Chicken
I honestly don't think it was much to do with the tactics.
Often you could see and hear Sam doing his crust with the players.
A typical example would be when Green got the ball, and the defenders would run away from him.
Sam kept on at them to play it out (not least, I suspect, because Green, for all his quality, is hopeless when it comes to distribution.)
The players tended to hoof it when they didn't trust themselves to play it effectively, or when they were reluctant to take responsibility.
When is a long diagonal ball into the channel behind the full back a hoof, and when is it a cultured switch of play?
When is a long ball over the top to the big CF a hoof, and when is it 'switching early form back to front'?
Often, I suspect, it depends on which team is doing it.
Listen to a lot of the Blackpool fans, and our first goal came from a 'hoof', where theirs was a world class cross-field ball behind the CB's, even though ours was from a winger halfway inside their half, and theirs was from just by the halfway line.
There are loads of interviews with players over the season about how Sam would tell them to play the ball.
I think part of the reason the players were able to do it more consistently at the end of the season was that the pressure was off, when they knew that they would have to settle for a play-off place.
Sam got labelled 'long ball' years ago, and that in spite of the very good teams he put together at Bolton.
There is no way the media are going to let that go, regardless of how lazy or inaccurate it is.
whu606
I dont think you give the public, the west ham fans themselves, the pundits & whoever else enough credit.
Most fans, including myself, make up their own minds after watching a game, or a series of matches.
There are many times in a match where a "long ball" is a good option, whether it be a diagonal ball (like West Ham's 1st against Blackpool) or a Beckham-esq ball to an on-running full back BUT West Ham just seemed to hit it long, up & wide, sometimes into an area on the pitch with no obvious target, resulting in a 50/50 header off the pitch.
You cant honestly disregard all the in-play commentry, columnists, ex-pro's, fans & neutral's opinions, on the basis that "its because we're simply labelling a club managed by Big Sam".
Its also no coincidence that Bolton & Blackburn were also known for their more aerial approach either - its how he sets his teams up to play, along with a little bit of style here & there. The majority however, hasn't been, and is unlikely to be in the future, very pretty under Big Sam. Its just "his" way.
Most fans, including myself, make up their own minds after watching a game, or a series of matches.
===============
But that's precisely what you haven't done this season, yet still feel confident enough to comment.
That's what makes me laugh.
You haven't watched us, but feel you can comment on our style of play with confidence.
You have watched very few games involving Sam's teams, yet you know his 'way'.
You carry on if it makes you feel happy, but I prefer to have decent evidence before I make confident pronouncements about things.
whu606,
Give or take the odd 1 game or so, i've watched a similar amount as you. So why you wont accept i have a right to a view, i dont know.
Dont you also think its weird that my views also match that of most, if not all, non-West Ham fans, that of the West Ham fans i talk to, ex-West Ham players (Ian Wright), other media sources & the general footballing public?
So even if i had only seen 1 game, which i have already confirmed is not the case, alarm bells should be ringing that people, pundits & whoever who have seen more than you, also agree with what i am saying. Have you given that any thought?
Chicken
You have a right to a view.
You can't tell me which games you watched, and the ones you say you watched weren't evidence of the long-ball/hoof/call it what you will tactic, so as far as I can tell your view is not based on your own experience, but on listening to the views of others.
If that's how you form your opinions fair enough.
I prefer to see things for myself, where that is practical.
Historically at least fairly recently, Wimbledon were the 'Kings', closely followed by Big Sam's Bolton. That is of sides I have seen.
Not 100% sure whether Big Sam has changed his tactics at the Hammers, but Hoof-Ball can be a Plan-b if you have the right players.
Villa Tottenham and West Ham have on the whole been footballing sides, but each have had their moments as hoofers, as have others
Villa recently due to the fact that the defenders are not comfortable on the ball, WHU I guess as a result of their manager, and Tottenham although they have got rid of him, when Crouch played it was PLAN A
Its the British way
4-4-2 two wingers big guy and wee guy up front!
AndyGrays
This would be the Bolton of Okocha, Campo, Stelios, Djorkaeff, Speed and Anelka, would it?
Some hoofball group, them.
West Ham are the current hoof ball specialist
Previous holders of the award include Bolton Blackburn villa and arsenal
Spurs have always played the ball on the floor apart from when we had tallman up top. And those weren't hoofs they were long passes from cultured players like Huddlestone
And those weren't hoofs they were long passes from cultured players like Huddlestone.
This would be the Bolton of Okocha, Campo, Stelios, Djorkaeff, Speed and Anelka, would it?
He was there for 6-7 years I believe. No the above not a hoofing team, but there were long times when they were.
Wasn't Hutton one of the cultured players then?
Hutton was shiiiiit and a
This would be the Bolton of Okocha, Campo, Stelios, Djorkaeff, Speed and Anelka, would it?
==========================
All at the same time?
And for the record, i saw the following West Ham games: Cardiff H & A, Leeds H, Forest H & A, Pompey H & A, Blackpool H, Burnley H, Reading H & A, Millwall A, Brighton A, Leicester A, plus the play-off final.
Without counting them up, i think ive pretty much seen the same, if not more than you.
And out of all them games, the only ones i can think of that you didnt play hoof ball tactics was in the 6-0 win at Brighton & in the 4-2 loss against Reading.
Stay in denial, fella.
AndyGrays
Like many, you are letting the media do their thinking for them.
Allardyce joined in OCtober 1999.
By 2001-2 he had
Djorkaeff, Gardner and Pedersen
The next year he had added Campo and Okocha
Followed by Stelios
Then by Diouf and Speed in 2004-5
When he left in 2007 they had
Anelka, Campo, Diouf, Stelios, and Speed still playing.
Which were the long times they were hoofing it, then?
Chicken
The Millwall A game wasn't shown live anywhere.
Nor was the Blackpool H game.
Nor the Burnley H game.
The Brighton A game was 0-1, not 6-0.
You couldn't possibly have seen the Leicester game if you are saying that was hoofball; it was probably our best passing display of the season.
I don't believe that anyone but a diehard West Ham fan would have chosen to watch our satellite/streamed games, when there was plenty of other football available.
You've gone from 'i have watched a few West Ham games live on the Arab Channel, '
to claiming to have watched14.
I don't know why you would want to lie about what you watched, just to try to make yourself look 'right'.
That is very odd behaviour.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
And for the record, i saw the following West Ham games: Cardiff H & A, Leeds H, Forest H & A, Pompey H & A, Blackpool H, Burnley H, Reading H & A, Millwall A, Brighton A, Leicester A, plus the play-off final.
---
You saw all of those games? It's Only possible if you were standing behind Sam Allardyce.
Who can see anything from standing behind fat sam?
whu606,
Talk about contradict yourself, one sentence you say:
"The Millwall A game wasn't shown live anywhere".
Then you remember me saying:
"You've gone from 'i have watched a few West Ham games live on the Arab Channel"
How is that "odd behaviour"?
As for the 6-0, i meant at home - not away...BIG DEAL..talk about picky .
I recall that one particularly well because they had the Grand National on 1 screen & West Ham on the other.
You can try & oppose the facts all you like, say i'm lying or whatever, but it now seems that i have seen more of your club's games than you. Which, by your theory - not mine, puts me in a better position to judge. Plus, taking into the fact i'm a neutral, would again give me the upper hand to a more balanced & honest viewpoint.
As i say, i, your own fans, the media, in-live commentators, ex-pro's & pundits cant ALL be wrong, can they?
it now seems that i have seen more of your club's games than you.
================
No, it now seems that, clearly realising the weakness of your argument, you have decided to make stuff up.
THAT is what I described as odd behaviour.
Why would a Spurs fan have watched almost every West Ham game that was shown on satellite or streamed last year?
Your claims to have watched all those games (including some games not shown on any channel) make you look ridiculous.
West Ham did hoof it last season
The fans said it
The players did it
The media reported it
Even Blackpool players said it
Hoof there it is
Sign in if you want to comment
Hoof Ball Kings
Page 3 of 5
posted on 7/6/12
Chicken
I honestly don't think it was much to do with the tactics.
Often you could see and hear Sam doing his crust with the players.
A typical example would be when Green got the ball, and the defenders would run away from him.
Sam kept on at them to play it out (not least, I suspect, because Green, for all his quality, is hopeless when it comes to distribution.)
The players tended to hoof it when they didn't trust themselves to play it effectively, or when they were reluctant to take responsibility.
When is a long diagonal ball into the channel behind the full back a hoof, and when is it a cultured switch of play?
When is a long ball over the top to the big CF a hoof, and when is it 'switching early form back to front'?
Often, I suspect, it depends on which team is doing it.
Listen to a lot of the Blackpool fans, and our first goal came from a 'hoof', where theirs was a world class cross-field ball behind the CB's, even though ours was from a winger halfway inside their half, and theirs was from just by the halfway line.
There are loads of interviews with players over the season about how Sam would tell them to play the ball.
I think part of the reason the players were able to do it more consistently at the end of the season was that the pressure was off, when they knew that they would have to settle for a play-off place.
Sam got labelled 'long ball' years ago, and that in spite of the very good teams he put together at Bolton.
There is no way the media are going to let that go, regardless of how lazy or inaccurate it is.
posted on 7/6/12
whu606
I dont think you give the public, the west ham fans themselves, the pundits & whoever else enough credit.
Most fans, including myself, make up their own minds after watching a game, or a series of matches.
There are many times in a match where a "long ball" is a good option, whether it be a diagonal ball (like West Ham's 1st against Blackpool) or a Beckham-esq ball to an on-running full back BUT West Ham just seemed to hit it long, up & wide, sometimes into an area on the pitch with no obvious target, resulting in a 50/50 header off the pitch.
You cant honestly disregard all the in-play commentry, columnists, ex-pro's, fans & neutral's opinions, on the basis that "its because we're simply labelling a club managed by Big Sam".
Its also no coincidence that Bolton & Blackburn were also known for their more aerial approach either - its how he sets his teams up to play, along with a little bit of style here & there. The majority however, hasn't been, and is unlikely to be in the future, very pretty under Big Sam. Its just "his" way.
posted on 7/6/12
Most fans, including myself, make up their own minds after watching a game, or a series of matches.
===============
But that's precisely what you haven't done this season, yet still feel confident enough to comment.
That's what makes me laugh.
You haven't watched us, but feel you can comment on our style of play with confidence.
You have watched very few games involving Sam's teams, yet you know his 'way'.
You carry on if it makes you feel happy, but I prefer to have decent evidence before I make confident pronouncements about things.
posted on 7/6/12
whu606,
Give or take the odd 1 game or so, i've watched a similar amount as you. So why you wont accept i have a right to a view, i dont know.
Dont you also think its weird that my views also match that of most, if not all, non-West Ham fans, that of the West Ham fans i talk to, ex-West Ham players (Ian Wright), other media sources & the general footballing public?
So even if i had only seen 1 game, which i have already confirmed is not the case, alarm bells should be ringing that people, pundits & whoever who have seen more than you, also agree with what i am saying. Have you given that any thought?
posted on 7/6/12
Chicken
You have a right to a view.
You can't tell me which games you watched, and the ones you say you watched weren't evidence of the long-ball/hoof/call it what you will tactic, so as far as I can tell your view is not based on your own experience, but on listening to the views of others.
If that's how you form your opinions fair enough.
I prefer to see things for myself, where that is practical.
posted on 7/6/12
Historically at least fairly recently, Wimbledon were the 'Kings', closely followed by Big Sam's Bolton. That is of sides I have seen.
Not 100% sure whether Big Sam has changed his tactics at the Hammers, but Hoof-Ball can be a Plan-b if you have the right players.
Villa Tottenham and West Ham have on the whole been footballing sides, but each have had their moments as hoofers, as have others
Villa recently due to the fact that the defenders are not comfortable on the ball, WHU I guess as a result of their manager, and Tottenham although they have got rid of him, when Crouch played it was PLAN A
posted on 7/6/12
Its the British way
4-4-2 two wingers big guy and wee guy up front!
posted on 7/6/12
AndyGrays
This would be the Bolton of Okocha, Campo, Stelios, Djorkaeff, Speed and Anelka, would it?
Some hoofball group, them.
posted on 7/6/12
West Ham are the current hoof ball specialist
Previous holders of the award include Bolton Blackburn villa and arsenal
Spurs have always played the ball on the floor apart from when we had tallman up top. And those weren't hoofs they were long passes from cultured players like Huddlestone
posted on 7/6/12
And those weren't hoofs they were long passes from cultured players like Huddlestone.
posted on 7/6/12
This would be the Bolton of Okocha, Campo, Stelios, Djorkaeff, Speed and Anelka, would it?
He was there for 6-7 years I believe. No the above not a hoofing team, but there were long times when they were.
posted on 7/6/12
Andy
posted on 7/6/12
Wasn't Hutton one of the cultured players then?
posted on 7/6/12
Hutton was shiiiiit and a
posted on 7/6/12
He is not cultured
posted on 7/6/12
This would be the Bolton of Okocha, Campo, Stelios, Djorkaeff, Speed and Anelka, would it?
==========================
All at the same time?
And for the record, i saw the following West Ham games: Cardiff H & A, Leeds H, Forest H & A, Pompey H & A, Blackpool H, Burnley H, Reading H & A, Millwall A, Brighton A, Leicester A, plus the play-off final.
Without counting them up, i think ive pretty much seen the same, if not more than you.
And out of all them games, the only ones i can think of that you didnt play hoof ball tactics was in the 6-0 win at Brighton & in the 4-2 loss against Reading.
Stay in denial, fella.
posted on 7/6/12
AndyGrays
Like many, you are letting the media do their thinking for them.
Allardyce joined in OCtober 1999.
By 2001-2 he had
Djorkaeff, Gardner and Pedersen
The next year he had added Campo and Okocha
Followed by Stelios
Then by Diouf and Speed in 2004-5
When he left in 2007 they had
Anelka, Campo, Diouf, Stelios, and Speed still playing.
Which were the long times they were hoofing it, then?
posted on 7/6/12
Chicken
The Millwall A game wasn't shown live anywhere.
Nor was the Blackpool H game.
Nor the Burnley H game.
The Brighton A game was 0-1, not 6-0.
You couldn't possibly have seen the Leicester game if you are saying that was hoofball; it was probably our best passing display of the season.
I don't believe that anyone but a diehard West Ham fan would have chosen to watch our satellite/streamed games, when there was plenty of other football available.
You've gone from 'i have watched a few West Ham games live on the Arab Channel, '
to claiming to have watched14.
I don't know why you would want to lie about what you watched, just to try to make yourself look 'right'.
That is very odd behaviour.
posted on 7/6/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 8/6/12
And for the record, i saw the following West Ham games: Cardiff H & A, Leeds H, Forest H & A, Pompey H & A, Blackpool H, Burnley H, Reading H & A, Millwall A, Brighton A, Leicester A, plus the play-off final.
---
You saw all of those games? It's Only possible if you were standing behind Sam Allardyce.
posted on 8/6/12
Who can see anything from standing behind fat sam?
posted on 8/6/12
So, he was lying then..
posted on 8/6/12
whu606,
Talk about contradict yourself, one sentence you say:
"The Millwall A game wasn't shown live anywhere".
Then you remember me saying:
"You've gone from 'i have watched a few West Ham games live on the Arab Channel"
How is that "odd behaviour"?
As for the 6-0, i meant at home - not away...BIG DEAL..talk about picky .
I recall that one particularly well because they had the Grand National on 1 screen & West Ham on the other.
You can try & oppose the facts all you like, say i'm lying or whatever, but it now seems that i have seen more of your club's games than you. Which, by your theory - not mine, puts me in a better position to judge. Plus, taking into the fact i'm a neutral, would again give me the upper hand to a more balanced & honest viewpoint.
As i say, i, your own fans, the media, in-live commentators, ex-pro's & pundits cant ALL be wrong, can they?
posted on 8/6/12
it now seems that i have seen more of your club's games than you.
================
No, it now seems that, clearly realising the weakness of your argument, you have decided to make stuff up.
THAT is what I described as odd behaviour.
Why would a Spurs fan have watched almost every West Ham game that was shown on satellite or streamed last year?
Your claims to have watched all those games (including some games not shown on any channel) make you look ridiculous.
posted on 8/6/12
West Ham did hoof it last season
The fans said it
The players did it
The media reported it
Even Blackpool players said it
Hoof there it is
Page 3 of 5