Comment deleted by Site Moderator
TOOR, I haven't, but in my eyes that would imply it was a completely random decision. You see xenophobic remarks virtually every day, not just here but in the mainstream media too. They have to be quite extreme to be considered unacceptable.
He's been banned because he's a controversial poster and someone(s) jumped on the chance to complain. Whether it was under the banner of racism or xenophobia, doesn't really matter. I'm quite sure the motives were to remove weare rather than offense taken
comment by itsonlyagame - el barrilete cósmico (U6426) posted 32 seconds ago
TOOR, I haven't, but in my eyes that would imply it was a completely random decision. You see xenophobic remarks virtually every day, not just here but in the mainstream media too. They have to be quite extreme to be considered unacceptable.
-------------------------------------
Yeah, I hate xenophobia as much as I hate racism, I don't put one ahead of the other, however there's differing degrees in how you can express it. People mention 'Fat Spanish Waiter', I don't consider this xenophobic at all, he is Spanish. The insult is in the fact he looks like a fat waiter. However some may consider it xenophobia but certain nowhere near what Weare said which was out of order.
I'm not racist or xenophobic, I hate every one equally.
TOOR
Interesting point, I recall when some West Ham fans were castigated for calling Defoe "you bl-ck barsteward", the fans claimed the colour reference was just to differentiate him from other players and not part and parcel of the insult.
Not certain if that was true in all our fans minds. Still since then we have swapped the contentious word for "short".
I don't consider this xenophobic at all, he is Spanish. The insult is in the fact he looks like a fat waiter.
--
To make it clear, I don't by any stretch of my imagination think that anyone using the remark views Spaniards as being inferior, and it's quite ikely that in other contexts the very same person might speak very highly of the Spanish, but the fact that we don't view the comment itself is merely due to social convention. But it's very similar to the distinction between making a remark deemed to be racist and being racist.
If it's merely intended as a "statement of fact", what's it doing in an expression intended as offensive in the first place? By the same logic, "fat" is arguably another a statement of fact, but it's clearly intended to offend, isn't it.
How could you conceive looking like a waiter as an insult, if not because it's considered an undignified way of making a living?
Breaking it down, it would more or less go "You look like someone who makes a living in an undignified manner, who is fat and Spanish to boot."
Whether the term is Spanish, Polish, Russian or Indian, there's an implication that people of these nationalities belong in undignified jobs; it's clearly intended to convey a sense of inferiority based on nationality. Saying something like this doesn't make you a xenophobe, but if the remark itself isn't xenophobic, then tell me what is.
Its just like when Bale is called monkey. Can only black people be called monkey then for it to "offensive"?
No wonder the passion has gone out of Englishfootball. On the continent they can smoke, drink, light flares, qave massive flags and banners and basically let loose all game long.
Here tthat's not allowed in "corporate FA overpriced cant do this cant do that land". Bring back the 80's!
comment by itsonlyagame - el barrilete cósmico (U6426)
I don't agree with that at all. Simply he is Spanish and people think he looks like a waiter and is fat.
Dramatic - I've breached that subject on here a few times but it turns out most disagree with me. I also don't consider calling somebody a black whatever is racist. For me it is descriptive of how he looks. You have to express how a person is inferior due to his race in order for there to be racism. Remember a colour isn't a race.
Ardiles I completely agree with that, if somebody looked like Bale but was black, you'd think he looked like a monkey, as Bale does, however you wouldn't dare say it for fear of being deemed racist, which is wrong.
Until we get rid of this and actually deal with proper racism and everybody is equal and thus seen to be against using certain words that are deemed racially abusive, and that means everybody, then there will always be racism.
I don't agree with that at all.
--
Not wishing to put words in your mouth, but does it mean that the only form of xenophobic remark is to say something like "all people of x nationality are a bunch of ys"? What constitutes a xenophobic slur in your opinion?
comment by itsonlyagame - el barrilete cósmico (U6426) posted 6 minutes ago
I don't agree with that at all.
--
Not wishing to put words in your mouth, but does it mean that the only form of xenophobic remark is to say something like "all people of x nationality are a bunch of ys"? What constitutes a xenophobic slur in your opinion?
------------------------------
For me what constitutes a xenophobic slur is showing that you deem a certain nationality inferior with the words you use.
For example, I hate French people because they smell like garlic.
Ok mate, we view it differently I suppose. In my eyes that seems to imply a comment can only be xenophobic if you broadside an entire nation and that a remark can't be xenophobic if it refers to a single individual. I don't think that's completely true and that it's more a question of what we're used to and accept.
Nevertheless I do see your point and appreciate both the time you've taken to discuss this and the way in which you have. People don't always react well to being disagreed with.
Yes whilst that particular example implies that, I feel if you're calling somebody something or saying something BECAUSE of their nationality, whilst using offensive terms, it's xenophobic. I don't feel that's what it is with Rafa. I do feel that's the way it was with Adebayor and Weare's comments.
This leads into what I have said before and that is, if I call somebody a black barsteward, I'm not calling him a batsteward because he's black, that's just the subscriptive word to go along with it and the insult is in the word barsteward(obviously not that word exactly but the one it has replaced), just like calling Rafa Spanish is not an insult but the insult is in the fact they think he looks like a waiter.
This leads into what I have said before and that is, if I call somebody a black barsteward, I'm not calling him a batsteward because he's black, that's just the subscriptive word to go along with it and the insult is in the word barsteward(obviously not that word exactly but the one it has replaced), just like calling Rafa Spanish is not an insult but the insult is in the fact they think he looks like a waiter.
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Spanish is a nationality, Black is refering to someones skin colour, no as in your example why not just call someoe a barsteward? why do you have to point out the persons colour? i don't see anytime you would need to refer to someones colour before searing or remarking on or about them
If you are describing someone then there are better ways to do that then to point out the persons colour.
comment by Full back killer...Aaron Lennon (Ledley, King ... (U15152) posted 1 minute ago
This leads into what I have said before and that is, if I call somebody a black barsteward, I'm not calling him a batsteward because he's black, that's just the subscriptive word to go along with it and the insult is in the word barsteward(obviously not that word exactly but the one it has replaced), just like calling Rafa Spanish is not an insult but the insult is in the fact they think he looks like a waiter.
------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish is a nationality, Black is refering to someones skin colour, no as in your example why not just call someoe a barsteward? why do you have to point out the persons colour? i don't see anytime you would need to refer to someones colour before searing or remarking on or about them
------------------------------------------------
I know Spanish is a nationality. I know a skin colour can be black, I don't see why I need to be told that.
Why not just call him a barsteward? Well the discriptive adds to it. It's the first things as humans we recognise, it's how we identify, a descriptive. People want to take that away from us and say, hey there's no difference, we're all the same, well no, we're not the same, some are black, some are white, some are Asian. Sure we are equals in terms on being humans but we're not the same and if people could accept that, then there wouldn't be so much created racism.
I white person is white, a black person is black, stating so is a discription, not an insult, unless of course the person feels insulted by his colour.
The views people hold on each race need to be tackled and people shouldn't feel afraid to use a discriptive word. Yeah, I wouldn't use it but that's simply due to not wanting anybody to think I am racist as I know how the media have brainwashed many and now we have people shouting racism at every opportunity.
comment by Full back killer...Aaron Lennon (Ledley, King ... (U15152) posted 7 minutes ago
If you are describing someone then there are better ways to do that then to point out the persons colour.
-----------------------------------
In some cases yes, in some no.
Policeman - "did you see who stole your wallet?!"
Guy "Yes, it was that guy over there standing with those other two guys"
Policeman "which one?"
Guy "The black barsteward"
Now I'm giving an extreme example here, so don't take offence, this isn't something I'd say.
Anyhow, the guy has described the guy as black, the policeman now nows exactly which one he is and the guy has called him a barsteward because he stole his phone, not because he's black.
Spanish is a nationality, Black is refering to someones skin colour, no as in your example why not just call someoe a barsteward? why do you have to point out the persons colour? i don't see anytime you would need to refer to someones colour before searing or remarking on or about them
--
The impression this give me is that you feel one is ok and the other not. If that's true, would you care to explain why?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22124013
If Bale had been black, this would have been deemed racist. I find this strange. So black people should be offended by bananas? Surely allowing this to become offensive gives weight to some of the people who do it and thus it creates racism?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Anything intellectually stimulating is boring to you as you don't have the intelligence to hold it.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
white people can own elephants as well you know
I think people who think the phrase is racist are racists tbh.
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Page 4 of 5
posted on 12/4/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/4/13
TOOR, I haven't, but in my eyes that would imply it was a completely random decision. You see xenophobic remarks virtually every day, not just here but in the mainstream media too. They have to be quite extreme to be considered unacceptable.
posted on 12/4/13
He's been banned because he's a controversial poster and someone(s) jumped on the chance to complain. Whether it was under the banner of racism or xenophobia, doesn't really matter. I'm quite sure the motives were to remove weare rather than offense taken
posted on 12/4/13
comment by itsonlyagame - el barrilete cósmico (U6426) posted 32 seconds ago
TOOR, I haven't, but in my eyes that would imply it was a completely random decision. You see xenophobic remarks virtually every day, not just here but in the mainstream media too. They have to be quite extreme to be considered unacceptable.
-------------------------------------
Yeah, I hate xenophobia as much as I hate racism, I don't put one ahead of the other, however there's differing degrees in how you can express it. People mention 'Fat Spanish Waiter', I don't consider this xenophobic at all, he is Spanish. The insult is in the fact he looks like a fat waiter. However some may consider it xenophobia but certain nowhere near what Weare said which was out of order.
posted on 12/4/13
I'm not racist or xenophobic, I hate every one equally.
posted on 12/4/13
TOOR
Interesting point, I recall when some West Ham fans were castigated for calling Defoe "you bl-ck barsteward", the fans claimed the colour reference was just to differentiate him from other players and not part and parcel of the insult.
Not certain if that was true in all our fans minds. Still since then we have swapped the contentious word for "short".
posted on 12/4/13
I don't consider this xenophobic at all, he is Spanish. The insult is in the fact he looks like a fat waiter.
--
To make it clear, I don't by any stretch of my imagination think that anyone using the remark views Spaniards as being inferior, and it's quite ikely that in other contexts the very same person might speak very highly of the Spanish, but the fact that we don't view the comment itself is merely due to social convention. But it's very similar to the distinction between making a remark deemed to be racist and being racist.
If it's merely intended as a "statement of fact", what's it doing in an expression intended as offensive in the first place? By the same logic, "fat" is arguably another a statement of fact, but it's clearly intended to offend, isn't it.
How could you conceive looking like a waiter as an insult, if not because it's considered an undignified way of making a living?
Breaking it down, it would more or less go "You look like someone who makes a living in an undignified manner, who is fat and Spanish to boot."
Whether the term is Spanish, Polish, Russian or Indian, there's an implication that people of these nationalities belong in undignified jobs; it's clearly intended to convey a sense of inferiority based on nationality. Saying something like this doesn't make you a xenophobe, but if the remark itself isn't xenophobic, then tell me what is.
posted on 12/4/13
Its just like when Bale is called monkey. Can only black people be called monkey then for it to "offensive"?
posted on 12/4/13
No wonder the passion has gone out of Englishfootball. On the continent they can smoke, drink, light flares, qave massive flags and banners and basically let loose all game long.
Here tthat's not allowed in "corporate FA overpriced cant do this cant do that land". Bring back the 80's!
posted on 12/4/13
comment by itsonlyagame - el barrilete cósmico (U6426)
I don't agree with that at all. Simply he is Spanish and people think he looks like a waiter and is fat.
Dramatic - I've breached that subject on here a few times but it turns out most disagree with me. I also don't consider calling somebody a black whatever is racist. For me it is descriptive of how he looks. You have to express how a person is inferior due to his race in order for there to be racism. Remember a colour isn't a race.
Ardiles I completely agree with that, if somebody looked like Bale but was black, you'd think he looked like a monkey, as Bale does, however you wouldn't dare say it for fear of being deemed racist, which is wrong.
Until we get rid of this and actually deal with proper racism and everybody is equal and thus seen to be against using certain words that are deemed racially abusive, and that means everybody, then there will always be racism.
posted on 12/4/13
I don't agree with that at all.
--
Not wishing to put words in your mouth, but does it mean that the only form of xenophobic remark is to say something like "all people of x nationality are a bunch of ys"? What constitutes a xenophobic slur in your opinion?
posted on 12/4/13
comment by itsonlyagame - el barrilete cósmico (U6426) posted 6 minutes ago
I don't agree with that at all.
--
Not wishing to put words in your mouth, but does it mean that the only form of xenophobic remark is to say something like "all people of x nationality are a bunch of ys"? What constitutes a xenophobic slur in your opinion?
------------------------------
For me what constitutes a xenophobic slur is showing that you deem a certain nationality inferior with the words you use.
For example, I hate French people because they smell like garlic.
posted on 12/4/13
Ok mate, we view it differently I suppose. In my eyes that seems to imply a comment can only be xenophobic if you broadside an entire nation and that a remark can't be xenophobic if it refers to a single individual. I don't think that's completely true and that it's more a question of what we're used to and accept.
Nevertheless I do see your point and appreciate both the time you've taken to discuss this and the way in which you have. People don't always react well to being disagreed with.
posted on 12/4/13
Yes whilst that particular example implies that, I feel if you're calling somebody something or saying something BECAUSE of their nationality, whilst using offensive terms, it's xenophobic. I don't feel that's what it is with Rafa. I do feel that's the way it was with Adebayor and Weare's comments.
This leads into what I have said before and that is, if I call somebody a black barsteward, I'm not calling him a batsteward because he's black, that's just the subscriptive word to go along with it and the insult is in the word barsteward(obviously not that word exactly but the one it has replaced), just like calling Rafa Spanish is not an insult but the insult is in the fact they think he looks like a waiter.
posted on 12/4/13
This leads into what I have said before and that is, if I call somebody a black barsteward, I'm not calling him a batsteward because he's black, that's just the subscriptive word to go along with it and the insult is in the word barsteward(obviously not that word exactly but the one it has replaced), just like calling Rafa Spanish is not an insult but the insult is in the fact they think he looks like a waiter.
------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish is a nationality, Black is refering to someones skin colour, no as in your example why not just call someoe a barsteward? why do you have to point out the persons colour? i don't see anytime you would need to refer to someones colour before searing or remarking on or about them
posted on 12/4/13
If you are describing someone then there are better ways to do that then to point out the persons colour.
posted on 12/4/13
comment by Full back killer...Aaron Lennon (Ledley, King ... (U15152) posted 1 minute ago
This leads into what I have said before and that is, if I call somebody a black barsteward, I'm not calling him a batsteward because he's black, that's just the subscriptive word to go along with it and the insult is in the word barsteward(obviously not that word exactly but the one it has replaced), just like calling Rafa Spanish is not an insult but the insult is in the fact they think he looks like a waiter.
------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish is a nationality, Black is refering to someones skin colour, no as in your example why not just call someoe a barsteward? why do you have to point out the persons colour? i don't see anytime you would need to refer to someones colour before searing or remarking on or about them
------------------------------------------------
I know Spanish is a nationality. I know a skin colour can be black, I don't see why I need to be told that.
Why not just call him a barsteward? Well the discriptive adds to it. It's the first things as humans we recognise, it's how we identify, a descriptive. People want to take that away from us and say, hey there's no difference, we're all the same, well no, we're not the same, some are black, some are white, some are Asian. Sure we are equals in terms on being humans but we're not the same and if people could accept that, then there wouldn't be so much created racism.
I white person is white, a black person is black, stating so is a discription, not an insult, unless of course the person feels insulted by his colour.
The views people hold on each race need to be tackled and people shouldn't feel afraid to use a discriptive word. Yeah, I wouldn't use it but that's simply due to not wanting anybody to think I am racist as I know how the media have brainwashed many and now we have people shouting racism at every opportunity.
posted on 12/4/13
comment by Full back killer...Aaron Lennon (Ledley, King ... (U15152) posted 7 minutes ago
If you are describing someone then there are better ways to do that then to point out the persons colour.
-----------------------------------
In some cases yes, in some no.
Policeman - "did you see who stole your wallet?!"
Guy "Yes, it was that guy over there standing with those other two guys"
Policeman "which one?"
Guy "The black barsteward"
Now I'm giving an extreme example here, so don't take offence, this isn't something I'd say.
Anyhow, the guy has described the guy as black, the policeman now nows exactly which one he is and the guy has called him a barsteward because he stole his phone, not because he's black.
posted on 12/4/13
Spanish is a nationality, Black is refering to someones skin colour, no as in your example why not just call someoe a barsteward? why do you have to point out the persons colour? i don't see anytime you would need to refer to someones colour before searing or remarking on or about them
--
The impression this give me is that you feel one is ok and the other not. If that's true, would you care to explain why?
posted on 12/4/13
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22124013
If Bale had been black, this would have been deemed racist. I find this strange. So black people should be offended by bananas? Surely allowing this to become offensive gives weight to some of the people who do it and thus it creates racism?
posted on 12/4/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/4/13
Anything intellectually stimulating is boring to you as you don't have the intelligence to hold it.
posted on 12/4/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/4/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/4/13
white people can own elephants as well you know
I think people who think the phrase is racist are racists tbh.
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