you want to point out a tanking, MC final looked more like it. I'm not saying it was, but that looked more of a suspect. Djo just didn't try his best, was making all errors, couldn't hold sever even once in 2nd set, was getting broken with silly errors and they were not marginal. Nadal didn't have to play great and yet won so convincingly. Was it tanking from Djo?? Now you can answer that.
The organisers of these tennis tournaments, and the governing body should try harder to listen to what the best players have to say.
These players bring in the crowds and they are sending a very loud and clear message to everybody this week.
The best players in the world of tennis no what they are doing, and I applaud them in giving their honest opinions.
If I was an organiser and heard that Nadal and Djokovic won't come to my tournament next year, then I would change something?
It's just not the top 2.
Most of the players have complained that the court is not upto standard, Tiaric has admitted that they made mistakes and the court is too slippery which Stakhovsky has tweeted that 'this is the worst ATP court.'
In that case we don't have much of a story other than that the court is a shambles and will be sorted out next time?
Hopefully, Tiriac is a clown.
OH Ten I love the thread!
I hope you were right, but am not sure with Nole. He may have tanked it in the second set, but it certainly was not a premeditated act .
I don't blame him. He's got his eyes set on RG, and why inflict any potential wear and tear on his body on that blue ice-rink....
And in some way, I'm glad we've got a non Djokovic Nadal weekend of tennis.
Surely, I would've loved Nole to have won it, but this court was just debilitating his movement and took the winning edge off his game .
Credit to Fed for surviving Raonic and adapting his game to this in his words "tough" surface.
It will be unbelievable if he overtook Nadal on Monday....now THAT was something nobody would have predicted this time last week.....
Rotla - You make some good points but I still think they have not tried as hard as they usually do. That to me is the bottom line.
Look at the Miami semis just a few weeks ago. Nadal apparently had knee problem but tried his best not to lose to Tsonga but then did not even try to sweat it out against Murray and Djoko cause he knew that unlike Tsonga they woudl not give him any easy points and he would have to struggle. We can say that Nadal tanked that semi versus Murray unless some still believe his knees were hurting.
I don't. But though I have my doubt about Nadal v Verdy, I have very little doubt that Nole did not try nearly as hard.
The day Nadal and Djoko will lose to Verdy and Tsip in a slam I might reconsider my views. For now I stick to it.
Yes NITB -Nole has his eye on Rome and the FO. I don't think winning on grass in the middle of the clay season is of any interest to him.
Surely, I would've loved Nole to have won it, but this court was just debilitating his movement and took the winning edge off his game .
---
Yeah that's what it was all about. Now send him packing to Rome and then Paris where I have more chance of winning then he has Fish stuck on the beach. Thats Djokovic on clay, and you can pick any colour you like
Now let a true great show you how to play anywhere, anytime Feds is da mann.
And the maestro is up and running with a quick break Didn't see much wrong with the court when he his hitting his rapiers all over the court
Crikey 4:1. Hold on to your hats, this is going to be over pretty quickly. No whinging, no crying, no toilet breaks, no limping about, no bouncing the ball for hours and hours, just gets on with playing tennis and has been like that since he was born
He is like watching a fine tuned Rolls Royce isn't he? No, I am not talking about Tipsarevic
I hope your chest doesn't hurt too much from all that laughing
lol nole
Feds breaks again and if it is possible, this second set will now disappear quicker than the first one?
*Ouch, got a chest pain lol
Love game on serve - 4:1 and this guy is at the twilight end of his career. Speechless ( well almost)
If you're trying to wind me up, you're not succeeding. I can't stand Tisparevic ...ok
Good. Neither can I. He looks so annoying. I can't believe he is a top 10.
hehe nole. You are a massive tennis fan and I have a lot of respect for you in that regard. You sit and watch games that I would not dream of doing to be honest. Fair plays
Feds struggled to hold but managed it 5:2 in the second
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A guide to tanking a tennis match
Page 1 of 3
posted on 12/5/12
I chose to differ in this point Tenez about players tanking. The matches you've mentioned, I've not seen them all, so I can't comment much on those. But I saw Tipsy-Djo and Nadal-verdasco matches till the end and I won't say they tanked it. I'll explain that all later, but since you have brought your points first, I would like to ask you the following:
1. Okay you think Djo or Nadal tanked i.e. lost the match on purpose or deliberately to their 'friends' and fellow countrymen. Can you give any reason why Djo or Nadal would tank?
2. What would they gain which is way more than that loss they would suffer by losing the match.
3.Did you see anything suspicious in both the matches that can perhaps suggest a tanking? Is this only because of sharing the nationality or being so called 'friends'.
posted on 12/5/12
Interesting article, probably the best I've seen you write so far, well detailed.
As for the conclusion I'm not convinced either way tbh.
I think Raiders has made some good points, in fact we have to consider that perhaps they were just outplayed by their tournament, surprises happen.
As for this week, I think Verdasco just played great tennis and deserved to win, don't think nadal tanked there.
posted on 12/5/12
Comment deleted by Article Creator
posted on 12/5/12
1. Okay you think Djo or Nadal tanked i.e. lost the match on purpose or deliberately to their 'friends' and fellow countrymen. Can you give any reason why Djo or Nadal would tank?
--------------------------
The best reason woudl be that they know the conds don't favour them and that if they struggle versus their compatriots they usually crush, they know they won't get past Federer and Delpo. Nadal very early on said this surface would give the advantage to the big hitters and less to him whose mouvement is key to his game.
Having said that I have just viewed the match from 4/1 in the 3rd set and I agree that Nadal seemed to be trying to close the match at 5/2. However there are a couple of games where he did not seem to try as hard. However all in all I agree that Nadal seemed to have tried and tanking is certainly not obvious despite his many UEs. From what I saw of Djoko Tsip, it's a clear case of tanking to me. Djoko seems furious teh whole match and has no intention to calm down and try. More than anyone he knew he woudl stand little chance on this surface versus Federer teh following day.
2. What would they gain which is way more than that loss they would suffer by losing the match.
------------------------------------
Again, if they coudl have won going all teh way, it may have been different. They also gain more rest, and training on a proper clay surface for Rome and the French. So if you balance what they can very difficultly gain with what tehy can easily gain, there is a good case for tanking.
3.Did you see anything suspicious in both the matches that can perhaps suggest a tanking? Is this only because of sharing the nationality or being so called 'friends'.
--------------------------------------------------
As said it was obvious to Djoko like it was obvious at the WTF when he gave the match away to Tsip but made a point of winning versus Berdych.
For Nadal not as obvious certainly but re-watch the 2 games at 5/3 and 5/4 in 3rd set. Nadal seems quite careless.
posted on 12/5/12
Another point I would like to add regarding #3 is that shoudl they choose to tank they are certainly not going to make it obvious. So expect all this focus look, hitting and running very hard but the UEs would be incredibly high for such famously consistant players.
posted on 12/5/12
@tenez
1.
The best reason woudl be that they know the conds don't favour them and that if they struggle versus their compatriots they usually crush, they know they won't get past Federer and Delpo. Nadal very early on said this surface would give the advantage to the big hitters and less to him whose mouvement is key to his game.
-------------------------------------------------------------
So its agreed that they would struggle on this surface and they would struggle against their fellow country men too. So how does this indicate that they had to tank to lose their matches? Quite contrary I would say that their losses are more obvious results because they struggled on this surface and didn't find suitable to their game. Had it been that they were very comfortable on this 'blue clay' and still lost with making too many daft errors, I can suspect a bit disinterest or 'tanking'. But that wasn't the case. If they struggled to play their game and lose, how does this indicate any tanking? This obviously points that their opponents adapted to the surface better, played better and defeated them.
2. If they are absolutely certain not to be able to win the tournament, does this not mean low confidence and focus in the match at hand. Low confidence or focus would anyways cause a player to lose a match. If Djo feared to lose to Fed in semis, why would he not first reach to semis and gain semis points and then fake an injury to give a walkover? I saw Djo rubbing his knees in the match, which could be a niggle but they can always take that excuse and walkout. Why would he tank and lose in QF when he is the defending champion. If just because a player think he is probably not going to win then we can say that every low ranked player who loses to top guys always 'tank'. Yes, I can say Ferrer tanked against Nadal in Barca. He probably knew he won't be able to beat Nadal on clay going by the history and hence he tanked.
Rest? Well this is also seen many times that players coming out of 'rest' are actually quite 'rusty'. So its not certain that this 'rest' is going to be a good thing for future matches.
Training on proper clay? Its just 2-3 more days of the tournament. They both already played MC which was proper clay if you like to say that. How much 2-3 days of practice will help them so much that they would be ready to tank their matches?
Djo is defending tons of points from here on till end of US open. Though he gained 600 in MC, why would he put pressure on himself by tanking in a QF and thereby losing 820 points in one tournament?
More so with Nadal. He too has the most points to defend after Djo till end of US open. Why would he tank and potentially risk losing his #2 spot to Fed. Just for rest?? Nadal won the whole clay season in 2010 and he did it without needing any rest obtained from tanking.
3. If there were no obvious signs, I have more reasons to believe that this wasn't a tanking. You have assumed that Tipsy just in no case can beat Djo and if he did, it will have to be tanking from Djo. I've seen Tipsy play and I saw how far he can push Fed on a hard court. And this was no Murray-kind of push, he was matching Fed shot per shot. Though he can't keep it for long. If he can do it to Fed, he can do it to Djo. It was on of those days. Player play make or break game, sometimes they make it.
Djo winners: UEs 20:21
Tipasrvic: 30:20
Tipsy went for his shots and he was hitting them flat and very penetrating. Any player who plays like that will have to have a chance to win and doesn't need tanking from the opponent. Tipsy was playing very fine margins, and it worked yesterday. This was no strings of errors from Djo, Tipsy blew him off the court.
If you want to point out a tanking, MC final looked more like it. I'm not saying it was, but that looked more of a suspect. Djo just didn't try his best, was making all errors, couldn't hold sever even once in 2nd set, was getting broken with silly errors and they were not marginal. Nadal didn't have to play great and yet won so convincingly. Was it tanking from Djo?? Now you can answer that.
posted on 12/5/12
The organisers of these tennis tournaments, and the governing body should try harder to listen to what the best players have to say.
These players bring in the crowds and they are sending a very loud and clear message to everybody this week.
The best players in the world of tennis no what they are doing, and I applaud them in giving their honest opinions.
If I was an organiser and heard that Nadal and Djokovic won't come to my tournament next year, then I would change something?
posted on 12/5/12
*know
posted on 12/5/12
It's just not the top 2.
Most of the players have complained that the court is not upto standard, Tiaric has admitted that they made mistakes and the court is too slippery which Stakhovsky has tweeted that 'this is the worst ATP court.'
posted on 12/5/12
In that case we don't have much of a story other than that the court is a shambles and will be sorted out next time?
posted on 12/5/12
Hopefully, Tiriac is a clown.
posted on 12/5/12
OH Ten I love the thread!
I hope you were right, but am not sure with Nole. He may have tanked it in the second set, but it certainly was not a premeditated act .
I don't blame him. He's got his eyes set on RG, and why inflict any potential wear and tear on his body on that blue ice-rink....
posted on 12/5/12
And in some way, I'm glad we've got a non Djokovic Nadal weekend of tennis.
Surely, I would've loved Nole to have won it, but this court was just debilitating his movement and took the winning edge off his game .
Credit to Fed for surviving Raonic and adapting his game to this in his words "tough" surface.
It will be unbelievable if he overtook Nadal on Monday....now THAT was something nobody would have predicted this time last week.....
posted on 12/5/12
Rotla - You make some good points but I still think they have not tried as hard as they usually do. That to me is the bottom line.
Look at the Miami semis just a few weeks ago. Nadal apparently had knee problem but tried his best not to lose to Tsonga but then did not even try to sweat it out against Murray and Djoko cause he knew that unlike Tsonga they woudl not give him any easy points and he would have to struggle. We can say that Nadal tanked that semi versus Murray unless some still believe his knees were hurting.
I don't. But though I have my doubt about Nadal v Verdy, I have very little doubt that Nole did not try nearly as hard.
The day Nadal and Djoko will lose to Verdy and Tsip in a slam I might reconsider my views. For now I stick to it.
posted on 12/5/12
Yes NITB -Nole has his eye on Rome and the FO. I don't think winning on grass in the middle of the clay season is of any interest to him.
posted on 12/5/12
Surely, I would've loved Nole to have won it, but this court was just debilitating his movement and took the winning edge off his game .
---
Yeah that's what it was all about. Now send him packing to Rome and then Paris where I have more chance of winning then he has Fish stuck on the beach. Thats Djokovic on clay, and you can pick any colour you like
Now let a true great show you how to play anywhere, anytime Feds is da mann.
posted on 12/5/12
And the maestro is up and running with a quick break Didn't see much wrong with the court when he his hitting his rapiers all over the court
posted on 12/5/12
Crikey 4:1. Hold on to your hats, this is going to be over pretty quickly. No whinging, no crying, no toilet breaks, no limping about, no bouncing the ball for hours and hours, just gets on with playing tennis and has been like that since he was born
posted on 12/5/12
He is like watching a fine tuned Rolls Royce isn't he? No, I am not talking about Tipsarevic
posted on 12/5/12
I hope your chest doesn't hurt too much from all that laughing
posted on 12/5/12
lol nole
Feds breaks again and if it is possible, this second set will now disappear quicker than the first one?
*Ouch, got a chest pain lol
posted on 12/5/12
Love game on serve - 4:1 and this guy is at the twilight end of his career. Speechless ( well almost)
posted on 12/5/12
If you're trying to wind me up, you're not succeeding. I can't stand Tisparevic ...ok
posted on 12/5/12
Good. Neither can I. He looks so annoying. I can't believe he is a top 10.
posted on 12/5/12
hehe nole. You are a massive tennis fan and I have a lot of respect for you in that regard. You sit and watch games that I would not dream of doing to be honest. Fair plays
Feds struggled to hold but managed it 5:2 in the second
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