As I understand it Coyle brought in his own GK coaches and Fred was virtually moved out of his role then. His departure coincides with his contract running out as well. Jussi and Fred have become very good friends and I think Jussi kicked up a bit of a stink when Coyle brought his own coaches in, which is why Fred stayed to see out his contract and then move along with Jussi. This is what I have heard from a few people, how true it is im not 100% but it kind of makes sense.
Didn't Big Sam once bring Dave Alred, (the Rugby kicking coach), down once to give Jussi (and then the rest of the squad at the time) a lesson in how to strike a ball properly?
Yes, yes he did. http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/2004/10/22/Lancashire+Archive/5813164.Sam_calls_in_the_union_man___just_for_kicks/
The problem of hoofing the ball forward from goal kicks is not a new one. It's been happening for years at Bolton.
It seems to me that the better teams have goal keepers who kick the ball to defenders who are still in a defensive position and then it's played forward from them. It works better because if you have decent passer of the ball in the team, you retain the ball. Unfortunately, we have several players who can't pass salt and pepper never mind a ball.
Let's hope that improves this season.
Agree SWIE, I thought we really under-utilised Cahill in this respect as he was very good on the ball, calm and controlled and has a decent pass on him. I think Ream is probably our best defensive ball player, but like you say we dont really have anyone for him to pass to who will continue the move in a similar fashion
Watch Michel Vorm closely. I've never seen a keeper with distribution like it. He can play the ball on to the chest of a striker 25 yards from goal. It was pretty embarrassing watching Jussi and Boggers on the same pitch as him twice last season.
I don't really think that it's a case f just hoofing it forwards, it's that there is no othe option.
Look at the likes of Chelsea. They scored 2 of their 5 goal against us at the Reebok from Terry and sideshow Bob playing as full backs when Cech had the ball. They stretched N'Gog and then har it Luiz who ran 50 yards towards our box without anyone being able to cover.
That sort of football has been built up over gets for Chelsea. Teams like Bolton know that if we press too hard, our whole team becomes stretched and their defence cn move the bill quickly to exploit acres of space beyond our midfield, and if we don't press enough, they will just keep the ball and we'll never get anywhere near it.
Bolton couldn't do that in the premiership, because we don't have either option. Our defenders are too nervous on the ball, meaning that if the opposition press is, we will always go backwards, which will force a hood upfield. The problem then is that our strikers are incapable of holding the ball up.
Not really our goalkeepers fault, it's the fact that there is no other choice than to hoof it upfield.
I'm not saying you don't make any valid points in your post, TRR, but there are keepers in the country who are capable of picking out a forward, which is something neither Jussi or Bogdan can do. So it is partly goalkeepers' fault.
When you watch our goal kicks do you not see what seems to be the majority to me, either go straight to a member of the oposition or goes off one of our players straight to one of the other teams players.
Surely it must be better to play the ball from the back and move it up the field in a more controlled fashion.
I've noticed it a LOT at Euro 2012. Keepers hardly ever lump it up the pitch. Nearly every time a keeper gets it, it's either passed or rolled out to a back player and things build from there. And I suppose these are the top GKs in Europe.
Let me just float an idea here, so bear with me......
Owen Coyle joins Bolton as manager and brings in his own team including a goal keeping coach. JJ refuses to work with the goal keeping coach and threatens to hand in a transfer request unless Barber is kept on. OC relents and hires Barber on a self-employed basis to coach JJ and Boggers (I don't know if he did coach Boggers, but maybe someone can clarify) and in order to keep JJ happy.
OC wants to play the ball more on the deck and build from the back, but this is in conflict with Barber's boot it long that JJ has used for many years and they resist or simply just ignore the instruction not to hoof.
OC is between a rock and a hard place in handling JJ and Barber and the new footballing style that he is trying to introduce. He sees an opportunity when JJ gets injured to get Boggers in to try and get him to play from the back and not boot it long to the opposition, so JJ never gets his place back.
Now, I don't know what goes on in training sessions and in tactics talks, but I can't understand why a team who's manager is renowned for playing pretty football resorted to lumping it long on so many occaisions last season. So much so, that I believe we figured 4th bottom in the entertaining football stats as provided by RB (?).
For me, either the goal keeper/goal keeper coach did not/would not listen to the instructions of the manager and coaches
OR if this is totally unlikely then
the lack of players coming back to collect balls from the defence were the main reason we were lumping it long so often and this was a direct result of having such players out injured.
If the second theory is more probable then OC has to shoulder the blame for not getting another midfielder prepped to fulfill that role and leaving our crap defenders their only out ball being back to the keeper. Even still, I witnessed so many long balls upfield when there was no pressure on Boggers which still makes me think someone wasn't listening to instructions and now that Barber has gone we will finally now see a change in our playing style.
Maybe Bolton can play 'Total Football'.
Fred Barber was fantastic, as was Jussi, yes his distribution wasnt his best asset, but this drivel of he couldnt pick a player is complete nonsense.
Jaakelainen, to davies, to (insert supporting player) = goal. Happened many a time.
Honestly some people really do nit pick! Maybe should sign beckham, put him in net, hes a great passer!
The reason why we went down is beacuase of our pathetic attempt to play some "nice" football. couldnt care less about the stats on entertaining football.
Coyle dropped Davies to favour a 4-4-2 style of play when we dont have the personnel, attributes or quality to do that.
How many times was the defence exposed.......its at least 38, coz thats how many games we played. Coyle doesnt kno how to defend, hasnt the first clue!
Jaakelainen, to davies, to (insert supporting player) = goal. Happened many a time.
---------------------------------------------------
But, we were supposed to be a footballing team under OC and SKD was a year older and that flow of play you talk about did not happen once last season. That was under the Big Sam days when both striker, goal keeper and (insert supporting player) were 3-4 years younger.
I dont accept that age is the concern here. As you need to be fitter/younger to play 4-4-2. So perhaps coyle was again wrong to recognise an ageing team and expecting them to play 4-4-2.
Our team should have been set-up every game to not concede, and nick a goal at set pieces. This is what the quality of our players should have lead to.
However we were woeful defending set pieces, woeful scoring from them, and woeful in open play
Our team should have been set-up every game to not concede, and nick a goal at set pieces. This is what the quality of our players should have lead to.
--------------------------------------------------------------
But we weren't set up to play like that the season before and we almost got a top 10 finish!
I would agree with your point if we hadn't had that season in between where we received all the plaudits for our football. After changing a side from long ball to a footballing side any normal person wouldn't change it back to long ball again would they? Why?
You can't pass the ball short if there isn't anyone there, nor can you expect to hit it on the chest of an attacker, 50 yards away if you are under pressure.
It's as simple as that.
Goalkeepers aren't always under pressure and there is usually a defender there.
So it isn't as simple as that.
Goalkeepers aren't always under pressure and there is usually a defender there.
------
Not for Bolton there ain't.
Teams press us, all the way back to our keeper because they know that if our keeper goes long, their defenders will, 9 times out of 10, beat N'Gog and they'll get the ball back.
Or our goalkeeper to play the ball short, our full backs must be up on the halfway line and our centre backs should be very, very wide. That way, Bogdan essentially becomes a sweeper and we have me options for a pass.
I didn't see that once for us last season, but I saw nearly every other team do it.
Football is a simple game.
Cannot believe what I've read here. We'd have been out of the Prem years ago without Jussi and would have gone down before christmas last season without Bogdan. A lot of credit has to go to Fred Barber for that. Picking on their shortcomings like this is absolutely unbelievable.
Madnot: Do you not think it is a point of discussion as to why, when Bolton Wanderers under Owen Coyle is supposed to be a footballing side, did they play long ball so much last season.
I'm not taking anything away from JJ or Barber I am just posing some questions as to why we all saw so much long ball last season. I think the lads above have pretty much answered it, but it is intriguing isn't it?
Was Owen Coyle responsible for giving instructions to kick it long or were the players doing it off their own backs or under direction from another coach? Hey, I'm just asking questions.
Fair enough JAH, but saying you're glad he's moved on suggests your mind is made up.
Coyle falls short sometimes, but even he wouldn't be so hopeless as to let his goalkeeping coach determine how the ball is played out from the keeper.
You'll regret being glad he's gone- we've had two of the best goalies in the Prem down to him. Pray to God that Coyle's replacement isn't as hopeless as the idiots he brought with him from Burnley to coach our our defence.
Just on another point - after reading the guff about us replacing Barber with the creaters of Brian Jensen - (in another thread, ahem Bricks, ahem) - may want to know that Jensen's first goalkeeping coach in England was...Fred Barber.
Also, also, I've done goalkeeping coaching and as much as distribution is taught it's more a technique thing rather than a you must do this.
Had a chat with one of my coaching teachers and Barber is regarded as one of the best about.
Cannot believe what I've read here. We'd have been out of the Prem years ago without Jussi and would have gone down before christmas last season without Bogdan. A lot of credit has to go to Fred Barber for that. Picking on their shortcomings like this is absolutely unbelievable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not agree more
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Fred Barber....again
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posted on 13/6/12
As I understand it Coyle brought in his own GK coaches and Fred was virtually moved out of his role then. His departure coincides with his contract running out as well. Jussi and Fred have become very good friends and I think Jussi kicked up a bit of a stink when Coyle brought his own coaches in, which is why Fred stayed to see out his contract and then move along with Jussi. This is what I have heard from a few people, how true it is im not 100% but it kind of makes sense.
posted on 13/6/12
Didn't Big Sam once bring Dave Alred, (the Rugby kicking coach), down once to give Jussi (and then the rest of the squad at the time) a lesson in how to strike a ball properly?
Yes, yes he did. http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/2004/10/22/Lancashire+Archive/5813164.Sam_calls_in_the_union_man___just_for_kicks/
posted on 13/6/12
The problem of hoofing the ball forward from goal kicks is not a new one. It's been happening for years at Bolton.
It seems to me that the better teams have goal keepers who kick the ball to defenders who are still in a defensive position and then it's played forward from them. It works better because if you have decent passer of the ball in the team, you retain the ball. Unfortunately, we have several players who can't pass salt and pepper never mind a ball.
Let's hope that improves this season.
posted on 13/6/12
Agree SWIE, I thought we really under-utilised Cahill in this respect as he was very good on the ball, calm and controlled and has a decent pass on him. I think Ream is probably our best defensive ball player, but like you say we dont really have anyone for him to pass to who will continue the move in a similar fashion
posted on 13/6/12
Watch Michel Vorm closely. I've never seen a keeper with distribution like it. He can play the ball on to the chest of a striker 25 yards from goal. It was pretty embarrassing watching Jussi and Boggers on the same pitch as him twice last season.
posted on 13/6/12
I don't really think that it's a case f just hoofing it forwards, it's that there is no othe option.
Look at the likes of Chelsea. They scored 2 of their 5 goal against us at the Reebok from Terry and sideshow Bob playing as full backs when Cech had the ball. They stretched N'Gog and then har it Luiz who ran 50 yards towards our box without anyone being able to cover.
That sort of football has been built up over gets for Chelsea. Teams like Bolton know that if we press too hard, our whole team becomes stretched and their defence cn move the bill quickly to exploit acres of space beyond our midfield, and if we don't press enough, they will just keep the ball and we'll never get anywhere near it.
Bolton couldn't do that in the premiership, because we don't have either option. Our defenders are too nervous on the ball, meaning that if the opposition press is, we will always go backwards, which will force a hood upfield. The problem then is that our strikers are incapable of holding the ball up.
Not really our goalkeepers fault, it's the fact that there is no other choice than to hoof it upfield.
posted on 13/6/12
I'm not saying you don't make any valid points in your post, TRR, but there are keepers in the country who are capable of picking out a forward, which is something neither Jussi or Bogdan can do. So it is partly goalkeepers' fault.
posted on 14/6/12
When you watch our goal kicks do you not see what seems to be the majority to me, either go straight to a member of the oposition or goes off one of our players straight to one of the other teams players.
Surely it must be better to play the ball from the back and move it up the field in a more controlled fashion.
posted on 14/6/12
I've noticed it a LOT at Euro 2012. Keepers hardly ever lump it up the pitch. Nearly every time a keeper gets it, it's either passed or rolled out to a back player and things build from there. And I suppose these are the top GKs in Europe.
posted on 14/6/12
Let me just float an idea here, so bear with me......
Owen Coyle joins Bolton as manager and brings in his own team including a goal keeping coach. JJ refuses to work with the goal keeping coach and threatens to hand in a transfer request unless Barber is kept on. OC relents and hires Barber on a self-employed basis to coach JJ and Boggers (I don't know if he did coach Boggers, but maybe someone can clarify) and in order to keep JJ happy.
OC wants to play the ball more on the deck and build from the back, but this is in conflict with Barber's boot it long that JJ has used for many years and they resist or simply just ignore the instruction not to hoof.
OC is between a rock and a hard place in handling JJ and Barber and the new footballing style that he is trying to introduce. He sees an opportunity when JJ gets injured to get Boggers in to try and get him to play from the back and not boot it long to the opposition, so JJ never gets his place back.
Now, I don't know what goes on in training sessions and in tactics talks, but I can't understand why a team who's manager is renowned for playing pretty football resorted to lumping it long on so many occaisions last season. So much so, that I believe we figured 4th bottom in the entertaining football stats as provided by RB (?).
For me, either the goal keeper/goal keeper coach did not/would not listen to the instructions of the manager and coaches
OR if this is totally unlikely then
the lack of players coming back to collect balls from the defence were the main reason we were lumping it long so often and this was a direct result of having such players out injured.
If the second theory is more probable then OC has to shoulder the blame for not getting another midfielder prepped to fulfill that role and leaving our crap defenders their only out ball being back to the keeper. Even still, I witnessed so many long balls upfield when there was no pressure on Boggers which still makes me think someone wasn't listening to instructions and now that Barber has gone we will finally now see a change in our playing style.
Maybe Bolton can play 'Total Football'.
posted on 14/6/12
Fred Barber was fantastic, as was Jussi, yes his distribution wasnt his best asset, but this drivel of he couldnt pick a player is complete nonsense.
Jaakelainen, to davies, to (insert supporting player) = goal. Happened many a time.
Honestly some people really do nit pick! Maybe should sign beckham, put him in net, hes a great passer!
posted on 14/6/12
The reason why we went down is beacuase of our pathetic attempt to play some "nice" football. couldnt care less about the stats on entertaining football.
Coyle dropped Davies to favour a 4-4-2 style of play when we dont have the personnel, attributes or quality to do that.
How many times was the defence exposed.......its at least 38, coz thats how many games we played. Coyle doesnt kno how to defend, hasnt the first clue!
posted on 14/6/12
Jaakelainen, to davies, to (insert supporting player) = goal. Happened many a time.
---------------------------------------------------
But, we were supposed to be a footballing team under OC and SKD was a year older and that flow of play you talk about did not happen once last season. That was under the Big Sam days when both striker, goal keeper and (insert supporting player) were 3-4 years younger.
posted on 14/6/12
I dont accept that age is the concern here. As you need to be fitter/younger to play 4-4-2. So perhaps coyle was again wrong to recognise an ageing team and expecting them to play 4-4-2.
Our team should have been set-up every game to not concede, and nick a goal at set pieces. This is what the quality of our players should have lead to.
However we were woeful defending set pieces, woeful scoring from them, and woeful in open play
posted on 14/6/12
Our team should have been set-up every game to not concede, and nick a goal at set pieces. This is what the quality of our players should have lead to.
--------------------------------------------------------------
But we weren't set up to play like that the season before and we almost got a top 10 finish!
I would agree with your point if we hadn't had that season in between where we received all the plaudits for our football. After changing a side from long ball to a footballing side any normal person wouldn't change it back to long ball again would they? Why?
posted on 14/6/12
You can't pass the ball short if there isn't anyone there, nor can you expect to hit it on the chest of an attacker, 50 yards away if you are under pressure.
It's as simple as that.
posted on 14/6/12
Goalkeepers aren't always under pressure and there is usually a defender there.
So it isn't as simple as that.
posted on 14/6/12
Goalkeepers aren't always under pressure and there is usually a defender there.
------
Not for Bolton there ain't.
Teams press us, all the way back to our keeper because they know that if our keeper goes long, their defenders will, 9 times out of 10, beat N'Gog and they'll get the ball back.
Or our goalkeeper to play the ball short, our full backs must be up on the halfway line and our centre backs should be very, very wide. That way, Bogdan essentially becomes a sweeper and we have me options for a pass.
I didn't see that once for us last season, but I saw nearly every other team do it.
Football is a simple game.
posted on 14/6/12
For*
posted on 15/6/12
Cannot believe what I've read here. We'd have been out of the Prem years ago without Jussi and would have gone down before christmas last season without Bogdan. A lot of credit has to go to Fred Barber for that. Picking on their shortcomings like this is absolutely unbelievable.
posted on 15/6/12
Madnot: Do you not think it is a point of discussion as to why, when Bolton Wanderers under Owen Coyle is supposed to be a footballing side, did they play long ball so much last season.
I'm not taking anything away from JJ or Barber I am just posing some questions as to why we all saw so much long ball last season. I think the lads above have pretty much answered it, but it is intriguing isn't it?
Was Owen Coyle responsible for giving instructions to kick it long or were the players doing it off their own backs or under direction from another coach? Hey, I'm just asking questions.
posted on 15/6/12
Fair enough JAH, but saying you're glad he's moved on suggests your mind is made up.
Coyle falls short sometimes, but even he wouldn't be so hopeless as to let his goalkeeping coach determine how the ball is played out from the keeper.
You'll regret being glad he's gone- we've had two of the best goalies in the Prem down to him. Pray to God that Coyle's replacement isn't as hopeless as the idiots he brought with him from Burnley to coach our our defence.
posted on 15/6/12
Just on another point - after reading the guff about us replacing Barber with the creaters of Brian Jensen - (in another thread, ahem Bricks, ahem) - may want to know that Jensen's first goalkeeping coach in England was...Fred Barber.
posted on 15/6/12
Also, also, I've done goalkeeping coaching and as much as distribution is taught it's more a technique thing rather than a you must do this.
Had a chat with one of my coaching teachers and Barber is regarded as one of the best about.
posted on 15/6/12
Cannot believe what I've read here. We'd have been out of the Prem years ago without Jussi and would have gone down before christmas last season without Bogdan. A lot of credit has to go to Fred Barber for that. Picking on their shortcomings like this is absolutely unbelievable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not agree more
Page 1 of 1