Fair points well made, however you have to look at the reasons for these rule changes.
Colin Chapman, a brilliant designer, was obsessed with lightness, to the point that his cars regularly broke, killing or injuring the driver, so the minimum weight rule was brought in.
Cars were then seen sporting wings supported on high struts designed to bend at high speed and reduce drag, they used to break regularly killing or injuring the driver, so regulations were written outlaw them.
Then we had ground effect cars that could corner at fantastic speeds, unfortunately, if they hit a bump the ground effect was lost causing a crash that killed or injured the driver.
Are you beginning to see a pattern here? Most of the rule changes are put in place, not to actually slow the cars down, but to prevent them getting too fast whilst still keeping the racing close. In fact, even without the exaust blown diffuser, we are seeing faster lap times this year compared to last.
The engine regs have been altered to try to reduce costs, without them in place, Mercedes and Ferrari works cars would have appx 100bhp more than anything else on the grid as in this economic climate nobody else would have the money to chase the power.
The double diffuser was banned because it was felt that it was not possible to follow a car equipped with one close enough through a corner and then be able to overtake (due to the turbulence put out by the DD)
As for the tyres, they all have the same tyre, so if somebody is clever enough to make them work, then fair play to them
Finally, if you look at the current standings, we have 4 world champions in 1st to 4th place, and VMM and Redbull heading the constructors, which is what you would expect, so the tyres aren't mixing it up that much.
Really finally this time, if you have not seen it, then I urge you to watch this >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z8v18/Grand_Prix_The_Killer_Years/
A real eye opener.
I'll give that a watch.
For me, if teams are superior to others then so be it. Gaps of around 2 seconds cannot be recovered in just six months.
I'm not saying that we should make cars faster than what was seen in the 2004 and 2005 seasons. What I am saying is that those cars were fine, and as long as nobody pushed the safety boundaries too far, all would be well.
I just hate looking at this generation of machines.
"What I am saying is that those cars were fine, and as long as nobody pushed the safety boundaries too far, all would be well."
The trouble is, they have always pushed the limits, and will continue to do so, unless there are checks and balances put in place to rein them in. If you kept the regulations exactly the same for the next 5 years, the cars in 2017 would be considerably faster than todays, which proves that innovation and invention is alive and well
The rules in F1 are changed every year to suit the rich and powerful teams.
Colin Chapman's cars were death traps. Most drivers refused to drive them. But they never changed the rules to provide more safety for the driver or the spectators until they were forced to. They resisted safety on financial grounds.
If the rules remained consistent then the teams would be able to equalise their performance and challenge on an even playing field. Then we would see the best drivers competing with each other rather than having to watch crash dummies like Vettel and playboys like Button rely on the best designers to manipulate the rules in their favour.
If you kept the regulations exactly the
same for the next 5 years, the cars in 2017
would be considerably faster than todays, which
proves that innovation and invention is alive
and well
________________________________
No, I can't see it. Whenever a designer creates a piece of magic, it just gets cut off. The 2004 and 2005 cars looked pretty safe to me bar the few really hard crashes. With the safety measures of today, we could degenerate back to those machines.
If the rules remained consistent then the teams
would be able to equalise their performance and
challenge on an even playing field. Then we
would see the best drivers competing with each
other rather than having to watch crash
dummies like Vettel and playboys like Button
rely on the best designers to manipulate the
rules in their favour.
___________________________
Pretty much my view as well, although that was harsh on Vettel and Button. I know that it is controversial, but designers had been pushing the limits for years. That is what should happen in F1 as the pinnacle of motorsport. I used to be desperate to get into F1, but that desire has dwindled as every year goes by.
I'm actually happy with the rules we have now apart from the tyres.
I was pleased when the diffuser got banned because it gave a truly unfair advantage to the Brawns and The Red Bulls preventing racing from happening.
Vettel's domination last year was actually worse than the Schumacher years put together. It's especially hard to take when you know he isn't that great a driver.
What I want to see in terms of rule changes is actually the governance of the sport. The stewarding decisions have been shambolic at times and there is little or no consistency.
Sort out the rule book and tell every team, if you do A you will get punishment B, not make things up as we go along.
That's what irks me. If everyone is clear about the rules and the punishments, no one will complain when he gets done and the fans won't get cheated out because of idiotic decisions (i.e. Hamilton's demotion to the back of the grid last race or Button getting a penalty for overtaking off track when Vettel did the same, or Hamilton getting punished for moving 2ce whilst Schumacher didn't get any punishment for that in Monza etc)
That's what I want sorted out.
Fair points, although I think that your criticism of Vettel is very harsh considering the fact that he destroyed his team-mate (a very capable team-mate) with that car.
I just feel that the banning of new technology will just lead to F1 stagnating and then regressing.
Vettel beat Webber significantly because like Ferrar, Red Bull have a lead driver and he gets preferential treatment.
Diffuser's gone and Vettel doesn't look dominant anymore. Surprise, surprise
Correct, but he has won a race and is joint leader of the Championship.
If Red Bull have that preferential system, they're a damn sight better at hiding it than Ferrari. Massa hasn't all of a sudden become a bad driver.
I also find it hard to believe that the diffuser was worth around 2 seconds as that is what the likes of Williams and Sauber have made up.
He's leading the championship, fair play to him but is in a false position due to cck ups from the Mclaren team.
The diffuser gave him a massive advantage as he is no way in hell a second faster than Hamilton or Alonso
Red Bull Racing hate Mark Webber
Mark Webber was managed by Flavio.
Flavio ran Renault.
RBR wanted Renault engines and Flavio insisted that RBR sign Webber as part of the deal.
Look at the footage of the qualifying sessions of 2010 2011 – Vetttel gets pole and the entire Red Bull team rejoices. Webber gets pole and the entire team sulks and tries to figure out where they went wrong.
Vettel is as useless as Massa. Both drivers need to be told what to do. Listen to Vettel on the radio when he has a problem. “Rocky can you do something”
The only people that rate Vettel as a decent driver are people that hate Hamilton.
Where can I find this footage?
Aren't Red Bull essentially Jaguar, who Webber raced for, for 3 years.
You think that Massa and Vettel have their cars made to suit them rather than their team-mate. It would explain why Raikkonene just dropped off. To be honest, I rate Vettel, but I also rate Hamilton. I do not rate Button however.
Fair play I can not refer you to footage. I am just going by what I saw on the TV coverage of the qualifying 2010 2011.
My comments regarding Massa and Vettel were not related to their cars but to their childish reliance on having to be told what to do by their race engineers.
Neither driver knows how to handle or drive around a problem.
I wasn't challenging you over the footage. I was just enquiring about as to where I could find it.
Regarding Massa and Vettel. I think that is what their engineers are for. Granted, the Massa, Smedley relationship is like mentor talking to learner.
Vettel is young, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. For now.
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 2 days, 12 hours ago
He's leading the championship, fair play to him but is in a false position due to cck ups from the Mclaren team.
The diffuser gave him a massive advantage as he is no way in hell a second faster than Hamilton or Alonso
___________________________________________
The McLaren is the fastest car on the grid even with the problems they had there 2 drivers should be doing alot better then what there doing.
comment by (U13774)
"The McLaren is the fastest car on the grid"
--------------------------------------------
The McLaren is fast in qualifying but slower in race as a result of the engine using more fuel.
Perhaps you should refrain from commenting on F1 until you know more about the subjects you comment upon.
Thanks WTCBU, the troll did not even understand the context of my post.
Last season Vettel looked unstoppable, this season he's shown that the diffuser was responsible for his successes.
He won't remain in that false position for long though
An article in last weeks Mail on Sunday listed the points lost by Hamilton due to McLaren errors.
Spanish GP, May 13
Ran out of fuel in qualifying and demoted from pole to the back of the grid as a penalty.
Started 24th Finished 8th
Points lost 21
Bahrain GP, April 22
Two different wheel nut problems at separate pit stops.
Started 2nd Finished 8th
Points lost 21
Malaysian GP, March 25
Called in for first pit-stop at a bad time and delayed by other cars, then problems in successive stops.
Started 1st Finished 3rd
Points lost 10
Chinese GP, April 15
A change of gearbox in qualifying brought a fiveplace grid penalty.
Started 7th Finished 3rd
Points lost 10
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2146856/F1-McLaren-right-Monaco-risk-driving-Lewis-Hamilton-away.html
It's scary to see how many points he's lost due to his team. Same with Button.
Mclaren are letting their boys down.
On a separate note, I'm quite pleased to see how LH is responding to these set backs. Last year was tough but it will make him a better driver
Vettel>hamilton all day long. hamilton has had the best car before not done what Vettel did last season.
comment by (U13774)
Vettel>hamilton all day long. hamilton has had the best car before not done what Vettel did last season.
---------------------------------------
You are obviously very young and you should perhaps wait till you are more mature. You may then have a reasonable understanding of F1.
To be honest, the driver who wins the championship usually has the best package by a country mile. Cite Schumacher in 2004 (the dominance of the F2004 in race trim was beyond a joke), Alonso in 2006 (the R26 was an absolutely immense machine) and Vettel last season (the RB7 was untouchable in qualifying, yet weak in the race).
In 2007, at times McLaren had completely the best package, whereas for a smaller part Ferrari had tge better package. The difference with Hamilton and Vettel is that Hamilton had a team-mate in Alonso who had just come of the back of two world championships and was taking a shedload of points from him. Vettel had a team-mate in Webber who according to most has been sabotaged by Red Bull Racing, as a consequence, he has not been able to take a sufficient number of points from Vettel. In a way this echoed the MSC Barrichello situation.
Now, I don't think that Vettel is a bad driver at all, what I do think however is that he reshaped his driving around the exhaust blown diffuser, and now that it's gone. He's having to re-adjust his driving style again. He didn't have the EBD when he won his first race, so that shows that he does have talent. He just needs to re-acquaint himsrlf with the top exit exhausts and the loss of downforce that comea with the package.
The 2007 and 2008 McLaren did not have any advantages.
during those seasons they were neck and neck with Ferrari.
2009 had the advantage of the double diffuser and Button panicked.
2011 Red Bull had the blown diffuser.
I simply do not rate Vettel at all. I think he is supported by the "anyone but Hamilton" gang.
In 2007 and 2008 the gang were all Alonso supporters.
Then they switched to Button and then quickly switched to Vettel.
This season the "anyone but Hamilton" brigade are clueless about who they should support.
Are you a Hamilton fan?
I don't know what else Vettel can do to convince people that he does have talent. I'm not a Vettel fan but I can appreciate his achievements.
Sign in if you want to comment
Banning Innovative New Designs
Page 1 of 2
posted on 20/5/12
Fair points well made, however you have to look at the reasons for these rule changes.
Colin Chapman, a brilliant designer, was obsessed with lightness, to the point that his cars regularly broke, killing or injuring the driver, so the minimum weight rule was brought in.
Cars were then seen sporting wings supported on high struts designed to bend at high speed and reduce drag, they used to break regularly killing or injuring the driver, so regulations were written outlaw them.
Then we had ground effect cars that could corner at fantastic speeds, unfortunately, if they hit a bump the ground effect was lost causing a crash that killed or injured the driver.
Are you beginning to see a pattern here? Most of the rule changes are put in place, not to actually slow the cars down, but to prevent them getting too fast whilst still keeping the racing close. In fact, even without the exaust blown diffuser, we are seeing faster lap times this year compared to last.
The engine regs have been altered to try to reduce costs, without them in place, Mercedes and Ferrari works cars would have appx 100bhp more than anything else on the grid as in this economic climate nobody else would have the money to chase the power.
The double diffuser was banned because it was felt that it was not possible to follow a car equipped with one close enough through a corner and then be able to overtake (due to the turbulence put out by the DD)
As for the tyres, they all have the same tyre, so if somebody is clever enough to make them work, then fair play to them
Finally, if you look at the current standings, we have 4 world champions in 1st to 4th place, and VMM and Redbull heading the constructors, which is what you would expect, so the tyres aren't mixing it up that much.
Really finally this time, if you have not seen it, then I urge you to watch this >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z8v18/Grand_Prix_The_Killer_Years/
A real eye opener.
posted on 20/5/12
I'll give that a watch.
For me, if teams are superior to others then so be it. Gaps of around 2 seconds cannot be recovered in just six months.
I'm not saying that we should make cars faster than what was seen in the 2004 and 2005 seasons. What I am saying is that those cars were fine, and as long as nobody pushed the safety boundaries too far, all would be well.
I just hate looking at this generation of machines.
posted on 20/5/12
"What I am saying is that those cars were fine, and as long as nobody pushed the safety boundaries too far, all would be well."
The trouble is, they have always pushed the limits, and will continue to do so, unless there are checks and balances put in place to rein them in. If you kept the regulations exactly the same for the next 5 years, the cars in 2017 would be considerably faster than todays, which proves that innovation and invention is alive and well
posted on 20/5/12
The rules in F1 are changed every year to suit the rich and powerful teams.
Colin Chapman's cars were death traps. Most drivers refused to drive them. But they never changed the rules to provide more safety for the driver or the spectators until they were forced to. They resisted safety on financial grounds.
If the rules remained consistent then the teams would be able to equalise their performance and challenge on an even playing field. Then we would see the best drivers competing with each other rather than having to watch crash dummies like Vettel and playboys like Button rely on the best designers to manipulate the rules in their favour.
posted on 20/5/12
If you kept the regulations exactly the
same for the next 5 years, the cars in 2017
would be considerably faster than todays, which
proves that innovation and invention is alive
and well
________________________________
No, I can't see it. Whenever a designer creates a piece of magic, it just gets cut off. The 2004 and 2005 cars looked pretty safe to me bar the few really hard crashes. With the safety measures of today, we could degenerate back to those machines.
posted on 20/5/12
If the rules remained consistent then the teams
would be able to equalise their performance and
challenge on an even playing field. Then we
would see the best drivers competing with each
other rather than having to watch crash
dummies like Vettel and playboys like Button
rely on the best designers to manipulate the
rules in their favour.
___________________________
Pretty much my view as well, although that was harsh on Vettel and Button. I know that it is controversial, but designers had been pushing the limits for years. That is what should happen in F1 as the pinnacle of motorsport. I used to be desperate to get into F1, but that desire has dwindled as every year goes by.
posted on 21/5/12
I'm actually happy with the rules we have now apart from the tyres.
I was pleased when the diffuser got banned because it gave a truly unfair advantage to the Brawns and The Red Bulls preventing racing from happening.
Vettel's domination last year was actually worse than the Schumacher years put together. It's especially hard to take when you know he isn't that great a driver.
What I want to see in terms of rule changes is actually the governance of the sport. The stewarding decisions have been shambolic at times and there is little or no consistency.
Sort out the rule book and tell every team, if you do A you will get punishment B, not make things up as we go along.
That's what irks me. If everyone is clear about the rules and the punishments, no one will complain when he gets done and the fans won't get cheated out because of idiotic decisions (i.e. Hamilton's demotion to the back of the grid last race or Button getting a penalty for overtaking off track when Vettel did the same, or Hamilton getting punished for moving 2ce whilst Schumacher didn't get any punishment for that in Monza etc)
That's what I want sorted out.
posted on 21/5/12
Fair points, although I think that your criticism of Vettel is very harsh considering the fact that he destroyed his team-mate (a very capable team-mate) with that car.
I just feel that the banning of new technology will just lead to F1 stagnating and then regressing.
posted on 21/5/12
Vettel beat Webber significantly because like Ferrar, Red Bull have a lead driver and he gets preferential treatment.
Diffuser's gone and Vettel doesn't look dominant anymore. Surprise, surprise
posted on 21/5/12
Correct, but he has won a race and is joint leader of the Championship.
If Red Bull have that preferential system, they're a damn sight better at hiding it than Ferrari. Massa hasn't all of a sudden become a bad driver.
I also find it hard to believe that the diffuser was worth around 2 seconds as that is what the likes of Williams and Sauber have made up.
posted on 21/5/12
He's leading the championship, fair play to him but is in a false position due to cck ups from the Mclaren team.
The diffuser gave him a massive advantage as he is no way in hell a second faster than Hamilton or Alonso
posted on 21/5/12
Red Bull Racing hate Mark Webber
Mark Webber was managed by Flavio.
Flavio ran Renault.
RBR wanted Renault engines and Flavio insisted that RBR sign Webber as part of the deal.
Look at the footage of the qualifying sessions of 2010 2011 – Vetttel gets pole and the entire Red Bull team rejoices. Webber gets pole and the entire team sulks and tries to figure out where they went wrong.
Vettel is as useless as Massa. Both drivers need to be told what to do. Listen to Vettel on the radio when he has a problem. “Rocky can you do something”
The only people that rate Vettel as a decent driver are people that hate Hamilton.
posted on 21/5/12
Where can I find this footage?
Aren't Red Bull essentially Jaguar, who Webber raced for, for 3 years.
You think that Massa and Vettel have their cars made to suit them rather than their team-mate. It would explain why Raikkonene just dropped off. To be honest, I rate Vettel, but I also rate Hamilton. I do not rate Button however.
posted on 21/5/12
Fair play I can not refer you to footage. I am just going by what I saw on the TV coverage of the qualifying 2010 2011.
My comments regarding Massa and Vettel were not related to their cars but to their childish reliance on having to be told what to do by their race engineers.
Neither driver knows how to handle or drive around a problem.
posted on 21/5/12
I wasn't challenging you over the footage. I was just enquiring about as to where I could find it.
Regarding Massa and Vettel. I think that is what their engineers are for. Granted, the Massa, Smedley relationship is like mentor talking to learner.
Vettel is young, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. For now.
posted on 24/5/12
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 2 days, 12 hours ago
He's leading the championship, fair play to him but is in a false position due to cck ups from the Mclaren team.
The diffuser gave him a massive advantage as he is no way in hell a second faster than Hamilton or Alonso
___________________________________________
The McLaren is the fastest car on the grid even with the problems they had there 2 drivers should be doing alot better then what there doing.
posted on 24/5/12
comment by (U13774)
"The McLaren is the fastest car on the grid"
--------------------------------------------
The McLaren is fast in qualifying but slower in race as a result of the engine using more fuel.
Perhaps you should refrain from commenting on F1 until you know more about the subjects you comment upon.
posted on 24/5/12
Thanks WTCBU, the troll did not even understand the context of my post.
Last season Vettel looked unstoppable, this season he's shown that the diffuser was responsible for his successes.
He won't remain in that false position for long though
posted on 24/5/12
An article in last weeks Mail on Sunday listed the points lost by Hamilton due to McLaren errors.
Spanish GP, May 13
Ran out of fuel in qualifying and demoted from pole to the back of the grid as a penalty.
Started 24th Finished 8th
Points lost 21
Bahrain GP, April 22
Two different wheel nut problems at separate pit stops.
Started 2nd Finished 8th
Points lost 21
Malaysian GP, March 25
Called in for first pit-stop at a bad time and delayed by other cars, then problems in successive stops.
Started 1st Finished 3rd
Points lost 10
Chinese GP, April 15
A change of gearbox in qualifying brought a fiveplace grid penalty.
Started 7th Finished 3rd
Points lost 10
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2146856/F1-McLaren-right-Monaco-risk-driving-Lewis-Hamilton-away.html
posted on 24/5/12
It's scary to see how many points he's lost due to his team. Same with Button.
Mclaren are letting their boys down.
On a separate note, I'm quite pleased to see how LH is responding to these set backs. Last year was tough but it will make him a better driver
posted on 24/5/12
Vettel>hamilton all day long. hamilton has had the best car before not done what Vettel did last season.
posted on 24/5/12
comment by (U13774)
Vettel>hamilton all day long. hamilton has had the best car before not done what Vettel did last season.
---------------------------------------
You are obviously very young and you should perhaps wait till you are more mature. You may then have a reasonable understanding of F1.
posted on 24/5/12
To be honest, the driver who wins the championship usually has the best package by a country mile. Cite Schumacher in 2004 (the dominance of the F2004 in race trim was beyond a joke), Alonso in 2006 (the R26 was an absolutely immense machine) and Vettel last season (the RB7 was untouchable in qualifying, yet weak in the race).
In 2007, at times McLaren had completely the best package, whereas for a smaller part Ferrari had tge better package. The difference with Hamilton and Vettel is that Hamilton had a team-mate in Alonso who had just come of the back of two world championships and was taking a shedload of points from him. Vettel had a team-mate in Webber who according to most has been sabotaged by Red Bull Racing, as a consequence, he has not been able to take a sufficient number of points from Vettel. In a way this echoed the MSC Barrichello situation.
Now, I don't think that Vettel is a bad driver at all, what I do think however is that he reshaped his driving around the exhaust blown diffuser, and now that it's gone. He's having to re-adjust his driving style again. He didn't have the EBD when he won his first race, so that shows that he does have talent. He just needs to re-acquaint himsrlf with the top exit exhausts and the loss of downforce that comea with the package.
posted on 24/5/12
The 2007 and 2008 McLaren did not have any advantages.
during those seasons they were neck and neck with Ferrari.
2009 had the advantage of the double diffuser and Button panicked.
2011 Red Bull had the blown diffuser.
I simply do not rate Vettel at all. I think he is supported by the "anyone but Hamilton" gang.
In 2007 and 2008 the gang were all Alonso supporters.
Then they switched to Button and then quickly switched to Vettel.
This season the "anyone but Hamilton" brigade are clueless about who they should support.
posted on 24/5/12
Are you a Hamilton fan?
I don't know what else Vettel can do to convince people that he does have talent. I'm not a Vettel fan but I can appreciate his achievements.
Page 1 of 2