Vettel and Kimi are the masters of tire conservation and this is where the likes of Hamilton and Massa lack.
========

The Lotus car is designed to be softer on its tyres than any car on the grid.

When the season started, Vettel was chewing up tyres and Alonso and Kimi were matching him until the tyres were changed.

The Mercedes also chews up its tyres. I appreciate the points you are trying to make but the premise is flawed.

If you are in clean air you can manage your tyres and when you lead from the front that happens as Vettel does. When he's in the field, he suffers the same degradation as everyone else.

If you think any formula 1 driver is not intelligent, I worry seriously about you.

I wouldn't classify Vettel as being very intelligent as he's constantly coached. I would say mentally he's very tough but he chucks his toys out of the pram like they all do when things aren't going their way.

In people's bids to big him up, they neglect so many flaws in his persona and make other drivers flaws seem worse, why is that?

Knowing your car is the best on the grid and all you need to do is keep it on the road and you will beat everyone makes life so much easier as you do not have to push like the others to extract the maximum from their packages

If you are in clean air you can manage your tyres and when you lead from the front that happens as Vettel does. When he's in the field, he suffers the same degradation as everyone else.

==========================

the mercs led races early in the season and their tyres went off faster than anyone's.

Tell us something we don't know

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24717889

2013 could have been a interesting championship but sadly it was made to easy for Vettel. You can't expect to see racing if you make it easier for Vettel and Red Bull

The key strength that Vettel has is that he is the “King of Rotation”. This strength was explained in an article by Gary Anderson in an edition of Autosport magazine published earlier this year. Regular readers of Autosport will therefore be familiar with that article. Anderson also stated that Hamilton was the “king of late braking”.

However, these strengths can also be a drivers Achilles heel if he can not get a car that is designed to take full advantage of that strength. When Hamilton moved to Mercedes he had problems adjusting to the brakes, not very useful for the “king of late braking”. Since 2010 Vettel has been able use exhaust blowing to improve downforce and enable him to use rotation to go faster through the corners. He will not be able to utilise that in 2014 due to the rule changes which everyone should be already familiar with. So 2014 might be a better year to judge his all-round abilities.

Vettel's weakness is his immaturity as a driver. He constantly needs to be coached by his race engineer. Rocky told him on at least two occasions not to go for fastest laps. After Webber retired from the race Vettel was informed of the potential problem but he ignored the advice at went for a fastest lap. That is just being stupid not clever at all. The race was in the bag and only a mechanical failure could prevent him from winning.

He will win the next 3 races barring any mechanical failure or failure to use common sense and obey the advice from Rocky.

Pirelli did warn us all but no one listened.

This season started so well but has become 2011 again.

It would be interesting to see how many points Webber's reliability and bad luck have cost him this season. I can think of at least 5 incidents where he would have finished on the podium or better and the championship would still be alive.

Seb's points alone would win the constructors championship and some think his car is not the fastest on the grid

What about Vettel's bad luck? He'd have won the championship even earlier had it not been for the failure in Silverstone. He's also had other issues like the KERS failure in Japan, but still managed to win the race. People don't notice when things go wrong for Vettel, because he doesn't let it affect him. "Luck" is a terrible excuse in F1, as people don't apply it consistently.

Also interesting people are saying it's the tyre change that helped Vettel. That may be true, but he's been on top of the Championship since the 2nd race. So he was still doing it even when the car wasn't performing as well. A mark of a truly great driver.

Are you suggesting that Vettel's bad luck is worse than Webber's?

Actually you will find that there are people who notice everything that happens, how it always seems to be Webbers car that has issues and all that jazz.

No one is taking anything away from Vettel but some of his 'fans' and I use that word loosely ignore everything else that happens and only scream, oh he's so great whilst knocking one out to their Vettel posters.

The guy is a good driver and has the benefit of having the fastest car on the grid and the support of his entire team even when he goes against team orders.

It is a great position to be in and he's maximised it. However as a result of this, there will always be question marks until he replicates similar form elsewhere.

No, I'm saying it's irrelevant. You can change the results of many races & championships if you apply "luck".
Vettel's retired from the lead 6 times over the past 4 seasons. Why does nobody mention that when they talk about "luck"?

To be honest, I'll never rate that Senna fellow until he wins the championship in a different team.

If only you read my post, I said similar form. It was quite clear Senna was special as he could drive the wheels off anything and is arguably one of the greatest.

Senna could do everything, like schumacher, lead from the front, drive through the field and took mediocre cars to places they had no right being consistently. Before you scream torro rosso, it was a redbull and the conditions helped and other teams and drivers have done the same in dry conditions.

Vettel is a good driver but because of the car advantage he only races against himself and the stopwatch as his team mate is not allowed to compete against him.

His team also ensures he gets mediocre team mates to ensure he gets no competition as they have turned down Raikkonen, Hamilton and Alonso. I wonder why

On one paragraph you criticise Red Bull for not allowing Webber to compete, and on the other you criticise them for only giving Vettel a mediocre team-mate. So which one is it?

Red Bull are being loyal to their young driver programme. As they should be, it already netted them the best driver on the grid. Why would they want Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen? Things are going brilliantly already, 4 DWC & CWC in a row. They don't need to "prove" anything to anybody.

Always seems to be a feeling amongst Vettel-deniers that the entire Red Bull empire is there to suit him.

WTCBU

interesting

---------- a 4 x world champion and all time great that needs to
" be constantly coached by his race engineer "

---- a race engineer that does not know how to drive the red bull race car simulator let alone any other type of race car is
---------- " constantly coaching" a 4 x world champion and all time great driver -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILkqZziXgyc

you could"nt make this stuff up

man unt devil

if webber is not allowed to compete against vettel , how has webber occasionally outqualified and beaten vettel in races in the past

Drunken Hobo (U7360) contradicts himself in his post.

“ Red Bull are being loyal to their young driver programme” Is that not favouritism.

I have invited members of this forum to reveal how long they have been watching F1 races and explain to the fellow forum members what impressed them about the ability of Vettel in the races they watched.

The only response that was posted was that Vettel speaks good English. Does that not say a lot about the ill informed know nothing numptie 4th rate amateur WUMS with ambitions to one day be promoted to 3rd rate WUMS?

I have been watching F1 since 1961. I am intelligent enough to form my own opinions based on what I witness on the race track. I don't need to desperately dash over to google or wiki to search for a popularity poll or interview given by somebody else.

But I think that if I relied on the 2011 view of a famous British racing diver I think the least I could do would be to spell his first name correctly. I think it takes a 5th rate amateur WUM to not be able to twig that mistake despite having it pointed out to him twice.

I have invited members of this forum to reveal how long they have been watching F1 races and explain to the fellow forum members what impressed them about the ability of Vettel in the races they watched.

====================================

you said vettel isn't in the top half of the drivers on the grid, you numpty . and then he won 4 straight world titles


"I have been watching F1 since 1961."
==============================

and yet you are the most clueless poster on the F1 board

I have written articles as well asking Vettel fans to bring me around to their way of thinking but no one has responded yet.

Most of them are gloryhunters who feel the need to attach themselves to someone who is winning. I've encountered some excellent Vettel fans on other forums and we have had excellent debates.

I've invited them to join this forum as well so we can have excellent discussions, hopefully they sign up. At least those ones know what they are talking about.

I have written articles as well asking Vettel fans to bring me around to their way of thinking but no one has responded yet.
=====================

you've also described vettel as "average" and not in the top 8 of the current drivers

If you judge the rest of the field by the way you judge Vettel, they still come out worse. So either Vettel is "average" in a sea of crap, or he's outstanding in a field of talent.

I still don't know how anyone can rate Hamilton and not Vettel. That's like rating The Buggles but not Michael Jackson.

I have never said, I do not rate Vettel. I have said, I do not think he's all that and a bag of chips and given ample reasons for my position.

You have another opportunity now to explain to me what makes Vettel great and better than Hamilton and Alonso.

Coulthard thinks they are the top 3 at the moment, I disagree because I believe the top 3 is Kimi, Hamilton and Alonso.

Now is your chance, explain to me why you believe Vettel is a supreme race car driver. Now's your chance.

Again, please note, I am not slating him, I just do not think he is as good as the others I have mentioned.

So, fire away, I'm all eyes

Youngest driver to score points, get on pole position and win a race - all before he joined Red Bull.
Youngest F1 champion, coming from 4th place & 25 points down with just 2 races to go to win it. 2 years he's had a dominant car he's dominated, 2 years where it was even he won it on final race. Ability to plough his way through the field when needed to, or run off into the distance when he can. Almost never makes a mistake, but a ruthless desire to win. And of course, a 4 time world champion. If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to see it. Something is blocking your vision...

And really bizarre thay you rate Hamilton ahead of Vettel. Quick over one lap but absolutely no racecraft. Nobody outside of the UK would have him in their top 3.

On one paragraph you criticise Red Bull for not allowing Webber to compete, and on the other you criticise them for only giving Vettel a mediocre team-mate. So which one is it?
------

The last time they let the mediocre team mate compete he was a botched pitstop away from winning the title. So if the mediocre guy can achieve that against the 'superstar' what does that make the 'superstar'?

So my point is valid, a mediocre guy is hired not to compete against the 'superstar' and if he does, he gets the treatment; I.e. Kers failures, gear box failures, alternator failures, wheel nuts not attached, strange strategies etc

Webber has made it clear that there's favouritism in the team on many occasions including last week but you guys know better, right?

Give me a break, Seb is great, right? Why did they turn down Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso. Surely he would beat them all with ease as he's the all so conquering one and it will help them win constructors titles, right?

"So my point is valid, a mediocre guy is hired not to compete against the 'superstar' and if he does, he gets the treatment; I.e. Kers failures, gear box failures, alternator failures, wheel nuts not attached, strange strategies etc"

Yeah man, Vettel also faked the Moon landing at Area 51 using alien technology to bring down the Twin Towers & control our minds for the New World Order.

You know you've lost the argument when you have to resort to conpiracy theories to justify your point.

Another pathetic attempt to deflect from the points raised. Here are the facts;

1) Webber was a botched pit stop away from the championship in 2010
2) RedBull have a number 1 and 2 driver policy
3) Webber's car always seems to suffer with reliability problems
4) Hamilton and Kimi were both rejected by RedBull
5) Seb get's protection as always - Webber
6) None of you so called 'fans' have been able to make a reasonable argument for the supposed greatness of Seb

WTCBU was right, you guys are just trolls with miniscule F1 knowledge.

It is interesting that you turned up when most of us filtered martial. Hmmm

Youngest driver to score points, get on pole position and win a race - all before he joined Red Bull.
==================
He did it in a Newey Designed RedBull masquerading as a Torro Rosso. He won a race in adverse weather conditions. It was a fluke, other drivers have done the same in the dry as well. Great achievement but when put in context it's not that special is it?

Youngest F1 champion, coming from 4th place & 25 points down with just 2 races to go to win it.
============================
The previous youngest F1 champion was Hamilton who beat a double world champion in his rookie season but according to you, he is useless

2 years he's had a dominant car he's dominated, 2 years where it was even he won it on final race.
====================
The RedBull has been the fastest car on the grid since mid 2009 but was plagued with reliability in 2009 and 2010. In 2010, Webber would have won the title but for a botched pitstop. In 2012 he had the fastest car on the grid from midseason towards the end. When it wasn't the fastest, he was crying on the radio asking rocky for help with overtaking.

Ability to plough his way through the field when needed
==========
Like in Abu Dhabi and Hungary, right? Or should that be plough into the field

or run off into the distance when he can.
=============
His car is faster than everyone elses, running off into the distance is not difficult. Come on man, surely you can do better than this. Button did the same but you slate him? If Button is useless according to people like you, so is Vettel. So which one is it?


Almost never makes a mistake, but a ruthless desire to win.
==============
You rarely make mistakes when you have the best car, it makes your job easy, see Nigel Mansell for instance. So you do not need to push to the absolute limit. His team constantly tell him to slow down as there's no need to go faster. Imagine how much pace he's got in hand.

And of course, a 4 time world champion. If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to see it. Something is blocking your vision...
=============
He is a 4 time world champion, a superb achievement but those titles have come with him racing against himself and a stop watch. Even Coulthard has said he needs to go elsewhere to eliminate all doubts. His team refusing to hire a competitive team mate highlights they are not confident in his ability to beat someone of equal or better talent. Someone who beat a double world champion for instance or 2 previous world champions.

And really bizarre that you rate Hamilton ahead of Vettel. Quick over one lap but absolutely no racecraft. Nobody outside of the UK would have him in their top 3.
====================
I do, a lot of people do as well including Alonso, Christian Horner, Niki Lauda, Button and Mercedes who broke the bank to get him. Hamilton is rated highly everywhere and has arguably the largest F1 fan base globally.

You have also said he has no race craft

Stop embarrassing yourself my good man

So in summary, you have not been able to explain what makes Vettel greater than Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton.

Since it is something so easy to do, it amazes me how you have failed to do it when given an opportunity again.

I'll help you since you aren't up to it;

1) Vettel is mentally tougher than Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi in my humble opinion
2) He is more ruthless than Hamilton and Kimi, not sure about Alonso because both Hamilton and Kimi are happy to race on equal terms with team mates unlike Vettel and Alonso
3) In the fastest car on the grid, Vettel is unbeatable, just like Jenson Button but you laugh at Button
4) He is an expert qualifier and only Hamilton is able to match and beat him in quali, no one else comes close. That is why some people call him the lapper.
5) He is able to respond to situations on track and drive according to plan for the most part and is not easily rattled when he's leading. Although he has been pushed to making mistakes by others
6) He can only improve on his current abilities so there will be greater things to come from him, unlike Alonso who is entering the twilight of his career.

See, I helped you. You can copy that and use when you engage in debate so people won't laugh at you.