Scholes is a liability in a two man midfield and will lose us games. He is half a midfielder. Sir Alex took a positive step yesterday by playing Cleverley - albeit our whole midfield just had an off day and passed it poorly, particularly the wingers. I love Scholes, but if we roll him out against teams that play with energy then we're already a man down.

I don't think the irrational fear of Giggs starting games need to continue on these boards.

It's disrespectful and hardly the kind of thing you'd say to his face. 'Hey Giggs, you're shitt now, just retire!'.

Carrick and Cleverley/Anderson will always be our first choice CM and now Rooney's back we won't see the oldies start any more big games.

I think this could be a very special season for many reasons, not least that I don't think we've (under Sir Alex) won this many games (11 in 13) so we should be optimistic.

Smalling will help because instead of hoofing it back to the opposition and bypassing the midfield, he'll bring the ball out and start helping set up counter attacks. Jones too.

This IMO is the best squad we've ever assembled at United and we have some very good youth players coming through as well.

If we had 2 world class central midfielders in this current United side, we'd be an absolute monstrous team. I'd even fancy us for another CL triumph.

Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson are all okay when given time on the ball. When they get pressed they are made to look very average players.

With RVP and Rooney upfront. And any of Valencia, Kagawa, Nani and Young providing the ammunition.....we'd be a match for anyone. We just need that midfield who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and let the players above get on with their jobs.

Our defence, IMO, isnt as big a problem as some would have us believe. Of course another injury and that changes

raf, rio, evans, evra is a very very decent defencive back four IMO.

where we need to focus is ball retention against the 'better' teams. its not good enough to be 2 nil up and keep it amongst the back four and teh the keeper to boot it up

We need to see what we want to do with nani, ando and kagawa. If they are surplus then use them in the cup games while we have them to give us a decent run

we also need to resolve the rooney conundrom. He does a job in MF aginst the lower teams, but shows isnt a MF with the better ones. He was our leading scorer for 2 seasons so up front would be the best place for him. RVP is on fire but teh way he holds onto teh ball and the litle bit of magic he shows maybe put him behind rooney rather than vice versa

clev isnt the partner for carrick either

SE85

Carrick didn;t lose the ball once from being pressed and I think that's a very unfair and lazy generalisation.

99% of all players lose the ball when pressed and that's just football! Or else no one would tackle.

I could make up these lazy generalisations about players but that doesn't mean they need to be replaced with 'world class players'

De Gea flaps
Rafael loses concentration
Vidic always gets skinned by Torres
Rio uses Twitter when he should be playing
Evra can only look forwards
Anderson is fat
Rooney is fat and has the worst first touch in history
RVP misses easy chances
Welbeck panics when in on goal
Hernandez was born offside

etc etc

What about what Carrick does well - Passes the ball brilliantly - yesterday his pass to RVP to set up Hernandez' goal was brilliant. When receiving the ball at one side of the defence, without even looking he switches it to an empty part of the field and sets up an attack from Rafael/Valencia.
He also is a brilliant shot blocker in defence and covers more ground than any other player doing unseen things like jockeying certain players out of dangerous positions..


Anyway, Carrick deserves his place in the team and yesterday was overworked due to Cleverley having a rare bad game.

Rant over! No more alcohol for me. This took ages to type with no mistakes

(he didn't lose the ball once yesterday due to being pressed. He did pass the ball to the opposition towards the end but Young did that at least 10 times yesterday!)

Fergie has so often preferred pace and power in favour of skill, technique and flair, but when it comes to the most important are of the pitch - the midfield - he doesn't want to go with power and pace, preferring slow experienced players. Very odd.

I don't think Carrick is indespencible this season. He's always the first name on the sheet but he has to play his way into the team in my opinion. I would like to see Cleverly and Anderson play for a lot of the games.

They may not have Carrick's reading of the game, and do not sit and cover the defence, but the more than make up for it with their ability to actually chase after the player that has just run past them.

Darren, Anderson doesn't chase players that run past him! He has lots of plus points but he is not an avid chaser. Watch last seasons Chelsea home game for an example.

Time and time again he just stood there on the half way line knackered. He also did that in the Fulham game this season.

Most people on here agree that Carrick and Anderson are the best pairing because one goes forward and makes things happen while the other mops up after him.

anderson is quite good in the tackle IMO, he chases back too

getting knackered has been a fitness issue, which again isnt as big an issue with the back up we have

He actually can be eased back rather than rushed

Last season they played too advanced which left us a little exposed, but when playing a little deeper when defending a lead, which we always seem to do, I actually think their pace and energy can help us out a lot defensively. Especially as the close players down. Carrick is good at jockeying, but his lack of pace is a real problem at times as he doesn't push up enough as he knows he can't get back. That allows oppositions to push up and close our defenders down, then we hoof it.

Cleverson push forward more creating space for us to play out of defence.

I like Carrick, good player, but he shouldn't play ever game.

Anderson never gains fitness as he never plays enough games.

Carrick is a better passer than both of them, but they have good energy and movement which allows them to drive forward and play out of the midfield. Carrick can't do this. And when we are being hassled all the time and defending so deep there is no space for him to play the ball out.

Darren

He's a DM so he's not supposed to push up though.

Look at yesterday. Imagine you're Carrick and you and Cleverley are looking after 3 players in Hazard, Oscar and Mata. You have Cleverley having a mare and giving the ball away every second pass and then to top that all of you have Rooney coming back and giving away a free kick in Mata territory.

How can Carrick be expected to escape fan scrutiny when everyone around him is losing their heads?

While he wasn't man of the match yesterday he really wasn't at all bad considering how poor his partners were. I saw Carrick tracking Hazard for a lot of the match and Hazard only got one shot on target the whole match so Carrick did that very well.

I've had my say on Cleverson many a time. But I'll say it again. Our most progressive, attacking and enjoyable football since 2007 has been with Cleverson in the midfield pressing the opposition high up the pitch and interlinking with the attackers. With times comes understanding and with understanding comes reliability. If they played as the midfield two for the majority of the season I guarantee right now we win the league.

Red Rob

Carrick was totally anonymous yesterday. Once Chelsea took over on the half hour mark he totally disappeared.

I don't doubt his passing ability. But his Battling qualities and ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck leave a lot to be desired.

People keep banging on about how we need a central playmaker and it's simply not true. We create and score more than enough goals as it is. What we need is a player who can stop the opposition getting on top and Carrick isn't that man.

Darren

As for the harried and hassled thing, thats the fault of the players not making themselves available to him. Next time you watch a game watch Carrick come out of defence with the ball. He stops and looks around which is a very un-English thing to do. If there's no options free he keeps the ball and passes it around. That quality is why we did so well in Europe because it meant we didn't hoof the ball like Stevie G for the sake of it and lose possession.

rob - this has happened to carrick a lot TBH. it gets noticed more in games such as the CFC one

remember barca? carrick left to mark everyone as giggs was gone

I get a feeling clev will be like this in other games when the opposition play like CFC. Hence why I dont see him being more than a good player and someone who will IMO end up at a mid table team

Same with my views on rooney. play wigan every week and both look as if they are the answer to our MF conundrum. Play a CFC and you realise they are made to look average in those positions

SE85

Of course he was anonymous. He was being a DM and defending! Of all the players to blame for being under the cosh it's not him.

Blame Young and Valencia for getting the ball and losing it making us cede even more possession.

Ideally we'd have Carrick plus a more aggressive partner for him rather than Cleverley who is good but i'm not really sure what his role in the team is.

For me, it has to be Carrick and Anderson for reasons I said before. One drives forward while one mops up.

Cleverson are good but offer no defensive protection. Carrickly are good but offer little going forward.
Anderick offer everything you need in a modern midfield two

Agree Stretford.

Rob, I do agree with you about the players not making themselves avaiable. And that is a problem in itself.

But Carrick was pretty average yesterday. He kept giving the ball away.

His lack of pace makes it difficult for him to take the ball away from a player to then pass it. Which is the reason for some many balls ring playe backwards and sideways. I do like this about him as it shows intelligence and good use of the ball. But I also think his physical attributes play a big part in us getting so overrun in midfield at times.

Carrick would be better playing further forward with a faster more dominating cm beside him rather than playing deep next to a player like Xavi.

Well said Red Reason

Carrick deserves a knighthood for having to absorb all the midfield criticism on his own! Considering he plays with a different partner each week he is doing well.

He was actually very good against Barca in 2011 but everytime he gave the ball to Giggs and Park they just lost it and wooops, another Barca attack

Also, being a dm and not pushing up are not mutually exclusive.

Busquets is arguably the best in the game in this role and he pushes very high as he has the energy to do it.

Carrick is not Makelele.

Darren

So yeah, Carrick isn't the problem, it's the partner beside him (or lack thereof).
He's always played well with Anderson and that Blackburn 7-1 was amazing from the two of them. I just don't know why they're not played together more often.

Darren

The entire Barca team push up! They play a 1-9 formation but we haven't got the players for that.

Carrick isn't Makalele but in his career he hasn't been far off.

But let me ask you this. Would Makalele have looked as good as he did with O'Shea, Gibson, Giggs, Park, Jones and others in CM next to him every week?

rob - hats the million dollar question and the 'questioning' of SAF in the other thread

Ok Barca is a bad example. But most top sides that play a dm do not play so deep. They push up. United should not be playing so deep. And I think the fact we're playing with such slow cm's is the reason for this.

By dropping do deep it plays into the oppositions hands, as our attackers have to do the same, or we go long.

Anderson and Cleverly allow us to play a higher line.

If we ha signed somone like Sandro, we could has done the same, because at least Sandro can get back when we play higher.

If you want the best from Carrick he should be playing the role Alonso plays for Madrid, albeit less effective.

Darren

I think the reason we don't play a high line is because for years now we've been playing a counter attacking style based on us ceding possession and letting the opposition come into our half and quickly breaking, taking advantage of the space in the other half and scoring goals that way.
If we pressed high our wing play would not be as effective because the opposition defence are already in their area and more organised to deal with balls coming in.
I personally would break the bank for Gareth Bale and have him on one flank attacking and Nani/Valencia on the other.
We would be dynamite and break extremely quickly leaving Carrick on the half way line and have 5 players attacking with speed.

I shall tell Sir Alex this next time I see him