I've always thought this about Forest (i'm from Notts btw), you can't read an article in the Evening Post without Clough or the European Cups getting a mention, there's a difference between being proud of your past and harking back to it at every chance.

I know some Forest fans who thought O'Driscoll "wasn't doing good enough" a point outside the play-offs and playing decent football not good enough for the two times champions of europe?

Whenever things start to go badly at the city ground Forest fans reaction is always the same, be it player or manager "get rid of him".

It’s all about expectations isn’t it?

At the start of the season I was happy with a 3-5 year plan, investing in young players and putting together a business and structural plan (a la WBA) which would not only see us move up a league but also stay there.
Other people like Sutton will say this was always b@ll@cks and we were daft to believe this was the case.
Sutton was right. Fawaz has thrown the dice. It could have worked out but in fact it’s all turned out rather messy.
I’m feeling deflated about the whole sorry episode. I’m still hoping next season we get our sh@t together....look at Cardiff and Leicester.

Good article CSS, and I agree mostly. But you shouldn't tar all fans with the same brush. It does tend to be that fans that vociferously comment about something on Internet forums are at either end of the spectrum. So you'll read articles and comments on here and other sites and it seems everyone is panicking and wanting the manager sacked and thinks Forest should be winning the Prem. But actually most fans were quite content with SOD, and now are happy to see where McLeish can take us. It just doesn't appear that way.

Thanks Caniggia, you are right, of course, to point out that often, the noisy moaners, are in the minority.

However, it is a sad fact throughout the modern world, that the noisy ones are heard the most. For example, if you listen to the current news, you could be forgiven for thinking that that gay marriage is the subject that bothers us the most, when in reality, most of us dont really care.
The current owner is, at least, social media aware- even if he seems to get his own messages a bit wrong sometimes.

It would be fairly easy for him to take more notice of he deafening noise made on this Forum and Twitter, than the hopeful silence he would experience (if he wasn't in Kuwait) at a match when, perhaps, the game isn't going to plan.

Looking ahead, forest have got a fantastic squad, and the best way to get them playing that way is to try and establish a stable, "all in it together" mentality, and this constant sniping doesn't help.

Patience, particularly at he start of a Managers tenure, would help.

I agree with the article except for the fact that a lot of us were behind the way things were going up until boxing day.

I have much the same opinion as Stillhatehooijdonk. I left the match on boxing day with my 2 kids, feeling proud of what we were developing at Forest. Then came the evening bomb shell. I reckon if you did a count of messages sent in to the official Forest website, 80% of them would be against the sacking of SO'D. At that time we WERE in a state of stability mixed with transition and we were going about it in a measured way that felt good.
I respect Hoons' views and in a way they give me some hope, but personally I am ambivalent whether McL stays or goes and would probably prefer that he goes. I did not think he was the right man when he was appointed and results so far have affirmed that. If he does not go now, I feel he will go in the near future. I would rather we used someone like Pemberton as a mid term measure whilst we have a good, serious think about who we want and can get. Appoint someone that most of the fans would be willing to give a 2 year minimum hand on the helm and then we all grit our teeth when / if times get rough.
For me that someone would NOT be Billy. I am one of those who see his presence as divisive and not aligned with what the owners, or myself, would see as long term needs for the club.

Oddball,

Concerning the slow build and 3-5 year plan - You mean a la Derby County surely?

Yeh, Derby as well!

This is the best article to appear on this board for a long time

The problem with a lot of Forest fans is that as soon as something negative happens, it gets blown out of all proportion and all of a sudden it's the end of the world!

Whilst things have happened is the last couple months that I'm not pleased with, there's also just as many things that I'm more than happy with. It's having this balanced view that keeps me moderately optimistic. Similarly, it's focussing on the negative things that keeps a lot of fans in the 'doom and gloom' category.

We're very close to having an excellent team. A few more defenders and a couple of wingers and we'd be up there with the best in the Champ. But we have time. Come Summer these areas will be addressed. Yeah we tried in January but it's a sellers market, and we are now run by astute businessmen who will not be ripped off, and my hat goes off to them for that. Old One Eye rips the P by saying we're the Man City of the Midlands, but the way I see it, we're being run in much more of a cost effective way than that, and long may it continue.

Look at us now compared to last year ... we're so much better off, and that's thanks to the Hasawi's. Give them time, and they'll get us the the Prem.

I agree with you Hoons. You and I probably agree that it would have been more agreeable to have a long term plan. Obviously you are going to get some numpty’s who are going to moan because we aren’t spending money like it’s going out of fashion.

But it was Fawaz who came back like a bull in a china shop and started sacking everybody...seemingly with no strategy or plan.

Like I said there's things that have happened in the last few months that I don't agree with. With hindsight, I would much rather be sat here now with SOD still as manager. I can understand why Fawaz did what he did, we were inconsistent under SOD, and a change to a proven manager could have changed that. But it hasn't (yet), so it's looking like a bad decision at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up soon, otherwise we're looking at another rebuilding job this season, only this time round at least we'll have the foundations in place first !!

* this summer

css
I gave this article five stars earlier because some of it could be applied to dcfc, esp this paragraph
......................................................................
But, in general, no of course not, they are impatient, continually complaining that not enough money is being spent, moaning at everything they can find...etc

..............................................................................

Our fans are similar. I ask for investment, only to support the good work being done by Clough, and because I feel he has extracted as much as he can out of what has been given to him, cash wise.

I have bought into his project because I find the short-termism in football a bit flabbergasting, and Derby, too, have made bad mistakes that we are still paying for.

I was critical of Lionel Pickering when he was at Derby, who acceded to the fans demands and we brought in a load of panic buys including Ravanelli. He later lost his money and passed on in 2006. As a friend said to me, he won't have a bad word said against Pickering after what happened. He made mistakes, but who doesn't?

I mention this because I think Nigel Doughty passed a year ago this weekend (the Saturday) and nobody has remembered.

That is not a pop at Forest, but football fans in general. We live in the moment and want everything now. We just expect someone to pay the bills, Pickering, Doughty, maybe we should just rein our necks in a bit, look at Swansea and think, with a bit of vision & strategy, we can get there eventually

Absolutely right. Swansea, if my limited knowledge on them is correct, seems to be a pretty good model to aim for. Financial stability and organic growth has to be paramount now. That doesn't come from short term bets, via big signings in transfer windows.

I dont understand FFP enough to know how it will affect clubs, but whilst the power of the big 4 or 5 determines how the TV money is distributed, the massive difference between the income in the Prem and Championship is always going to cause financial brinkmanship in Clubs where relegation from the Prem, or promotion from the Championship is possible/likely - and this is not helped by fans (and Manager's) demanding signings, when for example, Forest were £80m in debt last year.

Neither is it helped when there is almost instant clammer for a Manager's head after a run of poor results - and/or wjhen a Manager leaves because a signing didn't happen. Too often fans and Managers jump on the "we need to sign some players" bandwagon, even though the current squad is performing at well below their capabilities.

You are right, this isn't just a Forest problem, it is the same across many fan bases, but Swansea fans don't demand big "stellar" signings. That is why Swansea could take a bit of a gamble on £2m Michu, rather than go for a big proven name like Harry Rednap always does.

We don't want another Portsmouth, Southampton, West ham (or possibly QPR) to happen here. We have a great squad and our concentration and support should be on helping them to play like they can.

Let us all just hope that Fawaz learn's from his mistakes and we move into a period of coaching and management stability. He need's to have a considered and costed project plan drawn up and then he should stick to it. How can you run a football club without a Chief Executive or Chief Scout? Appoint the right people to do the hand's on stuff and then sit back and let them do what their best at.
That after all is what Senior Management should be about!

"Let us all just hope that Fawaz learn's from his mistakes and we move into a period of coaching and management stability"

The rest of my post a bit too difficult for you to wrap your pea brain around then vidal?

"pea brain"

Fawaz should do himself a favour and not read twitter any more, it is full of the most obnoxious, self entitled, illiterate morons you could ever have the misfortune to share a planet with, who think that they have the right to demand that Fawaz listen to them and do exactly as they say. Most of them are alarmingly young too.

CSS,

I agree that Swansea have done exceptionally well. However, the expectations there are completely different to Forest. We could never have gone to the bottom of League Two and then worked back up. Because Swansea are a 'small' club, they could get to that position before something was done and then could completely restructure and re-evaluate their position. If Forest were on the slide then something or someone would intervene much earlier and it would be a much bigger news story. Thre is so much more pressure at a bigger club and I think it would be much harder for Forest to 'do a Swansea', even though it might be the best option. In some ways, Derby are doing what Swansea did in terms of going back to basics. However, Derby don't have an inspirational owner who is able to bring in revolutionary managers like Martinez, Sousa, Rodgers etc. What Derby do have is a decent youth set up so maybe that will work for them.

css

caniggia
I disagree with you slightly. Swansea may be a 'small' club, but they have been run properly. You can be a big club, but be run irresponsibly. You still need to have a plan/strategy in place.

Everything is relative. Some Derby fans wonder why we aren't in the PL, see the Championship as demeaning, are impatient that Clough hasn't done more, rather than seeing that the club must stabilise and build a platfrom, re-evaluating its position.

Similarly, Forest went back to basics in League 1, had the much maligned transfer acquisitions panel, bought shrewdly (Chambers) and had a core of home-grown players (Morgan, Perch & McGugan).

It should be remembered that Swansea & Forest were promoted at the same time, yet one is now in the PL. It isn't necessarily about expectations, but having a plan in place, sticking to it, like having a set pattern of play making change less disruptive. I'm sure Swansea fans' expectations have increased, as is human nature. It is about having faith in your plan when others are critical and then being vindicated by the final results (we could learn this at Derby where Clough is deemed to have made no progress yet probably has got our Academy working to its best level since I can remember as a fan since the mid 80s).

You might be interested in quote from Huw Jenkins. Jenkins refers to an incident in a game between yourselves and his team. It wasn't just about 'expectations', but having the intelligence to buy into what the club was trying to do.

(Apologies, it is from the Daily Mail, but it does make a good point)

"Initially in League One we didn't really play with that system, but when we got into the Championship with Roberto we asked ourselves how we were going to compete with sides spending a lot of money, who had physical players.


Trying to monopolise possession was our answer.


'There was always a vision of a passing game. Our crowd accept that, it's not just some of us. Our crowd want the ball to come out from the keeper, they want us to take eight passes across the back.

'When we went up to Forest (in the play-off semi-final), once their centre half was free with the ball the crowd were willing him to get that ball into the box. The crowd dictate at times. The fact that this area accepts it shows something of how we've all been brought up. As much as you want to win, there are ways to win.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1392186/How-destitute-ducklings-grew-Swanselona.html#ixzz2JwQ5cUiP

That quote is alluding to the fact that we desperately needed to win that home tie as Swansea had a man sent off and we were drawing. In the last 10 mins of a semi-final like that, fans of any team in the world (Spain, Barcelona etc) would be urging the centre half to lump it into the box. I'm not saying Forest were playing particularly good football during that period, because we weren't, but it's rubbish to suggest the fans were happy with hoofbal, which is basically what Jenkins is trying to have a pop at.

Of course you need a plan in place, but what I'm saying is that it's easier to stick to the plan (through the ups and downs) if you're a smaller club with smaller expectations.

Regarding ‘smaller clubs’ & expectations. I think you make a valid point because some of our fans have used Blackpool as an example, about getting promotion, whereas their expectations probably were lower (survival in the Championship). The pressure was off them, allowing them a bit of freedom. Now there is probably a sense of expectation at Bloomfield Road and the team is less successful.

But their fluke promotion contrasts with Swansea, who had improved each season, making a challenge more likely. Who is to say that if they had lost to you, they would have gone on to win auto promotion next time?

It is easier at clubs with less expectation, but maybe we also play our parts, because fans can perhaps have too many expectations. What is the point about casting envious glances at the PL when Derby, for instance, have spent 9/10 seasons in the second tier (two play-off campaigns, the others bottom half apart from last season). The first aim is to become one of the established sides in the division.

The same with Forest, out of the PL since ’99.

It’s been frustrating following Derby, but I’m glad – now – that our much maligned board, GSE, at least did not press the panic button in 2011 after losing to Forest (double including a thrashing), Crawley, six home defeats out of 7 and about one win over the winter. Under most circumstances, small club (look at Notts Co, sacking someone for losing a game at the bottom team) or big, Clough would have got the sack. And now we’re perhaps benefiting from that patience, partly caused by the realisation that few managers could do better under the circumstances he was working under.

Yep you've got to go through hard times to reap the benefits in the long term. Swansea had to hit rock bottom to turn things around and now look at them. Derby could potentially reap the benefits of sticking with Clough and the youth system, particularly if they hold onto their players. Forest don't have any patience amongst the fans and certainly not the owners.