Mr Chelsea
The thing with the golden generation is that although they were all fantastic players individually, they never really worked as a team. I guess with the new crop of players with have a chance to make them a good team but individually they will never be anything special.
I disagree with that Jonjo, though I can only speak for te United youngsters as I haven't seen enough of the others. If Welbeck can learn how to finish properly he could be brilliant. Smalling too looks like he will be a fantastic centre back in a few years.
Lots of our young players will turn out to be real quality, it just depends what happens during their development.
I criticise Gerrard from completely different viewpoint. Football is much more than blood and guts, Gerrard is a throwback to English football in the sixties, seventies and eighties where teams played without the ball and just ran and kicked forwards. The problem is that you will not beat Spain, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Holland etc etc CONSISTANTLY until you start to modernise the way you think.
The Liverpool supporters love Gerrard because he plays for their team and that's fine and some people like him because he makes an 'obvious' contribution. Running and launching high long balls and throwing himself around like a bully on a playground. Sometimes subtlety is better.
It was not until the statisticians started that people realised how important a player Xavi is for example as he does nothing 'spectacular' but he is the metranone for which Barça build their attacks. He recycles the ball and keeps possession. England have no idea what possession is, yet players like Rooney, Walcott, Wilshere would all benefit ffrom it.
I've been a fan of English football since those wonderful Liverpool teams of the 70s, when they were the only team in Europe (along with Ajax) to want the ball and look after it. But the national teams of the 90s have not done that. That's why you end up losing to Portugal, Brazil, Germany, Italy etc once you reach the latter stages of competitions. THe other teams just wait for Gerrard etc to give them the ball with those aimless kicks. Last night, had Gerrard, just once or twice tried to pass the ball 3 metres to Carrick instead of 40 metres, England would have had more possession and denies attacking opportunity to Montenegro.
Why do you think teams like possession. It's not just to score, it's to passify the opposition. Your midfield in the second half yesterday was ALL WRONG. No subtlety, no variation, no shape. More important, Gerrard and Cleverly should have been within 5 metres of Carrick but hey just moved away from him and completely isolated him. When your player has the ball, you should be moving towards them to give him an option, not away from them.
Now it's not Gerrard's fault. The manager chooses how to play and he wants to play that style but most modern managers and successful ones would probably sacrifice him in order to retain possession or at least tell him to stop wasting possession.
........................
fairplay Xiu...this is what I've thought about english footy for decades
they play and think about footy like this at every level in blighty...from amateur kick arounds with your work pals to professional level..
its ingrained in british footy culture
HMMurdoch (U3202)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 10 minutes ago
The bile for the legend that is Gerrard is quite sad really. It's been around for so long.
Oh please. He how a howler last night. If you are so blinkered that you can't see that then there is no hope for you. Just because he plays for your team does not mean you should just blindly say he's a legend and beyond reproach.
==
I'm defending him from this rubbish that has been spouted even when he's played well.
I criticise Gerrard from completely different viewpoint. Football is much more than blood and guts, Gerrard is a throwback to English football in the sixties, seventies and eighties where teams played without the ball and just ran and kicked forwards. The problem is that you will not beat Spain, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Holland etc etc CONSISTANTLY until you start to modernise the way you think.
The Liverpool supporters love Gerrard because he plays for their team and that's fine and some people like him because he makes an 'obvious' contribution. Running and launching high long balls and throwing himself around like a bully on a playground. Sometimes subtlety is better.
It was not until the statisticians started that people realised how important a player Xavi is for example as he does nothing 'spectacular' but he is the metranone for which Barça build their attacks. He recycles the ball and keeps possession. England have no idea what possession is, yet players like Rooney, Walcott, Wilshere would all benefit ffrom it.
I've been a fan of English football since those wonderful Liverpool teams of the 70s, when they were the only team in Europe (along with Ajax) to want the ball and look after it. But the national teams of the 90s have not done that. That's why you end up losing to Portugal, Brazil, Germany, Italy etc once you reach the latter stages of competitions. THe other teams just wait for Gerrard etc to give them the ball with those aimless kicks. Last night, had Gerrard, just once or twice tried to pass the ball 3 metres to Carrick instead of 40 metres, England would have had more possession and denies attacking opportunity to Montenegro.
Why do you think teams like possession. It's not just to score, it's to passify the opposition. Your midfield in the second half yesterday was ALL WRONG. No subtlety, no variation, no shape. More important, Gerrard and Cleverly should have been within 5 metres of Carrick but hey just moved away from him and completely isolated him. When your player has the ball, you should be moving towards them to give him an option, not away from them.
Now it's not Gerrard's fault. The manager chooses how to play and he wants to play that style but most modern managers and successful ones would probably sacrifice him in order to retain possession or at least tell him to stop wasting possession.
_________
I disagree.
by pekster1144 (U6618)
==
you wrote a lot and said very little
In the last Euros, Gerrard was arguably our best player. It just so happens that he, along with the rest of the team, were sheite last night. You really can't put blame on one person more than any other.
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 4 minutes ago
HMMurdoch (U3202)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 10 minutes ago
The bile for the legend that is Gerrard is quite sad really. It's been around for so long.
Oh please. He how a howler last night. If you are so blinkered that you can't see that then there is no hope for you. Just because he plays for your team does not mean you should just blindly say he's a legend and beyond reproach.
==
I'm defending him from this rubbish that has been spouted even when he's played well.
-----------------------------------------------------
Are you defending the player or defending the player because he plays for Liverpool.
If Gerrard was a United player or a Chelsea player would you be defending him????
Capello's was no mug. He realised early on that England had limited players so went with an old-fashioned 4-4-2 and speedy wingers (e.g. Walcott, SWP, and some other guys I guess). And probably Crouch up front (I forget). The master tactician had us playing hoofball of the highest level. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here.
I gota say. I love the morning after an England match on ja606. The arguments on here, get me through the day quicker than normal
capello got to grips early on that you cant play technical, tactical footy with 11 british players...so yer, he went for a traditional 4-4-2 with rapid wingers ...basic footy, that british footballers might be able to play
Mr C, I keep bouncing around to different threads. Some people are writing absolute novels only to be completely ignored by rivals complaining about Saurez sticking one on some guy.
The way the pundits(apart from Keane) were talking last night you would have thought England had played one of the big Nations of Europe like Germany or Spain.
We scraped a draw against Montenegro a Country with a population of less than the greater Manchester area.Poor managerial decisions(or lack of them) and a poor display from the 11 highly paid players on the pitch shows how poor we are.
Montenegro didn't have to do much to get back into the game.They seen after the first minute of the second half after 4 dreadful touches that we were there for the taking.A good manager and a good captain would get a grip of the players and get them playing again.
Alas we had neither
Montenegro actually played a very British up and at em big lads up front and pump the balls into the box type of game and the English players failed to deal with it
phil neville has three left feet (U13806)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 4 minutes ago
HMMurdoch (U3202)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 10 minutes ago
The bile for the legend that is Gerrard is quite sad really. It's been around for so long.
Oh please. He how a howler last night. If you are so blinkered that you can't see that then there is no hope for you. Just because he plays for your team does not mean you should just blindly say he's a legend and beyond reproach.
==
I'm defending him from this rubbish that has been spouted even when he's played well.
-----------------------------------------------------
Are you defending the player or defending the player because he plays for Liverpool.
If Gerrard was a United player or a Chelsea player would you be defending him????
==
Neither. I have seen him week in week out for a decade and I dont think people who see him for a fraction of this deserve to write him off or call him a poor player now. There is no foundation to their comments.
His stats and assists also prove that for LFC he has been a massive contibutor this season.
As has been said, it shouldn't be a case of just defending Gerrard. The entire team was poor. It is incredibly unfair to single out one player for playing badly, when they all did. No Gerrard wasn't as good as he has been at times for Liverpool. Nor was Cleverley/Carrick. Most of the defence had a poor night too. Not one player came out of the performance last night that could hold their head up.
TGI
Last night was hilarious. So many different threads to join in which were slating Welbeck. I couldnt decide which one to take part in
That's just it Mr C, I can't understand why the only people seemingly drawing criticism are the United players, an Gerrard.
Jay we had the focus when Terry was around. Now I guess its your turn.
Our turn!? We had our turn with Beckham and Rooney
Jay...just because all the Liverpool fans say Gerrard is being singled out doesn't mean he can escape criticism.
I have stated that all 11 players were poor,but one of the jobs of a captain of any team is to lead by example Gerrard clearly didn't as it was his sloppiness when in possession that was a part of the second half showing.
His lack of leadership was also all to see in the second half.As he was captain and most senior player along with cole then he had the responsibility whilst on the pitch to galvanise and cajole the less experienced players into putting in a performance.
Did he succeed in doing that?
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 23 minutes ago
The dumbest thing about hodgson is giving the captaincy to Gerrard.
==
idiotic comment without anything to explain it.
••••••••••••••••
It implies he is irreplaceable which is miles away from the truth. It makes him the leader of the of which there really is no TRUE benefit except for some sort of short termed thinking. The captain should be someone with at least a reasonable expectation of at least 5 years in the team. Thinking for this team has to move past this golden generation, they are done.
Which leads to my second point. This new batch might be crap but unless you know a bunch of 17 year olds ready to go into the national team, they are all we have. They should be given time to fail like the golden generation has failed 4-5 times already. I have no hope for the old generation. They played a style of football that did not succeed when it was style, it has not and will not succeed in this new era of football so what makes them a better option other than being used to them?
In fairness though Redastomatoes what other option did roy have for captaincy. Lampard and terry are both the same age or older than gerrard. Rooney, Hart or possibly Wilshire are the only other choices really and none have captained their respective sides apart from the odd one here or there.
Short term thinking.
Gerrard captained England in WC 2010, Euro 2012 and will be the captain we expect for WC 2014.
Short term indeed.
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England will never win anything with
Page 5 of 10
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posted on 27/3/13
Mr Chelsea
The thing with the golden generation is that although they were all fantastic players individually, they never really worked as a team. I guess with the new crop of players with have a chance to make them a good team but individually they will never be anything special.
posted on 27/3/13
I disagree with that Jonjo, though I can only speak for te United youngsters as I haven't seen enough of the others. If Welbeck can learn how to finish properly he could be brilliant. Smalling too looks like he will be a fantastic centre back in a few years.
Lots of our young players will turn out to be real quality, it just depends what happens during their development.
posted on 27/3/13
I criticise Gerrard from completely different viewpoint. Football is much more than blood and guts, Gerrard is a throwback to English football in the sixties, seventies and eighties where teams played without the ball and just ran and kicked forwards. The problem is that you will not beat Spain, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Holland etc etc CONSISTANTLY until you start to modernise the way you think.
The Liverpool supporters love Gerrard because he plays for their team and that's fine and some people like him because he makes an 'obvious' contribution. Running and launching high long balls and throwing himself around like a bully on a playground. Sometimes subtlety is better.
It was not until the statisticians started that people realised how important a player Xavi is for example as he does nothing 'spectacular' but he is the metranone for which Barça build their attacks. He recycles the ball and keeps possession. England have no idea what possession is, yet players like Rooney, Walcott, Wilshere would all benefit ffrom it.
I've been a fan of English football since those wonderful Liverpool teams of the 70s, when they were the only team in Europe (along with Ajax) to want the ball and look after it. But the national teams of the 90s have not done that. That's why you end up losing to Portugal, Brazil, Germany, Italy etc once you reach the latter stages of competitions. THe other teams just wait for Gerrard etc to give them the ball with those aimless kicks. Last night, had Gerrard, just once or twice tried to pass the ball 3 metres to Carrick instead of 40 metres, England would have had more possession and denies attacking opportunity to Montenegro.
Why do you think teams like possession. It's not just to score, it's to passify the opposition. Your midfield in the second half yesterday was ALL WRONG. No subtlety, no variation, no shape. More important, Gerrard and Cleverly should have been within 5 metres of Carrick but hey just moved away from him and completely isolated him. When your player has the ball, you should be moving towards them to give him an option, not away from them.
Now it's not Gerrard's fault. The manager chooses how to play and he wants to play that style but most modern managers and successful ones would probably sacrifice him in order to retain possession or at least tell him to stop wasting possession.
........................
fairplay Xiu...this is what I've thought about english footy for decades
they play and think about footy like this at every level in blighty...from amateur kick arounds with your work pals to professional level..
its ingrained in british footy culture
posted on 27/3/13
HMMurdoch (U3202)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 10 minutes ago
The bile for the legend that is Gerrard is quite sad really. It's been around for so long.
Oh please. He how a howler last night. If you are so blinkered that you can't see that then there is no hope for you. Just because he plays for your team does not mean you should just blindly say he's a legend and beyond reproach.
==
I'm defending him from this rubbish that has been spouted even when he's played well.
posted on 27/3/13
I criticise Gerrard from completely different viewpoint. Football is much more than blood and guts, Gerrard is a throwback to English football in the sixties, seventies and eighties where teams played without the ball and just ran and kicked forwards. The problem is that you will not beat Spain, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Holland etc etc CONSISTANTLY until you start to modernise the way you think.
The Liverpool supporters love Gerrard because he plays for their team and that's fine and some people like him because he makes an 'obvious' contribution. Running and launching high long balls and throwing himself around like a bully on a playground. Sometimes subtlety is better.
It was not until the statisticians started that people realised how important a player Xavi is for example as he does nothing 'spectacular' but he is the metranone for which Barça build their attacks. He recycles the ball and keeps possession. England have no idea what possession is, yet players like Rooney, Walcott, Wilshere would all benefit ffrom it.
I've been a fan of English football since those wonderful Liverpool teams of the 70s, when they were the only team in Europe (along with Ajax) to want the ball and look after it. But the national teams of the 90s have not done that. That's why you end up losing to Portugal, Brazil, Germany, Italy etc once you reach the latter stages of competitions. THe other teams just wait for Gerrard etc to give them the ball with those aimless kicks. Last night, had Gerrard, just once or twice tried to pass the ball 3 metres to Carrick instead of 40 metres, England would have had more possession and denies attacking opportunity to Montenegro.
Why do you think teams like possession. It's not just to score, it's to passify the opposition. Your midfield in the second half yesterday was ALL WRONG. No subtlety, no variation, no shape. More important, Gerrard and Cleverly should have been within 5 metres of Carrick but hey just moved away from him and completely isolated him. When your player has the ball, you should be moving towards them to give him an option, not away from them.
Now it's not Gerrard's fault. The manager chooses how to play and he wants to play that style but most modern managers and successful ones would probably sacrifice him in order to retain possession or at least tell him to stop wasting possession.
_________
I disagree.
posted on 27/3/13
by pekster1144 (U6618)
==
you wrote a lot and said very little
posted on 27/3/13
In the last Euros, Gerrard was arguably our best player. It just so happens that he, along with the rest of the team, were sheite last night. You really can't put blame on one person more than any other.
posted on 27/3/13
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 4 minutes ago
HMMurdoch (U3202)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 10 minutes ago
The bile for the legend that is Gerrard is quite sad really. It's been around for so long.
Oh please. He how a howler last night. If you are so blinkered that you can't see that then there is no hope for you. Just because he plays for your team does not mean you should just blindly say he's a legend and beyond reproach.
==
I'm defending him from this rubbish that has been spouted even when he's played well.
-----------------------------------------------------
Are you defending the player or defending the player because he plays for Liverpool.
If Gerrard was a United player or a Chelsea player would you be defending him????
posted on 27/3/13
Capello's was no mug. He realised early on that England had limited players so went with an old-fashioned 4-4-2 and speedy wingers (e.g. Walcott, SWP, and some other guys I guess). And probably Crouch up front (I forget). The master tactician had us playing hoofball of the highest level. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here.
posted on 27/3/13
I gota say. I love the morning after an England match on ja606. The arguments on here, get me through the day quicker than normal
posted on 27/3/13
capello got to grips early on that you cant play technical, tactical footy with 11 british players...so yer, he went for a traditional 4-4-2 with rapid wingers ...basic footy, that british footballers might be able to play
posted on 27/3/13
Mr C, I keep bouncing around to different threads. Some people are writing absolute novels only to be completely ignored by rivals complaining about Saurez sticking one on some guy.
posted on 27/3/13
The way the pundits(apart from Keane) were talking last night you would have thought England had played one of the big Nations of Europe like Germany or Spain.
We scraped a draw against Montenegro a Country with a population of less than the greater Manchester area.Poor managerial decisions(or lack of them) and a poor display from the 11 highly paid players on the pitch shows how poor we are.
Montenegro didn't have to do much to get back into the game.They seen after the first minute of the second half after 4 dreadful touches that we were there for the taking.A good manager and a good captain would get a grip of the players and get them playing again.
Alas we had neither
posted on 27/3/13
Montenegro actually played a very British up and at em big lads up front and pump the balls into the box type of game and the English players failed to deal with it
posted on 27/3/13
phil neville has three left feet (U13806)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 4 minutes ago
HMMurdoch (U3202)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 10 minutes ago
The bile for the legend that is Gerrard is quite sad really. It's been around for so long.
Oh please. He how a howler last night. If you are so blinkered that you can't see that then there is no hope for you. Just because he plays for your team does not mean you should just blindly say he's a legend and beyond reproach.
==
I'm defending him from this rubbish that has been spouted even when he's played well.
-----------------------------------------------------
Are you defending the player or defending the player because he plays for Liverpool.
If Gerrard was a United player or a Chelsea player would you be defending him????
==
Neither. I have seen him week in week out for a decade and I dont think people who see him for a fraction of this deserve to write him off or call him a poor player now. There is no foundation to their comments.
His stats and assists also prove that for LFC he has been a massive contibutor this season.
posted on 27/3/13
As has been said, it shouldn't be a case of just defending Gerrard. The entire team was poor. It is incredibly unfair to single out one player for playing badly, when they all did. No Gerrard wasn't as good as he has been at times for Liverpool. Nor was Cleverley/Carrick. Most of the defence had a poor night too. Not one player came out of the performance last night that could hold their head up.
posted on 27/3/13
TGI
Last night was hilarious. So many different threads to join in which were slating Welbeck. I couldnt decide which one to take part in
posted on 27/3/13
That's just it Mr C, I can't understand why the only people seemingly drawing criticism are the United players, an Gerrard.
posted on 27/3/13
Jay we had the focus when Terry was around. Now I guess its your turn.
posted on 27/3/13
Our turn!? We had our turn with Beckham and Rooney
posted on 27/3/13
and Rio!
posted on 27/3/13
Jay...just because all the Liverpool fans say Gerrard is being singled out doesn't mean he can escape criticism.
I have stated that all 11 players were poor,but one of the jobs of a captain of any team is to lead by example Gerrard clearly didn't as it was his sloppiness when in possession that was a part of the second half showing.
His lack of leadership was also all to see in the second half.As he was captain and most senior player along with cole then he had the responsibility whilst on the pitch to galvanise and cajole the less experienced players into putting in a performance.
Did he succeed in doing that?
posted on 27/3/13
comment by Javier-Stevie&Xabi (U7411)
posted 23 minutes ago
The dumbest thing about hodgson is giving the captaincy to Gerrard.
==
idiotic comment without anything to explain it.
••••••••••••••••
It implies he is irreplaceable which is miles away from the truth. It makes him the leader of the of which there really is no TRUE benefit except for some sort of short termed thinking. The captain should be someone with at least a reasonable expectation of at least 5 years in the team. Thinking for this team has to move past this golden generation, they are done.
Which leads to my second point. This new batch might be crap but unless you know a bunch of 17 year olds ready to go into the national team, they are all we have. They should be given time to fail like the golden generation has failed 4-5 times already. I have no hope for the old generation. They played a style of football that did not succeed when it was style, it has not and will not succeed in this new era of football so what makes them a better option other than being used to them?
posted on 27/3/13
In fairness though Redastomatoes what other option did roy have for captaincy. Lampard and terry are both the same age or older than gerrard. Rooney, Hart or possibly Wilshire are the only other choices really and none have captained their respective sides apart from the odd one here or there.
posted on 27/3/13
Short term thinking.
Gerrard captained England in WC 2010, Euro 2012 and will be the captain we expect for WC 2014.
Short term indeed.
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