tafka - do clubs consult there fans in other, equally important decisions such as prices for season tickets, signings etc?
or was this just a special case as it was Rangers?
comment by Tafka Gaffer (U6804)
posted 41 minutes ago
I heard him and suspected he was boolshitting.
---------
Pointy thats actually what worried me - I thought the guy sounded genuine.
Not some mad ranting maniac and while a little unsure of some points on the face of it had little of no reason to do this.
==
so taking this in to account can we rule out him being a Celtic fan?
The Rangers lads in my work have been talking about this for the past few days. No idea where they got it from.
However as mentioned above it doesn't look like it is enforceable so does it matter?
I don't think another SPL club would have been treated as harshly as Rangers. The clubs themselves did not want to put Rangers in the bottom tier. However the sheer hatred from fans won over and we are where we are. That may sound paranoid etc, but radio phone ins/debate sites have shown us the sheer hatred. When you get fans of other clubs who won't talk about anything but rangers through seething gritted teeth it's pretty plain to see. Would these same fans be as raging and baying for blood if say St Johnstone or Kilmarnock had been in the position Rangers were in? Not saying we didn't deserve punishment but did Airdrie have to start from the bottom? Was there anyone baying for blood when Motherwell went into admin? Maybe not identical scenarios but people wanted to floor Rangers from the get go I don't remember that happening with these teams.
Still no point in doing this though. It will only bite us in the erchie in the long run.
so taking this in to account can we rule out him being a Celtic fan?
---------
Now now...
----------------
or was this just a special case as it was Rangers?
-----------
I would think that is fans decided to stop going to games over the signing of a player - the Marlon Harewood one springs to mind - then yes I think they would listen.
In this case if you as a chairman are being told by your supporters groups that they will not renew season books - the main income for the club equating to around 50-60% in some cases - what are they supposed to do TRFC?
Agree Wire the cup format makes it highly unlikely to ever get off the ground. A workable solution in a league sense would be to have season ticket holders buy a debenture that granted them the right to purchase a season ticket at a nominal sum.
Offcourse any single match tickets sold would be subject to any split that came to pass but would reduce the benifit to such a point as to make it not worth the bother.
Tafka
i appreciate that but you have to wonder what kind of fans would rather see thier own club go into admin just to see rangers out the league. im thinking Killie, Motherwell, ICT specifically as these teams are/ were reported as being on the brink with us in the league.
that to me is a decision based on something other than sporting integrity. that decisions by many was driven by hatred
surely you can't deny that
db
Not going to get into stuff covered a million times on here and elsewhere but Motherwell and Airdrie really have no relevence to what happened to Rangers, Gretna is about the closest comparison there is.
Motherwell were never liquidated and had Rangers been able to continue in administration they would have remained in the SPL this season just as Motherwell did and Dundee if memeory serves me right did in the SFL. Airdrionians ceased to exist and Airdrie United is infact Clydebank with its history SFA registration etc etc etc.
So.... The Rangers board don't want to give money to an SPL team because?
The think the SPL and the SFA are bad, and made The Rangers go to Division three for doing nothing wrong.
Give me strength.
i appreciate that but you have to wonder what kind of fans would rather see thier own club go into admin just to see rangers out the league. im thinking Killie, Motherwell, ICT specifically as these teams are/ were reported as being on the brink with us in the league.
---------
I do appreciate that, but if you can leave cash aside for one moment and lets say its Aberdeen or Hearts in this situation and your club is to vote....
Same rule set - they have been placed in administration and are to be liquidated, meaning the 'ticket' for their place is available in the SPL and the only means of acceptance is the other SPL clubs voting to allow them back in.
How would Rangers vote? Would you be happy of your club voting to save a newco Aberdeen for example and giving them the chance to come back and take your place higher up the league?
these were the same fans who demanded their clubs vote no to newco in the SPL for sporting integrity reasons but didn't utter a peep when the SPL/ SFA were attempting to shoe horn Rangers in to the SFL1 to mitigate the financial hit on SPL clubs.
Also these fans who cried from the rooftops were told by their chairmen that in return for the club listening to their views they must back the club in return. so far that has been a pretty spectacular flop, sell out saturday for example.
_________________________________________
Absolute pash (apart from the sell out Saturday bit, which didn't sell out).
I think you'll find that the fans of the other SPL clubs did in fact make their voices heard about the moves to shoehorn Rangers into the SFL1. They were told in no way would the fans be happy with that as it was either a case of keep them in the SPL or, as everyone wanted including Rangers fans, let them start again in SFL3.
As a matter of interest, the only SPL club that I am aware of making a statement on this was Dundee United, who stated that the SFL clubs should be allowed to make their decision without any pressure or influence from the SPL and should make the decision on their terms and only their terms.
I think that THE rangers should grasp the oppotunity of fiddling Motherwell out of a fair share of the gate money with both hands as they will not get the chance again this season in this cup.
The team that used to play in govan did much the same over a longer period of time and on a much larger scale.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
i appreciate that but you have to wonder what kind of fans would rather see thier own club go into admin just to see rangers out the league. im thinking Killie, Motherwell, ICT specifically as these teams are/ were reported as being on the brink with us in the league.
that to me is a decision based on something other than sporting integrity. that decisions by many was driven by hatred
________________________________________
This is the problem right here.
You seem to think that everyone should be driven by self interest rather than fairness.
If Dundee United were to go into liquidation (note that it's liquidation, not administration) then we should be put in the third division. No questions asked, no argument put up. It's the right thing to do.
If it was to happen then it would be nobodies fault but our own for making a business model that is unworkable.
If the question was raised should Dundee United be demoted to the SFL3 then I would advocate that they should, even though it's my club, as it's the right thing to do.
Motherwell were never liquidated and had Rangers been able to continue in administration they would have remained in the SPL this season just as Motherwell did and Dundee if memeory serves me right did in the SFL. Airdrionians ceased to exist and Airdrie United is infact Clydebank with its history SFA registration etc etc etc.
----------------------------------------------------
I did say I know they're not identical. What I'm getting at is the attitude towards these teams.
When Motherwell went into Admin, no-one was getting on their high horse and ripping them to shreds. As soon as Rangers showed a hint of it the abuse was coming from all angles. A lot of it was deserved of course, but you can't deny that fans hatred of Rangers is a major reason for why we are now in the bottom league.
Would fans have objected so vociferously had the vote been to keep St Johnstone in the SPL? It would barely have registered with the fans of other clubs.
It can't be denied that the fans of other teams saw an oppurtunity to bring Rangers down and have revelled in it.
It also can't be denied that the SPL chairmen tried to do a deal to get Rangers in Div1 which was hugely disrespectful to the SFL and may well still come back to haunt them.
If Dundee United were to go into liquidation (note that it's liquidation, not administration) then we should be put in the third division. No questions asked, no argument put up. It's the right thing to do.
------------------------------------------
You say that now that the precedent has been well and truly set.
However had this happened to Dundee Utd and not Rangers I really don't believe there would have been the same outcry to see them dropped to the third division.
The scenario of kicking Rangers out the league gained momentum due to the fans of other clubs pressurising their chairmen. Do you really think the fans of other clubs would have been baying for united's blood in the same manner? I know I wouldn't have.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Motherwell were not cheating..............simple.
However had this happened to Dundee Utd and not Rangers I really don't believe there would have been the same outcry to see them dropped to the third division.
___________________________________________
Obviously we're talking theoretically since this hasn't happened, but I stand by what I said. If the Rangers situation hadn't happened and it had happened to United, I would have agreed with the demotion to the third as it was the right thing to do.
Just as many (the majority?) or Rangers fans agreed that it was the right thing to do.
You are right though that there wouldn't have been the same clamour. For me this says more about the state of our game and how it would appear that only Rangers and Celtic generate interest than anything else.
We could also flip this around and say that if it was anyone other than Rangers or Celtic would there have been as much effort to keep them in the top flight? Of course not. They'd have been told to go to the third and nobody would have batted an eyelid, certainly not anyone from Rangers.
The idea is unworkable and impossible.
There are specific rules against that kind of thing, it goes against the spirit of the game, and it could see Rangers get into trouble with the authorities.
Hang on...
Absolute pash (apart from the sell out Saturday bit, which didn't sell out).
I think you'll find that the fans of the other SPL clubs did in fact make their voices heard about the moves to shoehorn Rangers into the SFL1. They were told in no way would the fans be happy with that as it was either a case of keep them in the SPL or, as everyone wanted including Rangers fans, let them start again in SFL3.
As a matter of interest, the only SPL club that I am aware of making a statement on this was Dundee United, who stated that the SFL clubs should be allowed to make their decision without any pressure or influence from the SPL and should make the decision on their terms and only their terms.
===
ivan
there were plenty of SFL clubs coming out making statements that the plans to shoe-horn rangers into SFL1 were nothing more than bully boy tactics with their doomsday scenarios with false predictions of lost revenue, even threats that the SFL would not be paid its £2m parachute payment.
Both the Raith Rovers and East Stirlingshire chairmen released statements to that effect.
where were the champions of sporting integrity when all that was happening? you say your own club released a statement, that being the case well done to Utd but i have to say the view from your club was well and truly in the minority!
The fan reaction was in my opionion the same backlash I think you would have in any league towards a huge club.
The other club boards succumbed to fan pressuse thinking a plan B could be implemented in reducing the damage only to have the SFL scupper such.
The games administrators did everything they could to save Rangers but in the absence of a public bailout the old "too big to fail" cliche infact worked in the reverse Rangers were too big to save.
The sums involved meant no one was willing to stump up the cash needed to avoid liquidation. This point is rarely talked about if all those who came forward claiming to only have Rangers at heart had combined their resources rather than openely rubbishing each others bids to get control as cheaply as possible we would not be having this converstion
Could it be anything to do with how the club got itself into administration, lavishing contracts and purchases on players that were far outwith the reach of our game?
The EBT scandal; the taxation issues etc?
===
Ginger
that would be all well and good if the cases in questionhad been proven.
many fans seem to have adopted a hostile attitude and see rangers have cheated yet there has yet to be a decision either way on this.
Rangers were guilty of one thing, running out of cash. Obviously in part to spending outwith their means but tell me how this is/ was any different to when motherwell, livingston, dundee twice bumped their creditors for the same reasons??
TRFC, you're absolutely right that there were those involved within the SPL that tried to get Rangers into the SFL1.
Certainly the main catalyst of this was Mitchell, the chief executive. Which clubs instructed him to act in this way, if any, is up for debate as I don't think anyone publically said this is what they wanted.
Certainly the supporters of all teams, Rangers included, said that once they were put out the SPL then they should start in SFL3.
I agree that whole episode was disappointing.
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Page 2 of 3
posted on 6/9/12
tafka - do clubs consult there fans in other, equally important decisions such as prices for season tickets, signings etc?
or was this just a special case as it was Rangers?
posted on 6/9/12
comment by Tafka Gaffer (U6804)
posted 41 minutes ago
I heard him and suspected he was boolshitting.
---------
Pointy thats actually what worried me - I thought the guy sounded genuine.
Not some mad ranting maniac and while a little unsure of some points on the face of it had little of no reason to do this.
==
so taking this in to account can we rule out him being a Celtic fan?
posted on 6/9/12
The Rangers lads in my work have been talking about this for the past few days. No idea where they got it from.
However as mentioned above it doesn't look like it is enforceable so does it matter?
posted on 6/9/12
I don't think another SPL club would have been treated as harshly as Rangers. The clubs themselves did not want to put Rangers in the bottom tier. However the sheer hatred from fans won over and we are where we are. That may sound paranoid etc, but radio phone ins/debate sites have shown us the sheer hatred. When you get fans of other clubs who won't talk about anything but rangers through seething gritted teeth it's pretty plain to see. Would these same fans be as raging and baying for blood if say St Johnstone or Kilmarnock had been in the position Rangers were in? Not saying we didn't deserve punishment but did Airdrie have to start from the bottom? Was there anyone baying for blood when Motherwell went into admin? Maybe not identical scenarios but people wanted to floor Rangers from the get go I don't remember that happening with these teams.
Still no point in doing this though. It will only bite us in the erchie in the long run.
posted on 6/9/12
All good points, db.
posted on 6/9/12
so taking this in to account can we rule out him being a Celtic fan?
---------
Now now...
----------------
or was this just a special case as it was Rangers?
-----------
I would think that is fans decided to stop going to games over the signing of a player - the Marlon Harewood one springs to mind - then yes I think they would listen.
In this case if you as a chairman are being told by your supporters groups that they will not renew season books - the main income for the club equating to around 50-60% in some cases - what are they supposed to do TRFC?
posted on 6/9/12
Agree Wire the cup format makes it highly unlikely to ever get off the ground. A workable solution in a league sense would be to have season ticket holders buy a debenture that granted them the right to purchase a season ticket at a nominal sum.
Offcourse any single match tickets sold would be subject to any split that came to pass but would reduce the benifit to such a point as to make it not worth the bother.
posted on 6/9/12
Tafka
i appreciate that but you have to wonder what kind of fans would rather see thier own club go into admin just to see rangers out the league. im thinking Killie, Motherwell, ICT specifically as these teams are/ were reported as being on the brink with us in the league.
that to me is a decision based on something other than sporting integrity. that decisions by many was driven by hatred
surely you can't deny that
posted on 6/9/12
db
Not going to get into stuff covered a million times on here and elsewhere but Motherwell and Airdrie really have no relevence to what happened to Rangers, Gretna is about the closest comparison there is.
Motherwell were never liquidated and had Rangers been able to continue in administration they would have remained in the SPL this season just as Motherwell did and Dundee if memeory serves me right did in the SFL. Airdrionians ceased to exist and Airdrie United is infact Clydebank with its history SFA registration etc etc etc.
posted on 6/9/12
So.... The Rangers board don't want to give money to an SPL team because?
The think the SPL and the SFA are bad, and made The Rangers go to Division three for doing nothing wrong.
Give me strength.
posted on 6/9/12
i appreciate that but you have to wonder what kind of fans would rather see thier own club go into admin just to see rangers out the league. im thinking Killie, Motherwell, ICT specifically as these teams are/ were reported as being on the brink with us in the league.
---------
I do appreciate that, but if you can leave cash aside for one moment and lets say its Aberdeen or Hearts in this situation and your club is to vote....
Same rule set - they have been placed in administration and are to be liquidated, meaning the 'ticket' for their place is available in the SPL and the only means of acceptance is the other SPL clubs voting to allow them back in.
How would Rangers vote? Would you be happy of your club voting to save a newco Aberdeen for example and giving them the chance to come back and take your place higher up the league?
posted on 6/9/12
these were the same fans who demanded their clubs vote no to newco in the SPL for sporting integrity reasons but didn't utter a peep when the SPL/ SFA were attempting to shoe horn Rangers in to the SFL1 to mitigate the financial hit on SPL clubs.
Also these fans who cried from the rooftops were told by their chairmen that in return for the club listening to their views they must back the club in return. so far that has been a pretty spectacular flop, sell out saturday for example.
_________________________________________
Absolute pash (apart from the sell out Saturday bit, which didn't sell out).
I think you'll find that the fans of the other SPL clubs did in fact make their voices heard about the moves to shoehorn Rangers into the SFL1. They were told in no way would the fans be happy with that as it was either a case of keep them in the SPL or, as everyone wanted including Rangers fans, let them start again in SFL3.
As a matter of interest, the only SPL club that I am aware of making a statement on this was Dundee United, who stated that the SFL clubs should be allowed to make their decision without any pressure or influence from the SPL and should make the decision on their terms and only their terms.
posted on 6/9/12
I think that THE rangers should grasp the oppotunity of fiddling Motherwell out of a fair share of the gate money with both hands as they will not get the chance again this season in this cup.
The team that used to play in govan did much the same over a longer period of time and on a much larger scale.
posted on 6/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/9/12
i appreciate that but you have to wonder what kind of fans would rather see thier own club go into admin just to see rangers out the league. im thinking Killie, Motherwell, ICT specifically as these teams are/ were reported as being on the brink with us in the league.
that to me is a decision based on something other than sporting integrity. that decisions by many was driven by hatred
________________________________________
This is the problem right here.
You seem to think that everyone should be driven by self interest rather than fairness.
If Dundee United were to go into liquidation (note that it's liquidation, not administration) then we should be put in the third division. No questions asked, no argument put up. It's the right thing to do.
If it was to happen then it would be nobodies fault but our own for making a business model that is unworkable.
If the question was raised should Dundee United be demoted to the SFL3 then I would advocate that they should, even though it's my club, as it's the right thing to do.
posted on 6/9/12
Motherwell were never liquidated and had Rangers been able to continue in administration they would have remained in the SPL this season just as Motherwell did and Dundee if memeory serves me right did in the SFL. Airdrionians ceased to exist and Airdrie United is infact Clydebank with its history SFA registration etc etc etc.
----------------------------------------------------
I did say I know they're not identical. What I'm getting at is the attitude towards these teams.
When Motherwell went into Admin, no-one was getting on their high horse and ripping them to shreds. As soon as Rangers showed a hint of it the abuse was coming from all angles. A lot of it was deserved of course, but you can't deny that fans hatred of Rangers is a major reason for why we are now in the bottom league.
Would fans have objected so vociferously had the vote been to keep St Johnstone in the SPL? It would barely have registered with the fans of other clubs.
It can't be denied that the fans of other teams saw an oppurtunity to bring Rangers down and have revelled in it.
It also can't be denied that the SPL chairmen tried to do a deal to get Rangers in Div1 which was hugely disrespectful to the SFL and may well still come back to haunt them.
posted on 6/9/12
If Dundee United were to go into liquidation (note that it's liquidation, not administration) then we should be put in the third division. No questions asked, no argument put up. It's the right thing to do.
------------------------------------------
You say that now that the precedent has been well and truly set.
However had this happened to Dundee Utd and not Rangers I really don't believe there would have been the same outcry to see them dropped to the third division.
The scenario of kicking Rangers out the league gained momentum due to the fans of other clubs pressurising their chairmen. Do you really think the fans of other clubs would have been baying for united's blood in the same manner? I know I wouldn't have.
posted on 6/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/9/12
Motherwell were not cheating..............simple.
posted on 6/9/12
However had this happened to Dundee Utd and not Rangers I really don't believe there would have been the same outcry to see them dropped to the third division.
___________________________________________
Obviously we're talking theoretically since this hasn't happened, but I stand by what I said. If the Rangers situation hadn't happened and it had happened to United, I would have agreed with the demotion to the third as it was the right thing to do.
Just as many (the majority?) or Rangers fans agreed that it was the right thing to do.
You are right though that there wouldn't have been the same clamour. For me this says more about the state of our game and how it would appear that only Rangers and Celtic generate interest than anything else.
We could also flip this around and say that if it was anyone other than Rangers or Celtic would there have been as much effort to keep them in the top flight? Of course not. They'd have been told to go to the third and nobody would have batted an eyelid, certainly not anyone from Rangers.
posted on 6/9/12
The idea is unworkable and impossible.
There are specific rules against that kind of thing, it goes against the spirit of the game, and it could see Rangers get into trouble with the authorities.
Hang on...
posted on 6/9/12
Absolute pash (apart from the sell out Saturday bit, which didn't sell out).
I think you'll find that the fans of the other SPL clubs did in fact make their voices heard about the moves to shoehorn Rangers into the SFL1. They were told in no way would the fans be happy with that as it was either a case of keep them in the SPL or, as everyone wanted including Rangers fans, let them start again in SFL3.
As a matter of interest, the only SPL club that I am aware of making a statement on this was Dundee United, who stated that the SFL clubs should be allowed to make their decision without any pressure or influence from the SPL and should make the decision on their terms and only their terms.
===
ivan
there were plenty of SFL clubs coming out making statements that the plans to shoe-horn rangers into SFL1 were nothing more than bully boy tactics with their doomsday scenarios with false predictions of lost revenue, even threats that the SFL would not be paid its £2m parachute payment.
Both the Raith Rovers and East Stirlingshire chairmen released statements to that effect.
where were the champions of sporting integrity when all that was happening? you say your own club released a statement, that being the case well done to Utd but i have to say the view from your club was well and truly in the minority!
posted on 6/9/12
The fan reaction was in my opionion the same backlash I think you would have in any league towards a huge club.
The other club boards succumbed to fan pressuse thinking a plan B could be implemented in reducing the damage only to have the SFL scupper such.
The games administrators did everything they could to save Rangers but in the absence of a public bailout the old "too big to fail" cliche infact worked in the reverse Rangers were too big to save.
The sums involved meant no one was willing to stump up the cash needed to avoid liquidation. This point is rarely talked about if all those who came forward claiming to only have Rangers at heart had combined their resources rather than openely rubbishing each others bids to get control as cheaply as possible we would not be having this converstion
posted on 6/9/12
Could it be anything to do with how the club got itself into administration, lavishing contracts and purchases on players that were far outwith the reach of our game?
The EBT scandal; the taxation issues etc?
===
Ginger
that would be all well and good if the cases in questionhad been proven.
many fans seem to have adopted a hostile attitude and see rangers have cheated yet there has yet to be a decision either way on this.
Rangers were guilty of one thing, running out of cash. Obviously in part to spending outwith their means but tell me how this is/ was any different to when motherwell, livingston, dundee twice bumped their creditors for the same reasons??
posted on 6/9/12
TRFC, you're absolutely right that there were those involved within the SPL that tried to get Rangers into the SFL1.
Certainly the main catalyst of this was Mitchell, the chief executive. Which clubs instructed him to act in this way, if any, is up for debate as I don't think anyone publically said this is what they wanted.
Certainly the supporters of all teams, Rangers included, said that once they were put out the SPL then they should start in SFL3.
I agree that whole episode was disappointing.
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