As you say, Barcelona have Busquets anchoring the passing midfield. And despite the diminutive size of their magicians, they are also super-fit and hard working, and as a unit they press like fiends when out of possession.
I'd like us to play something like that formation but I agree that we don't quite have the personnel to make it work - unless Cleverley / Anderson provide consistency. Scholes is great but lacks the legs to do the pressing game. Carrick is very talented but doesn't zip the ball around fast enough unless he has the right partner. But if we have Carrick doing the Busquets role + two from Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa playing the parts of Iniesta and Xavi, we could have a bit of a system on our hands.
They key is the fitness and form of young players who have struggled with these so far.
Red Russian (U4715)
Why are we copying Barca.
It is their system and even if we become very good at it, Barca would still be better at that.
Why not use our strengths.
As a gr8 man said, "My plan B is to make sure that i don't need my plan B".
If we are able to find 1 good CM(DeRossi/Martinez/Toure) to partner Carrick, i think we would be very strong in Europe.
I think in RVP and Rooney we have the best strike force in Europe, and with Nani/Val/Young probably the second best set of wingers(second to real).
Yes, Barca will still defeat us 7 times out of 10 but there is no guarentee that we will face them.
Spot on RR
We have the personnel, we just need to keep them fit
I have high hopes for Clevs. If he gets a full season under his belt, I think he'll become a very very good player
Ando is a beast but even I am starting to think injuries are going to ruin his career. God knows whether some of it is self inflicted or not but it would be a massive shame because this gy could be way way better then we've seen so far.
Powell is young but I think he is one of those players who will break through sooner rather than later.
I don't think he is trying to emulate Barca's midfield.
First of all, we play wingers, so we do not focus on possesion. Secondly, Kagawa, whatever people think, player as more of a deep forward than a midfielder.
As well as these points, we do not press the ball, one of Barcas biggest strengths.
comment by UnitedRedMacca- If they want another Admin, I'm not interested in being on the standby list. I'm good enough to be Admin 3!! (U2024)
I see Powell going the Lampard way.
He has a tremendous shot, good spatial awareness and decent-ish passing range but he will never ever come near to Scholes(God knows why SAF made that comparison and straightaway put the lad under pressure).
I have seen a lot of our reserve games and our pre-season games too, he often drifts out of matches.
His short passing is crisp and quick but hav not seen any range.
But he is still 18 and may go on to become a top top player.
I m however sceptical.
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U are right.
That is why i just do not understand what SAF wants from our midfield.
Carrick and Scholes will provide very good passing/tempo but no defensive mobility.
Clevz/Ando provides tonnes of mobility,some indifferent passing(with much less range) but no positional awareness whatsoever.
These midfields are good against standard English opposition but against good teams, this will put our defense under a lot of pressure.
We need a quality replacement for Fletch(player in the ilk of Martinez/DeRossi)
Also, God knows what we will do if Carrick gets injured.
Most of our midfield combinations will leave us either limited in attack or vulnerable to quick counter attcks.
And good teams know how to exploit that.
Did not read all that. What I do know is whatever he has gone to is not working. Our possession is not that increased, Teams with the little possession can still get through the midfield and his idea of how to play this formation "well" is to put carrick and scholes in a position which has much a job of winning the ball or at least pressuring the opposition midfield high up so the lose the ball quickly at a position high enough for defenders to mop up, complete anti-thesis of their qualities.
This formation requires more creative players than we have, A defence than can play a higher line than we have and maybe MOST IMPORTANTLY a run and pass mentality which allows to pull defences out of position. Again a complete opposite of what we have; A defence more comfortable playing a low line, a midfield that contains shielders and players who prefer to do the hollywood pass (which is not a characteristic of possession football) than to drive the ball up and pass it into the feet of the forwards and a pass first mentality that has been the hallmark of united teams for over 20 odd yrs.
I will put money down that at least 90% of our best games will be played with us having a 4-4-2 on the pitch. Also all our best games will have a pairing of anderson and cleverley (whenever they get to play) together. I can confidently say this because this is the trend for close to 5 yrs.
Fergie is denying what he is. Its almost childish.
I agree Powell is a lot like Lamps, more so than Gerrard as everybody touted him. Said that from the start!!!
The article was a bit too turgid for me but it basically boils down to what we have been lamenting for a few years now:
OUR MIDFIELD. It is either arrogance or blind hope and faith that SAF refuses to address this.
Again smile I agree, we need a fletcher\ hargreaves replacement.
Carrick, traditionally slow starter or not, isn't pretecting the centre halves, he doesn't have the energy to press nore the aggression to bother the like of Everton, Stoke, Newcastle, Liverpool, the more physical teams.
For these games he needs a parter who can get in their faces and enjoys a good battle in the middle. Hopefully Fletch still has this in him.
Whatever people say about the technical abilities of the Tiote, Fellaini, Mascerano types, that is exactly what we need imo.
Allow the wingers, Kagawa, Rooney to create for RVP.
I agree TRC, Fergie has it completely wrong with our central midfield. Whether it be stubburness or blind loyalty, its clearly a huge issue.
Why we don't use Anderson, I'll never know.
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U r right.
But players like Fellaini/Tiote do not have anywhere near the passing ability of Fletch/Hargreaves.
We doo need a replacement for Fletch but not a player like Tiote/Fellaini.
We deserve better.
comment by Valencia_Smile (U1207)
posted 3 minutes ago
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U r right.
But players like Fellaini/Tiote do not have anywhere near the passing ability of Fletch/Hargreaves.
---------------------------
Surely this is a wind up?
I have seen a few fatuous statements in my time but this?
The_Red_Connoisseur (U9741)
Do u really think players like Mach/Tiote/Fellaini are better in possesion than Fletch/Hargreaves????
Do u also think Scott Parker is a gr8 CM?????
Have u ever seen Tiote play for Newcastle, he wind the ball and then makes the easiest 5 yard pass which if not available he looses possesion.
Tiote is a very good distributer of the ball. Personally, I think his aggression and mobility, as well as his distrubution would outweight Carricks passing ability and 'positional sense' I keep hearing about.
Also, I don't think we need a passer, we need an aggressive, mobile ball winner who will give the ball to a winger or his midfield parter.
We don't need a creative player imo.
Valencia_Smile, i will give you an assignment: watch Tiote all season and then we can have this chat again.
And 'nowhere near ' Fletcher/Hagreaves? You are talking as if Hagreaves and Fletcher are Scholes or Xavi. Fletcher was a very mediocre passer of the ball and was very wasteful in possession.
As for Fellaini? He is better than all of our CM options.
Fine, you might not like their style but don't come out with unintelligent remarks like that.
comment by The_Red_Connoisseur (U9741)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Valencia_Smile (U1207)
posted 3 minutes ago
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U r right.
But players like Fellaini/Tiote do not have anywhere near the passing ability of Fletch/Hargreaves.
---------------------------
Surely this is a wind up?
I have seen a few fatuous statements in my time but this?
...................
Bloody hell, we agree again.
Also, I don't think we need a passer, we need an aggressive, mobile ball winner who will give the ball to a winger or his midfield parter.
Is there any Yaya Toure types out there in Europe?!
BusbysBabes (U9083)
Do u think that with the kind of tackles Tiote makes in PL, he will get away with it in Europe with card happy refs.
Also do u know that Carrick made more tackles and more interceptions than Tiote last season
ohh ya, and just 15-20% of the fouls Tiote made.
Red Tomatoes; A defence more comfortable playing a low line;
This is the key thing, in a team when the lines of defence,midfield and attack are in close proximity to each other.
An extract from an article based on Arrigo Sacchi and his modern methods during his time at AC Milan;
'he made sure that the defence and midfield were never 25 metres apart. This meant that the opposition would struggle to penetrate the team through the middle, and almost always be forced to go out wide. This also meant, when the ball was in the oppositions area, the defensive line would be very high, sometimes near the half-way line.
This caused the midfield and strikers to shift further up the field. This almost, always caused high pressure on the opposition, as space to pass the ball was often closed down.'
With Ferdi and Vidic, our defensive line is set too far back, due to their lack of pace, and this adds alot of pressure to the likes of Carrick and Scholes etc. When Evans/Smalling played together last season in defence for a month or so they pushed the line up and it was evident we gained much better control over teams, most notably at the Emirates against Arsenal. Cleverley and Anderson when paired were fantastic together going forward and many times did a great job getting back to help out defensively, but both must improve their understanding of when to "bomb forward" and understand the space they could leave behind, over time, their understanding will get better and be much more matured, im sure of it, but they need games together.
There are two main reaasons why we conceede the ball way to much in the centre of midfield.
First is the obvious one. When you play 442 and one of the centre players in that 442 is 38 years old, then for the last twenty minutes or so of each half he is going to be knackered.
Secondly, and this is one that is often overlooked, is that we defend way to deep. And when you defend to deep, it stretches the midfield.
For those interested, here is a link to that article on Sacchi's way of setting up his team during his time at AC Milan, http://forzaitalianfootball.com/2012/08/arrigo-sacchi-and-his-italian-revolution/
Secondly, and this is one that is often overlooked, is that we defend way to deep. And when you defend to deep, it stretches the midfield.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. That is why players who press us all over the pitch and with pace would exploit our weakness.
Decent teams like Bilbao and Ajax were running rings around us .
Also, the gap between our attack and midfield is too vast and the gap between our midfield and defence too. That is why when we play teams like City and we lose the ball, bulls like Yaya can pick it up and just run through our midfield without breaking stride.
Valencia_Smile
I'm not suggesting we try to copy Barcelona. But I do think a tactical shift could solve some of the relative weaknesses we have seen in our team since around 2009. Lots of teams play a variation of a system with three players quite close to each other in the middle. We have frequently found ourselves failing to dominate games as a result of not controlling the midfield (usually because we are outnumbered there) and relied on hitting teams on the break / hanging on to narrow leads.
The fact that we have brought in Kagawa with explicit comments about him playing behind a striker, as well as the fact that we played a kind of 4-5-1 with Rooney up front a couple of seasons ago, suggest to me that Fergie is not averse to this - that there isn't an unchangeable 'United style' that we couldn't possibly adapt.
I do think that playing Kagawa + two midfielders behind him or Kagawa + Cleverley + one more defensive player behind them would provide us with a great deal more strength in the centre of the field, both in terms of shielding the defence and keeping the ball and moving it around quickly.
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Midfield approach?
Page 1 of 2
posted on 20/9/12
As you say, Barcelona have Busquets anchoring the passing midfield. And despite the diminutive size of their magicians, they are also super-fit and hard working, and as a unit they press like fiends when out of possession.
I'd like us to play something like that formation but I agree that we don't quite have the personnel to make it work - unless Cleverley / Anderson provide consistency. Scholes is great but lacks the legs to do the pressing game. Carrick is very talented but doesn't zip the ball around fast enough unless he has the right partner. But if we have Carrick doing the Busquets role + two from Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa playing the parts of Iniesta and Xavi, we could have a bit of a system on our hands.
They key is the fitness and form of young players who have struggled with these so far.
posted on 20/9/12
Red Russian (U4715)
Why are we copying Barca.
It is their system and even if we become very good at it, Barca would still be better at that.
Why not use our strengths.
As a gr8 man said, "My plan B is to make sure that i don't need my plan B".
If we are able to find 1 good CM(DeRossi/Martinez/Toure) to partner Carrick, i think we would be very strong in Europe.
I think in RVP and Rooney we have the best strike force in Europe, and with Nani/Val/Young probably the second best set of wingers(second to real).
Yes, Barca will still defeat us 7 times out of 10 but there is no guarentee that we will face them.
posted on 20/9/12
Spot on RR
We have the personnel, we just need to keep them fit
I have high hopes for Clevs. If he gets a full season under his belt, I think he'll become a very very good player
Ando is a beast but even I am starting to think injuries are going to ruin his career. God knows whether some of it is self inflicted or not but it would be a massive shame because this gy could be way way better then we've seen so far.
Powell is young but I think he is one of those players who will break through sooner rather than later.
posted on 20/9/12
I don't think he is trying to emulate Barca's midfield.
First of all, we play wingers, so we do not focus on possesion. Secondly, Kagawa, whatever people think, player as more of a deep forward than a midfielder.
As well as these points, we do not press the ball, one of Barcas biggest strengths.
posted on 20/9/12
comment by UnitedRedMacca- If they want another Admin, I'm not interested in being on the standby list. I'm good enough to be Admin 3!! (U2024)
I see Powell going the Lampard way.
He has a tremendous shot, good spatial awareness and decent-ish passing range but he will never ever come near to Scholes(God knows why SAF made that comparison and straightaway put the lad under pressure).
I have seen a lot of our reserve games and our pre-season games too, he often drifts out of matches.
His short passing is crisp and quick but hav not seen any range.
But he is still 18 and may go on to become a top top player.
I m however sceptical.
posted on 20/9/12
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U are right.
That is why i just do not understand what SAF wants from our midfield.
Carrick and Scholes will provide very good passing/tempo but no defensive mobility.
Clevz/Ando provides tonnes of mobility,some indifferent passing(with much less range) but no positional awareness whatsoever.
These midfields are good against standard English opposition but against good teams, this will put our defense under a lot of pressure.
We need a quality replacement for Fletch(player in the ilk of Martinez/DeRossi)
Also, God knows what we will do if Carrick gets injured.
Most of our midfield combinations will leave us either limited in attack or vulnerable to quick counter attcks.
And good teams know how to exploit that.
posted on 20/9/12
Did not read all that. What I do know is whatever he has gone to is not working. Our possession is not that increased, Teams with the little possession can still get through the midfield and his idea of how to play this formation "well" is to put carrick and scholes in a position which has much a job of winning the ball or at least pressuring the opposition midfield high up so the lose the ball quickly at a position high enough for defenders to mop up, complete anti-thesis of their qualities.
This formation requires more creative players than we have, A defence than can play a higher line than we have and maybe MOST IMPORTANTLY a run and pass mentality which allows to pull defences out of position. Again a complete opposite of what we have; A defence more comfortable playing a low line, a midfield that contains shielders and players who prefer to do the hollywood pass (which is not a characteristic of possession football) than to drive the ball up and pass it into the feet of the forwards and a pass first mentality that has been the hallmark of united teams for over 20 odd yrs.
I will put money down that at least 90% of our best games will be played with us having a 4-4-2 on the pitch. Also all our best games will have a pairing of anderson and cleverley (whenever they get to play) together. I can confidently say this because this is the trend for close to 5 yrs.
Fergie is denying what he is. Its almost childish.
posted on 20/9/12
I agree Powell is a lot like Lamps, more so than Gerrard as everybody touted him. Said that from the start!!!
posted on 20/9/12
The article was a bit too turgid for me but it basically boils down to what we have been lamenting for a few years now:
OUR MIDFIELD. It is either arrogance or blind hope and faith that SAF refuses to address this.
posted on 20/9/12
Again smile I agree, we need a fletcher\ hargreaves replacement.
Carrick, traditionally slow starter or not, isn't pretecting the centre halves, he doesn't have the energy to press nore the aggression to bother the like of Everton, Stoke, Newcastle, Liverpool, the more physical teams.
For these games he needs a parter who can get in their faces and enjoys a good battle in the middle. Hopefully Fletch still has this in him.
Whatever people say about the technical abilities of the Tiote, Fellaini, Mascerano types, that is exactly what we need imo.
Allow the wingers, Kagawa, Rooney to create for RVP.
posted on 20/9/12
I agree TRC, Fergie has it completely wrong with our central midfield. Whether it be stubburness or blind loyalty, its clearly a huge issue.
Why we don't use Anderson, I'll never know.
posted on 20/9/12
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U r right.
But players like Fellaini/Tiote do not have anywhere near the passing ability of Fletch/Hargreaves.
We doo need a replacement for Fletch but not a player like Tiote/Fellaini.
We deserve better.
posted on 20/9/12
comment by Valencia_Smile (U1207)
posted 3 minutes ago
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U r right.
But players like Fellaini/Tiote do not have anywhere near the passing ability of Fletch/Hargreaves.
---------------------------
Surely this is a wind up?
I have seen a few fatuous statements in my time but this?
posted on 20/9/12
The_Red_Connoisseur (U9741)
Do u really think players like Mach/Tiote/Fellaini are better in possesion than Fletch/Hargreaves????
Do u also think Scott Parker is a gr8 CM?????
Have u ever seen Tiote play for Newcastle, he wind the ball and then makes the easiest 5 yard pass which if not available he looses possesion.
posted on 20/9/12
Tiote is a very good distributer of the ball. Personally, I think his aggression and mobility, as well as his distrubution would outweight Carricks passing ability and 'positional sense' I keep hearing about.
posted on 20/9/12
Also, I don't think we need a passer, we need an aggressive, mobile ball winner who will give the ball to a winger or his midfield parter.
We don't need a creative player imo.
posted on 20/9/12
Valencia_Smile, i will give you an assignment: watch Tiote all season and then we can have this chat again.
And 'nowhere near ' Fletcher/Hagreaves? You are talking as if Hagreaves and Fletcher are Scholes or Xavi. Fletcher was a very mediocre passer of the ball and was very wasteful in possession.
As for Fellaini? He is better than all of our CM options.
Fine, you might not like their style but don't come out with unintelligent remarks like that.
posted on 20/9/12
comment by The_Red_Connoisseur (U9741)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Valencia_Smile (U1207)
posted 3 minutes ago
BusbysBabes (U9083)
U r right.
But players like Fellaini/Tiote do not have anywhere near the passing ability of Fletch/Hargreaves.
---------------------------
Surely this is a wind up?
I have seen a few fatuous statements in my time but this?
...................
Bloody hell, we agree again.
posted on 20/9/12
Also, I don't think we need a passer, we need an aggressive, mobile ball winner who will give the ball to a winger or his midfield parter.
Is there any Yaya Toure types out there in Europe?!
posted on 20/9/12
BusbysBabes (U9083)
Do u think that with the kind of tackles Tiote makes in PL, he will get away with it in Europe with card happy refs.
Also do u know that Carrick made more tackles and more interceptions than Tiote last season
ohh ya, and just 15-20% of the fouls Tiote made.
posted on 20/9/12
Red Tomatoes; A defence more comfortable playing a low line;
This is the key thing, in a team when the lines of defence,midfield and attack are in close proximity to each other.
An extract from an article based on Arrigo Sacchi and his modern methods during his time at AC Milan;
'he made sure that the defence and midfield were never 25 metres apart. This meant that the opposition would struggle to penetrate the team through the middle, and almost always be forced to go out wide. This also meant, when the ball was in the oppositions area, the defensive line would be very high, sometimes near the half-way line.
This caused the midfield and strikers to shift further up the field. This almost, always caused high pressure on the opposition, as space to pass the ball was often closed down.'
With Ferdi and Vidic, our defensive line is set too far back, due to their lack of pace, and this adds alot of pressure to the likes of Carrick and Scholes etc. When Evans/Smalling played together last season in defence for a month or so they pushed the line up and it was evident we gained much better control over teams, most notably at the Emirates against Arsenal. Cleverley and Anderson when paired were fantastic together going forward and many times did a great job getting back to help out defensively, but both must improve their understanding of when to "bomb forward" and understand the space they could leave behind, over time, their understanding will get better and be much more matured, im sure of it, but they need games together.
posted on 20/9/12
There are two main reaasons why we conceede the ball way to much in the centre of midfield.
First is the obvious one. When you play 442 and one of the centre players in that 442 is 38 years old, then for the last twenty minutes or so of each half he is going to be knackered.
Secondly, and this is one that is often overlooked, is that we defend way to deep. And when you defend to deep, it stretches the midfield.
posted on 20/9/12
For those interested, here is a link to that article on Sacchi's way of setting up his team during his time at AC Milan, http://forzaitalianfootball.com/2012/08/arrigo-sacchi-and-his-italian-revolution/
posted on 20/9/12
Secondly, and this is one that is often overlooked, is that we defend way to deep. And when you defend to deep, it stretches the midfield.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. That is why players who press us all over the pitch and with pace would exploit our weakness.
Decent teams like Bilbao and Ajax were running rings around us .
Also, the gap between our attack and midfield is too vast and the gap between our midfield and defence too. That is why when we play teams like City and we lose the ball, bulls like Yaya can pick it up and just run through our midfield without breaking stride.
posted on 20/9/12
Valencia_Smile
I'm not suggesting we try to copy Barcelona. But I do think a tactical shift could solve some of the relative weaknesses we have seen in our team since around 2009. Lots of teams play a variation of a system with three players quite close to each other in the middle. We have frequently found ourselves failing to dominate games as a result of not controlling the midfield (usually because we are outnumbered there) and relied on hitting teams on the break / hanging on to narrow leads.
The fact that we have brought in Kagawa with explicit comments about him playing behind a striker, as well as the fact that we played a kind of 4-5-1 with Rooney up front a couple of seasons ago, suggest to me that Fergie is not averse to this - that there isn't an unchangeable 'United style' that we couldn't possibly adapt.
I do think that playing Kagawa + two midfielders behind him or Kagawa + Cleverley + one more defensive player behind them would provide us with a great deal more strength in the centre of the field, both in terms of shielding the defence and keeping the ball and moving it around quickly.
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