cont...
Those fans who back Clough have recently attempted to discredit the importance of tactics, and to some extent they’re correct. But it’s obvious that tactics do have a place in the “winning formula”, we have certainly been beaten by tactics! On the other side of the fence, us that aren’t happy with the current set-up can easily see the lack of nous on display, the inability to react to adversity and the naïve instructions which actually leave us more likely to concede when being more defensive!
As a Derby fan, my ambition for the club will always be to be entertaining and competitive, and in recent times, there’s certainly been no lack of incident. So why the feeling of such despondency in some of us? I think it’s seeing other managers do better in similar or worse situations. We can all point to the teams that have bigger budgets and expensively assembled squads, but there’s nothing we can do about that! I personally get depressed that there are plenty of managers who have that ‘magic touch’ that means they can create something special without spending millions. Over the years there’ve been loads of these. It’s obvious to me, that whilst Clough is steady, he has no ‘magic touch’, will never get the ‘winning formula’ and will always finish below both the managers with big budgets (aside of the odd exception), and below those managers with the magic touch.
I can see the good work Clough has done. But all I see now and the future, is Clough limiting Derby and holding the club back.
Bloody hell Mostyn, you need to get out more.
Afraid I stopped reading the tome after paragraph 1. My main defence of Clough is that it is doubtful that many people could have done better although undoubtedly some could, and almost certainly some could have done worse.
I also think it is a myth that his name keeps him in the job although I believe his name helped in get the job in the first place. Whenever his job has looked under pressure his team has always come up with a good result. Hopefully this trend will continue on Saturday.
Wish he would do something about the defence though, and quick. It has been the elephant in the room for Derby since the start of the previous season never mind this season.
Why even bother...?
You're not dealing with people who can appraise objectively; the likes of Peeder, Milf and especially Vidals cannot see any fault with He Who Is Named Clough, elevating him to some kind of modern deity status despite the burgeoning evidence to the contrary.
There's no point appealing to their better judgement; they have none. They cannot see beyong the surname and the 'legacy' strapline used to bring in an amateur manager in the first place. They are guilty of the same misplaced allegiance that Clough himself is, ie putting the man ahead of the club, just as Junior does with his pet players and fat mates.
It's stagnation. Sure, we didn't plummet through the leagues like one or two have after being relegated from the EPL but those are rare cases; these apologists will happily point to the successes of clubs who have spent little and achieved promotion and state categorically that they were 'exceptions to the rule' but cannot type 'Portsmouth' fast enough when it suits them. Of course, they also use the 'relegated clubs with parachute payments' argument as reason why we should be grateful for the mind-numbing mediocrity that Son Of has overseen for the past five years.. hypocritical much?!! "It's all too easy to get relegated again straight away; hurrah for Clough!" and "We can't expect to touch the relegated clubs because of their budget; hurrah for Clough!" often in the same paragraph.
The surefire way of stopping stagnation is to get a proper manager in. The amateur yes man and his pals just ain't cutting the mustard, and never have.
Quote 666
"You're not dealing with people who can appraise objectively; "
Does your company do self awareness courses? If so sign up for one.
Nothing there I disagree with and great analogy by the way
I can never see Clough appointing an experienced coach as I'm not aware its a secret that Clough rules by fear and what he says is final.
Im of the opinion that if Clough is given advice on a matter he wouldnt accept it and stick to what he knows out of blind Stubbornness
Derby will never be better than they currently are under Clough IMO but could possibly be worse under someone else. Would I trust GSE to appoint a decent manager? Probably not but If I could get Clough to go now I would as I have no enthusiasm left
The only concern I'd have GSE might give the job Andy Garner till the end of the season
I don't think he's done too bad really, all things considered. We always tend to be a bit negative after we've lost.
666
As we all know, regurgitation of the same old soundbites and catchphrases is your stock in trade, and God forbid an original thought should ever enter your head. Ordinarily they are merely tedious, but "ain't cutting the mustard" gave me pause for thought in a way your other contributions never have, i.e at all. What on GGE does it mean? It's not exactly a mean feat to cut a bit of mustard, once you have opened the jar, and anyway cutting it isn't the required action, it's more a scooping and spreading sort of thing. What gives?
It's etymology is something of a mystery, much like why Nigel Clough is titled 'manager' despite not actually managing anything.
I would have thought that a dedicated pudding-decliner like yourself would at least have some knowledge on savoury matters, 666. You never fail to disappoint.
I would also argue that "etymology" is to do with the origins of individual words rather than phrases, and therefore not appropriate in this context. Then there is the perennial Achilles heel of the misplaced apostrophe.
Cut out the basic errors first, 666. Build from the back, as they say.
Achilles' Heel.
Trust this helps, Old Timer
The Quote = "Both were also at the club before Clough arrived, so I am uncertain what Clough deserves credit for here."
The facts = Hendrick joined in 2008 (just after Clough arrrived) and Hughes signed in 2011. But hey, lets not worry about a few facts.
So, onto other aspects of the posts to date:-
666 "You're not dealing with people who can appraise objectively; the likes of Peeder, Milf and especially Vidals cannot see any fault with He Who Is Named Clough" - tosh, as usual.
I am highly skilled in appraising characters and individual skill sets (its been part of my job for 25 years) and I have said time and again that he has many shortcomings but, on balance, like Vidals said earlier, he's doing a decent job. Not great but satisfactory if you look at the bigger picture.
I would agree that others would have done better and others again a lot worse. But I dont know who would fall into which bracket so its of no relevance now.
I've also said that I think he's had enough time to show genuine improvement and, by that, I mean in points earned not just pretty football.
If we dont get into the play offs this season at least, I am very likely to agree that we need a complete change or an addition to the set up, perhaps along the lines that Mostyn suggested.
Bush - "as I'm not aware its a secret that Clough rules by fear and what he says is final".
I think by this you mean that he does rule by fear and his word is final. In which case, you are wrong and right in the same sentence.
I dont believe that ruling by fear is in any way his way of doing things, unless you think that being brutally honest is scary. I heard Lee Clarke on talksport this morning explaining that he would have had no issue with Paolo di Canio's style whereas David Ginola said he would have hated it.
I havent heard Clough slagging a player off for "personal" reasons, only making comments about their footballing abilities (or lack of). At the end of the day, he is the boss so his word should be final. If they cant accept the high standards he expects, then get rid.
Personally, knowing Paolo as I do, whilst he is a great bloke, I wouldnt have wanted to work for him. But Clough is nowhere near that sort of character.
Not often I voice my opinion these days and without going over old ground everyone knows how I stand on NC. My concern is that if NC walks out which he will do if he gets stick from the crowd ( and lets face it the yanks will never sack him ) the next chap will be put under so much pressure from the NC happy clappers , folk on here don't agree now over manager and staff if NC goes it would be all out war.The NC supporters would not give the next chap a chance even if Sir Alex made a come back .We would be back to two managers a year, his name would not give him time.
I am desperate to get this joker out and his fat friends but I dont see a quick fix his five years of damage will take a change of owners and another five years to bring back the excitment of a proper english football club , things like players being sent off , staff falling out , players telling the manager to f off ,pitch like a ploughed field , manager bonking one of the players wives , midfield player taking someone into the stand with a three foot high tackle , goalkeeper upsetting the neighbours , director going to prison , club getting religated , club getting prommoted , trip to wembley ,paying out wages we cannot afford , signing a player from overseas ( Isle of wight does not count) , derby telegraph being honest and not in the pocket of NC , radio derby having knowledge of the game , Graham Richards voice , Colin Gibsons interviews , in fact all the things you expect from your club that we dont get now.We need the good times and we will take the bad times that come with it just to get us out of this stale boring middle of the road going nowhere club that NC and his mates have given us . We need excitment we need change we need uncertainty I am bored with what we have.
Not so, my pedantic chum. We aren't referring to the ACTUAL heel of Achilles in this instance, it's merely an expression, so the use of the possessive form is inappropriate. Think of it like a "Bunsen burner" not a "Bunsen's burner" if that helps. It's a common misconception though. The important thing is to try to learn from our mistakes.
I'm more of a lurker here than a contributor but felt the need to voice my opinion here...
Personally I think NC has done a good job in steadying the ship so to speak and has kept us reasonably competitive on a shoe-string budget.
However, I must agree that falling crowds and no real cause for optimism on the pitch season on season is beginning to get a bit tedious. If either the owners won't or can't back Derby with some proper investment then they need to go and the same applies to NC, if Derby don't make progress this season then he should step aside.
So Peeder, tell me when Nigel Clough joined as manager again He certainly didn't join in January 2008 as we were in the Premier league at that point!
Also, when I said Hughes was here before Clough, I meant in the academy, NOT his debut! But hey... carry on
We need more lurkers poking their heads over the hedges, maxjam, anything to dilute 666.
What's progress though? Few can agree on how it should be defined. Clough-haters define it as a little bit above what they think we might achieve, so they will still be able to say he should go, while Clough-lovers will trumpet the "behind the scenes" improvements. I greatly fear that this may be an argument which will reappear at some point in the future.
Mostyn - I stand corrected re Hendrick. Not sure about Hughes still though. Though he was playing for Mickleover Jubilee until 2011?
Anyway, at least Clough played them unlike many "better" managers who ship out anyone aged under 21 rather than take the gamble on them.
Yeah Peeder, but "quality players will come through the ranks regardless". This is why all clubs produce an identical amount of talent from within.
Do we still need managers?
They seem a bit outdated to me surely a non-hierarchical approach to the game should be introduced somewhere. Several coaches and then the players working out the strategies for themselves, a pair of eyes in the stands and you're good to go minus the big money manager.
Don't see why injured players aren't put to more use too in the coaching, opposition analysis, footballing theory and team building aspects of the game.
With a little training in mediation I'm sure you could have a team run on a consensus based model of working.
Valid point Wellies.We certainly have enough of us on here with a very deep understanding of the game to set up something along those lines. Possibly we haven't yet arrived at a complete consensus on some aspects though. More debate may be required to achieve this.
Peeder:
his criticism becomes personal when it is only applied to the players he doesn't count as friends. If he were to apply the same cynical disdain to all players when they have a 'mare rather than just the select few, then you could happily state that it isn't personal. Where criticism or not is determined by who the player is, then it's personal.
Okay, Poppet? Ok
Vidal - what's progress? Good question!
Like for like, excluding Reading (relegated) and Yeovil(promoted) in the 6 games we played last season and this so far, we have taken 8 points this season against 4 last season.
The 3 homes games last season saw us beat Leicester, draw v Blackburn and lose to Burnley. The Leicester result is the only change season on season.
return = -3 points.
Away, last season we lost to all of the 3 teams we have played again this year so 2 wins and a draw is a +7 points return.
Overall =+4 points, so an improvement on the like for like games of 0.66 points per game..
Last season we gleaned 9 points from the 6 games against the promoted teams and only 4 from the relgated teams. Overall, 13 points from a possible 36 (36%)
This season, 3 from possible 6 = 50%.
So, if (sorry, its a big IF!) we can somehow manage to carry on the current "like for like" form, we'll end up on 88 points.
Which happens to be the target I think we should be aiming for if we want to get automatic promotion!
Of course, its way to early for this to be anything other than a spurious defence of Nigel - I accept that. But then again, its does suggest some progress has been made.
Perhaps 666 could remind me and I'll review again in another 8 games time?
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the appraisal of Nigel debate...
Page 1 of 4
posted on 25/9/13
cont...
Those fans who back Clough have recently attempted to discredit the importance of tactics, and to some extent they’re correct. But it’s obvious that tactics do have a place in the “winning formula”, we have certainly been beaten by tactics! On the other side of the fence, us that aren’t happy with the current set-up can easily see the lack of nous on display, the inability to react to adversity and the naïve instructions which actually leave us more likely to concede when being more defensive!
As a Derby fan, my ambition for the club will always be to be entertaining and competitive, and in recent times, there’s certainly been no lack of incident. So why the feeling of such despondency in some of us? I think it’s seeing other managers do better in similar or worse situations. We can all point to the teams that have bigger budgets and expensively assembled squads, but there’s nothing we can do about that! I personally get depressed that there are plenty of managers who have that ‘magic touch’ that means they can create something special without spending millions. Over the years there’ve been loads of these. It’s obvious to me, that whilst Clough is steady, he has no ‘magic touch’, will never get the ‘winning formula’ and will always finish below both the managers with big budgets (aside of the odd exception), and below those managers with the magic touch.
I can see the good work Clough has done. But all I see now and the future, is Clough limiting Derby and holding the club back.
posted on 25/9/13
Bloody hell Mostyn, you need to get out more.
Afraid I stopped reading the tome after paragraph 1. My main defence of Clough is that it is doubtful that many people could have done better although undoubtedly some could, and almost certainly some could have done worse.
I also think it is a myth that his name keeps him in the job although I believe his name helped in get the job in the first place. Whenever his job has looked under pressure his team has always come up with a good result. Hopefully this trend will continue on Saturday.
Wish he would do something about the defence though, and quick. It has been the elephant in the room for Derby since the start of the previous season never mind this season.
posted on 25/9/13
Why even bother...?
You're not dealing with people who can appraise objectively; the likes of Peeder, Milf and especially Vidals cannot see any fault with He Who Is Named Clough, elevating him to some kind of modern deity status despite the burgeoning evidence to the contrary.
There's no point appealing to their better judgement; they have none. They cannot see beyong the surname and the 'legacy' strapline used to bring in an amateur manager in the first place. They are guilty of the same misplaced allegiance that Clough himself is, ie putting the man ahead of the club, just as Junior does with his pet players and fat mates.
It's stagnation. Sure, we didn't plummet through the leagues like one or two have after being relegated from the EPL but those are rare cases; these apologists will happily point to the successes of clubs who have spent little and achieved promotion and state categorically that they were 'exceptions to the rule' but cannot type 'Portsmouth' fast enough when it suits them. Of course, they also use the 'relegated clubs with parachute payments' argument as reason why we should be grateful for the mind-numbing mediocrity that Son Of has overseen for the past five years.. hypocritical much?!! "It's all too easy to get relegated again straight away; hurrah for Clough!" and "We can't expect to touch the relegated clubs because of their budget; hurrah for Clough!" often in the same paragraph.
The surefire way of stopping stagnation is to get a proper manager in. The amateur yes man and his pals just ain't cutting the mustard, and never have.
posted on 25/9/13
Quote 666
"You're not dealing with people who can appraise objectively; "
Does your company do self awareness courses? If so sign up for one.
posted on 25/9/13
Nothing there I disagree with and great analogy by the way
I can never see Clough appointing an experienced coach as I'm not aware its a secret that Clough rules by fear and what he says is final.
Im of the opinion that if Clough is given advice on a matter he wouldnt accept it and stick to what he knows out of blind Stubbornness
Derby will never be better than they currently are under Clough IMO but could possibly be worse under someone else. Would I trust GSE to appoint a decent manager? Probably not but If I could get Clough to go now I would as I have no enthusiasm left
The only concern I'd have GSE might give the job Andy Garner till the end of the season
posted on 25/9/13
I don't think he's done too bad really, all things considered. We always tend to be a bit negative after we've lost.
posted on 25/9/13
666
As we all know, regurgitation of the same old soundbites and catchphrases is your stock in trade, and God forbid an original thought should ever enter your head. Ordinarily they are merely tedious, but "ain't cutting the mustard" gave me pause for thought in a way your other contributions never have, i.e at all. What on GGE does it mean? It's not exactly a mean feat to cut a bit of mustard, once you have opened the jar, and anyway cutting it isn't the required action, it's more a scooping and spreading sort of thing. What gives?
posted on 25/9/13
It's etymology is something of a mystery, much like why Nigel Clough is titled 'manager' despite not actually managing anything.
posted on 25/9/13
I would have thought that a dedicated pudding-decliner like yourself would at least have some knowledge on savoury matters, 666. You never fail to disappoint.
posted on 25/9/13
I would also argue that "etymology" is to do with the origins of individual words rather than phrases, and therefore not appropriate in this context. Then there is the perennial Achilles heel of the misplaced apostrophe.
Cut out the basic errors first, 666. Build from the back, as they say.
posted on 25/9/13
Achilles' Heel.
Trust this helps, Old Timer
posted on 25/9/13
The Quote = "Both were also at the club before Clough arrived, so I am uncertain what Clough deserves credit for here."
The facts = Hendrick joined in 2008 (just after Clough arrrived) and Hughes signed in 2011. But hey, lets not worry about a few facts.
So, onto other aspects of the posts to date:-
666 "You're not dealing with people who can appraise objectively; the likes of Peeder, Milf and especially Vidals cannot see any fault with He Who Is Named Clough" - tosh, as usual.
I am highly skilled in appraising characters and individual skill sets (its been part of my job for 25 years) and I have said time and again that he has many shortcomings but, on balance, like Vidals said earlier, he's doing a decent job. Not great but satisfactory if you look at the bigger picture.
I would agree that others would have done better and others again a lot worse. But I dont know who would fall into which bracket so its of no relevance now.
I've also said that I think he's had enough time to show genuine improvement and, by that, I mean in points earned not just pretty football.
If we dont get into the play offs this season at least, I am very likely to agree that we need a complete change or an addition to the set up, perhaps along the lines that Mostyn suggested.
Bush - "as I'm not aware its a secret that Clough rules by fear and what he says is final".
I think by this you mean that he does rule by fear and his word is final. In which case, you are wrong and right in the same sentence.
I dont believe that ruling by fear is in any way his way of doing things, unless you think that being brutally honest is scary. I heard Lee Clarke on talksport this morning explaining that he would have had no issue with Paolo di Canio's style whereas David Ginola said he would have hated it.
I havent heard Clough slagging a player off for "personal" reasons, only making comments about their footballing abilities (or lack of). At the end of the day, he is the boss so his word should be final. If they cant accept the high standards he expects, then get rid.
Personally, knowing Paolo as I do, whilst he is a great bloke, I wouldnt have wanted to work for him. But Clough is nowhere near that sort of character.
posted on 25/9/13
Not often I voice my opinion these days and without going over old ground everyone knows how I stand on NC. My concern is that if NC walks out which he will do if he gets stick from the crowd ( and lets face it the yanks will never sack him ) the next chap will be put under so much pressure from the NC happy clappers , folk on here don't agree now over manager and staff if NC goes it would be all out war.The NC supporters would not give the next chap a chance even if Sir Alex made a come back .We would be back to two managers a year, his name would not give him time.
I am desperate to get this joker out and his fat friends but I dont see a quick fix his five years of damage will take a change of owners and another five years to bring back the excitment of a proper english football club , things like players being sent off , staff falling out , players telling the manager to f off ,pitch like a ploughed field , manager bonking one of the players wives , midfield player taking someone into the stand with a three foot high tackle , goalkeeper upsetting the neighbours , director going to prison , club getting religated , club getting prommoted , trip to wembley ,paying out wages we cannot afford , signing a player from overseas ( Isle of wight does not count) , derby telegraph being honest and not in the pocket of NC , radio derby having knowledge of the game , Graham Richards voice , Colin Gibsons interviews , in fact all the things you expect from your club that we dont get now.We need the good times and we will take the bad times that come with it just to get us out of this stale boring middle of the road going nowhere club that NC and his mates have given us . We need excitment we need change we need uncertainty I am bored with what we have.
posted on 25/9/13
Not so, my pedantic chum. We aren't referring to the ACTUAL heel of Achilles in this instance, it's merely an expression, so the use of the possessive form is inappropriate. Think of it like a "Bunsen burner" not a "Bunsen's burner" if that helps. It's a common misconception though. The important thing is to try to learn from our mistakes.
posted on 25/9/13
People don't half go on.
posted on 25/9/13
I'm more of a lurker here than a contributor but felt the need to voice my opinion here...
Personally I think NC has done a good job in steadying the ship so to speak and has kept us reasonably competitive on a shoe-string budget.
However, I must agree that falling crowds and no real cause for optimism on the pitch season on season is beginning to get a bit tedious. If either the owners won't or can't back Derby with some proper investment then they need to go and the same applies to NC, if Derby don't make progress this season then he should step aside.
posted on 25/9/13
So Peeder, tell me when Nigel Clough joined as manager again He certainly didn't join in January 2008 as we were in the Premier league at that point!
Also, when I said Hughes was here before Clough, I meant in the academy, NOT his debut! But hey... carry on
posted on 25/9/13
We need more lurkers poking their heads over the hedges, maxjam, anything to dilute 666.
What's progress though? Few can agree on how it should be defined. Clough-haters define it as a little bit above what they think we might achieve, so they will still be able to say he should go, while Clough-lovers will trumpet the "behind the scenes" improvements. I greatly fear that this may be an argument which will reappear at some point in the future.
posted on 25/9/13
Mostyn - I stand corrected re Hendrick. Not sure about Hughes still though. Though he was playing for Mickleover Jubilee until 2011?
Anyway, at least Clough played them unlike many "better" managers who ship out anyone aged under 21 rather than take the gamble on them.
posted on 25/9/13
Yeah Peeder, but "quality players will come through the ranks regardless". This is why all clubs produce an identical amount of talent from within.
posted on 25/9/13
Do we still need managers?
They seem a bit outdated to me surely a non-hierarchical approach to the game should be introduced somewhere. Several coaches and then the players working out the strategies for themselves, a pair of eyes in the stands and you're good to go minus the big money manager.
Don't see why injured players aren't put to more use too in the coaching, opposition analysis, footballing theory and team building aspects of the game.
posted on 25/9/13
With a little training in mediation I'm sure you could have a team run on a consensus based model of working.
posted on 25/9/13
Valid point Wellies.We certainly have enough of us on here with a very deep understanding of the game to set up something along those lines. Possibly we haven't yet arrived at a complete consensus on some aspects though. More debate may be required to achieve this.
posted on 25/9/13
Peeder:
his criticism becomes personal when it is only applied to the players he doesn't count as friends. If he were to apply the same cynical disdain to all players when they have a 'mare rather than just the select few, then you could happily state that it isn't personal. Where criticism or not is determined by who the player is, then it's personal.
Okay, Poppet? Ok
posted on 25/9/13
Vidal - what's progress? Good question!
Like for like, excluding Reading (relegated) and Yeovil(promoted) in the 6 games we played last season and this so far, we have taken 8 points this season against 4 last season.
The 3 homes games last season saw us beat Leicester, draw v Blackburn and lose to Burnley. The Leicester result is the only change season on season.
return = -3 points.
Away, last season we lost to all of the 3 teams we have played again this year so 2 wins and a draw is a +7 points return.
Overall =+4 points, so an improvement on the like for like games of 0.66 points per game..
Last season we gleaned 9 points from the 6 games against the promoted teams and only 4 from the relgated teams. Overall, 13 points from a possible 36 (36%)
This season, 3 from possible 6 = 50%.
So, if (sorry, its a big IF!) we can somehow manage to carry on the current "like for like" form, we'll end up on 88 points.
Which happens to be the target I think we should be aiming for if we want to get automatic promotion!
Of course, its way to early for this to be anything other than a spurious defence of Nigel - I accept that. But then again, its does suggest some progress has been made.
Perhaps 666 could remind me and I'll review again in another 8 games time?
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