LRF

What is your point except for making excuses for someone not doing their job? Even Arsene realizes that and is replacing him.

You don't believe ins statics? Wow. Strikers primary job is to score goals. Thats what they are judged by. Nothing else.

comment by LRF™ - L.aura R.obsons F.orehand (U13170)

posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago

So do City, in fact, they have many World/Top Class Strikers that could have done the same job. Aguero, Tevez, Balotelli (up until Jan), Dzeko etc and they now have Negredo. Them options as good as what Man United have and they have a better midfield and a stronger defence line IMO.

But they didn't win it because they didn't have consistency.
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LRF I will refer you to your previous post

" comment by LRF™ - L.aura R.obsons F.orehand (U13170)

It doesn't take a World Class Striker to win you a Trophy. Consistency, Confidence and the Will to Win is what you need."
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While it might not be mandatory to have a world class (WC) striker, having quality players, including strikers, surely helps. Which your latter post and the reference to Man City kind of corroborates.

My point is that having good players is the very basis for success. Any addition of 'will to win, confidence and consistency' as you put it, is merely the little extra that separates a quality also ran from a trophy winning team.

We do not currently have the necessary quality in the squad to challenge for anything, i.e., by having to rely on strikers of Giroud's bracket, we lack the basic ingredients, and I highly doubt any measure of confidence and consistency would address that.

Strikers primary job is to score goals. Thats what they are judged by. Nothing else.
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I think there is more in it. If you do judge players only on stats its up to you but I am happy to judge a player on more than just like that. Stats can be manipulated and depending even in which teams you play. Its easy to score goals at Munich at the moment. I guess Giroud would have even more scored if he chose them rather than us.

GT

Football is pretty simple. Score one more goal than the opposition. Strikers score goals, defenders/goalkeepers stop them and the midfield help both the defense and attack to do their jobs.

I wish he had chosen Bayern, if they wanted him, because it would have given us a good chance of getting Lewandowski. In fact I would respect Giroud more if he decided to leave and prove many of us wrong rather than remaining as second choice if we were to get our targets.

Well that's kind of wrong marck_2k. You basically contradicted yourself by what you said about Man United and RVP.

Of course it would though. You don't miss basic things. Why can't you get along without a DM? You don't need a DM or a ball winner for that matter. You need 2 class CM's (which you have) and when one goes forward, the other sits back wary of the counter attack and slows the job up.

It's not as if Arsenal do not have the quality to win Trophies. Koscielny, Cazorla, Arteta, Monreal, Szczesny etc. All of these players have the ability to win you Trophies, with ease for me. Your team on a whole is as good as United's IMO, but they have more consistency, hence them winning these Titles.

Is my post about Man City contradicts itself, then why post something about RVP being World Class at Man United? Doesn't that sort of mean it was a pointless comment.

Strikers aren't just used to get goals you know. Do you think Giroud was for all of his games? I know that is his main purpose but you've got to think of his attributes. He is big, physical and a real handful.

He can be used in games to thwart defenders about, give them a hard time, get his arm across them and win headers and pull them about and really wind them down. This could help as it could give the 3 just sitting in behind him the license to run at the heart of defence when they have been run down by Giroud for them to get a goal, so that is 1-0. If he gets a goal himself for the cause, that's a bonus so that could be 2-0. Then, 70 minutes, replace him with another Striker of similar quality but with different attributes i.e. Sanogo and let him use his pace and really burst past a tired defence and let him finish the job, 3-0. He has done his job by winding the defence down and down until they struggle to deal with a different calibre Striker such as Sanogo who is quicker and more technical.

^^ That is exactly why Strikers shouldn't be valued just by their Goals Jenius.

Jenius, You thought you had a chance of getting Lewandowski? Why would he have left the German Champions at the time for Arsenal?

As Gunnerthru says though, look at the service. Are Walcott and Podolski actually Wingers? Either CF's or Inside Forwards, not a player that hugs the touchline, works up and down the field with quality at either ends of the pitch, works back, had the pace to beat a full back and put a good cross in the box. Neither of them are that and Cazorla likes fluid footballers so he doesn't sync with the one's behind fully which is why you need a true Winger in your side. But just because he doesn't sync doesn't mean he can't be used well.

He just needs 1 quality Winger to stick quality balls in the air for him to get on the end of and you could well see him surpass this 20 goal mark with ease personally. He just needs a 2nd chance.

LRF

Your thinking is a lot like Graham Taylor. Lets fill the team with 11 Carlton Palmers. Thank god, Arsene, Ajax, Cruyff and Barca destroyed that myth years ago.

You thought you had a chance of getting Lewandowski? Why would he have left the German Champions at the time for Arsenal?
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Try to get the context LRF. According to GT, Giroud turned down Bayern Munich to come to us.

But it can't all just go down to Stats like you say. They are obviously a key figure to a players ability and valuation but you also forget the fact that they aren't always used for scent purpose to score goals as explained above. They can be used for tactical reasons and this is what these basic supporters don't know when they just go out to cheer for there team. Got to think behind the scenes really because Managers aren't thick, they play players, they field a team and they play a formation for a reason.

Arsene Wenger doesn't just say the Stating 11 and subs and then tell them what the formation is and shut up. There is obviously a reason for some players being played like that and this is why I rate Giroud, because he is a fantastic, strategic Striker that not only have quality in him but he can be used for Tactical reasons as well.

Wanted to answer to your last comment Jenius.

I compare him to RVP because all the fans do it and its normal because he is his direct replacement. That's why. As you pointed out he has a completely different career than other striker before.

Want to come back of your comment:
Strikers are not amorphous creatures 'goal hanging' waiting for the rest of the team to do all the work for them.
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no. You didnt understand what I mean and try to explain again.

I am convinced that to an extend every CF in the world need service apart maybe of Messi who is different to all other strikers in the world.

OG is just another approach and he needs to get involved surely more from the wings or midfield. Are we able to do it though? No we arent. Our crosses, set pieces are appalling. He did manage to adapt a bit overall. He tried to pick up the ball from midfield but that left him exposed when eventually a ball flew into the area where he can do something. He was criticise a lot for that.

Poldi tried the same when OG was banned. You know how it pants out. Dont blame Poldi for that. Its the way we involve or better not involve our CF no matter who play there.

You thought you had a chance of getting Lewandowski? Why would he have left the German Champions at the time for Arsenal?
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Try to get the context LRF. According to GT, Giroud turned down Bayern Munich to come to us.
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Well no he didn't. He used Bayern as an example saying it's easier to score with a better club than with a club not so good because they have better players to provide the service.

Hence why you put this back to him:

"I wish he had chosen Bayern, if they wanted him"

Get with the picture and make sure you know what your saying.

Try to get the context LRF. According to GT, Giroud turned down Bayern Munich to come to us.
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Erm sorry if I didnt explain it properly. Munich consider to sign Giroud as did Chelsea.

"I am convinced that to an extend every CF in the world need service apart maybe of Messi who is different to all other strikers in the world."

That, is exactly what he means and that is what I put in my comment above.

Completely agree with Gunnerthru actually because it's basically what I put above.

Giroud doesn't get the correct service to match his physique hence the goals tally not as big. If you actually had Width and the talent Out Wide, he may have got considerably more and as Gunnerthru stated, your Set Piece play and crosses are well below average.

Munich consider to sign Giroud as did Chelsea.
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Fair enough. Doesn't change what I was trying to get at.

Jenius I am sorry but you are a bit wound up for my comments on Gibbs yesterday. I know you wont admitt that but if you are.

Let us end this here we wont come to any conclusion. I respect your opinion though and we have the same mind in some other football cases

If you actually had Width and the talent Out Wide, he may have got considerably more and as Gunnerthru stated, your Set Piece play and crosses are well below average.
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Graham Taylor. So 1980s. Its precisely the reason why Giroud was not suited to our attacking schemes. We don't play that way and never will.

Graham Taylor. So 1980s. Its precisely the reason why Giroud was not suited to our attacking schemes. We don't play that way and never will.
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We dont play like the Barcelona style either

GT.

I like a good discussion. Not at all wound up. You are a good debater and as long ppl don't retort to insults, I am fine with a strong differing opinion.

It won't change my opinion on Giroud as I am sure you won't change your opinion of him. Its doesn't mean either of us will proven be right. Giroud could score 30 goals next season and I will change my mind on him like I have with Ramsey. Or he could stink the bench like Chamakh has eventually move on as a flop. Its only opinions and I respect yours.

Thats the point of a forum!

very much appreciated Jenius.

We dont play like the Barcelona style either
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Fair enough. Arsene does have a very unique style which he hasn't changed it since Monaco. It is close to Barca however I don't think anyone can replicate that without the players they have.

Thats still not 4-4-2. Its been 4-4-1-1, or 4-3-3 since Wenger became our manager.

I hope for more flexibility in our tactical approach, Jenius. I do think that OG could really profit from it. I am thinking of changing tactical depending on approach.

That is what I want from Wenger. To get players in who can play different styles to make us not so predictable.

Yeah and that's my point. A tactical change and that could really see Giroud fit into your system well and he could be banging in the goals all around.

The problem is that the approach that Wenger, in fact all managers employ takes so long to embed with players you can't alter a formation or style mid game. Thats why we have always historically under performed after International breaks etc.

You will see the style change slowly with Pep and Bayern next year. But he won't really be able to call Bayern his team until he has changed most of the players. Thats why Man Utd have been linked with Schweinsteiger.

Managers are really wedded to their styles which takes years to implement and then has to be torn up and started again with a new crop every 6/7 years. Thats why Wenger/Fergie used to be talked of as creating their 3rd or 4th teams.

Its not really about being predictable with Wenger. Its about imposing your style over the opposition. Thats why Wenger is often criticized, but is correct when he says we must concentrate on ourselves and not so much on the opposition.

comment by LRF™ - L.aura R.obsons F.orehand (U13170)

posted 11 minutes ago

Well that's kind of wrong marck_2k. You basically contradicted yourself by what you said about Man United and RVP.

Is my post about Man City contradicts itself, then why post something about RVP being World Class at Man United? Doesn't that sort of mean it was a pointless comment.
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Let me explain LRF. You wrote 'it does not take a WC striker to get titles'

and then followed it up w/ the example of Man United and Man City, two of the arguably best equipped teams in the league in terms of talent.

I merely pointed out that having the talent was the first and fundamental step towards success.
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"You don't miss basic things. Why can't you get along without a DM? You don't need a DM or a ball winner for that matter. You need 2 class CM's (which you have) and when one goes forward, the other sits back wary of the counter attack and slows the job up.

It's not as if Arsenal do not have the quality to win Trophies. Koscielny, Cazorla, Arteta, Monreal, Szczesny etc. All of these players have the ability to win you Trophies, with ease for me. Your team on a whole is as good as United's IMO, but they have more consistency, hence them winning these Titles."
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The problem is we have had 8 years of getting by and gradually getting worse in all areas of the pitch.
A very recent example to corroborate this - even Caz, arguably our most talented player, is not on par w/ Cesc.

We've been forced to sell the best players and every season the squad has been merely patched up. Hence we went from a CM partnership of Petit-Vieira or Gilberto-Vieira to one containing Arteta-Ramsey/Wilshere. The former two options glaringly show what we have been missing in CM and I think Arsene is aware of it. Sadly one of AWs problems is that his loyalty and belief to his players are sometimes excessive, as is the case w/ Diaby.

Arteta is the CM w/ the best positional discipline, very intelligent. But being in the right place is only half of the job. You can't expect to win all the balls back by merely intercepting passes. He lacks the strength in 50-50s and gives away too many fouls because he is not a good tackler. Plus he cannot catch up w/ more agile players as he is not mobile enough.

Same w. Ramsey. He did a decent job as box to box mid late in the last season but a Vieira he is not.

This is what I meant when I said we lack the basics. We have been patching the squad up for years, these players might do a decent job every now and then but in the end they are way off the quality we used to have and would need to consider our team a title challenger.

I'd say we are not far off a team that could challenge. But we used to lack the resources and now it seems we lack the resolve to strengthen the right areas of the squad. So close and yet so far.

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"Strikers aren't just used to get goals you know. Do you think Giroud was for all of his games? I know that is his main purpose but you've got to think of his attributes. He is big, physical and a real handful."
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I don't judge him only on his goals. He breaks down many of our moves because A. his touch is poor too often, B. frequently, when he tries to do something beyond the one-touch flicks (which, on a side note, are decent), he messes it up and loses the ball, C. his hold up play is not that good either for a man of his size and frame, he loses 50-50s too often. Add to this the fact that he is not prolific by any means and has not scored against any of the top teams in the league, and you will know why I want him to be 2nd choice at best at our club.
What he does well is attack the ball after crosses. But then again, I doubt the very need for a striker of this type at the club because, as you correctly noticed, our wide attackers are no wingers and our FBs are gash at crossing, too.

I would rather have Adam Le Fondre than Giroud.