I don't recall laughing at Button, I think he's a very good driver & underrated by many. I just said he wasn't on a par with Vettel, and he isn't.

You're putting way too much effort into this. And you know you're clutching at straws for Hamilton when you bring in fanbase & paycheque into it.
Vettel: 4 world titles.
Hamilton: 1 world title.

Deal with it.

You are welcome

Hamilton is rated highly everywhere
and has arguably the largest F1 fan base
globally.
--------
Kimi has the largest fan base in the world.

mudd
If Newey was that good which he is, then why did he go a decade without winning the constructors title?

There are many F1 discussion forums out there. Each one has positives and negatives.

I like JA606 but I doubt very much if there are more than 5 members on here that actually make any sensible contributions. To make a sensible and meaningful contribution then it is essential that you have an interest, a knowledge and an understanding of F1.

The openness of the forum enables any fool to post nonsense. The terms WUMS and trolls are not appropriate because those members are just plain stupid.

One of them can not spell a driver name correctly and another one declared that Monaco was low downforce. Neither of them have sussed out why they are wrong and continue to pop over and make a nuisance of themselves.

So Vettel is great because he is young and speaks English?

You 10 a penny numpties simply have no knowledge or understanding of the sport that you waste our time mouthing off about. You do not invest any of your time researching or studying the sport. Instead you spend 2 minutes dashing over to wiki and google without having the intellect to put the raw data into any context.

7 is better than 5?
5 is better thatn 4?
4 is better than 3?
3 is better than 2?
2 is better than 1?
1 is better than 0?

So jacques villeneuve was a better driver than his dad?

Max Chilton in his first year in F1 qualified for every race. Ayrton Senna in his first year failed to qualify for the 1984 San Marino GP. So Max is a better driver then?

I have two questions.

1. how long have you been watching F1 and what exactly have you seen that has impressed you about the racing ability of Vettel.
2. Vettel overtaking – Vettel was in 17th and at the halfway stage of the race was leading it. So how exactly did he achieve that? I want to know the car numbers of the cars he overtook, the lap number, the gap he was behind and the relative speed of his car compared to the speed of the car he overtook. I also want to know the details of the how old the tyres were of Vettel and the driver he brilliantly overtook.

All of that data is freely available to anyone that is actually genuinely interested in F1. That is why not a single one of you will be able to answer my questions.

I can tell you that Sebastian Vettel is a 4 time world champion. You don't get to be the 4th most successful F1 driver ever if you're not exceptional.

Vettel, best driver on the grid. Deal with it.
When you started watching F1 in 2007, you backed a one-hit wonder. Deal with it.

ha ha ha ha ----- WTCBU with his moronic infantile pathetic questions that he looks up himself and then asks other people for the answers and thinks he is clever -
------- what a flucking clown

hey WTCBU tell everybody how " vettel needs constantly coaching " by his engineer

an engineer that cannot even drive the race car simulator and has never raced any kind of single seater but is good enough to
" constantly coach " an all time great and 4 x world champion --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILkqZziXgyc
-------- you could"nt make this stuff up folks

So what is your response to my invitation to you to publicise your admiration for Vettel for his racing ability?

Nothing?

2007?

Have you have watched him and how he managed to overtake the slower cars?

Using Vettel's age to support your so called view is an extremely weak argument and quite frankly lacks credibility. Bringing into our debate 911 and moon landings is just childish.

Deal with it?

You are stupid.

mudd
If Newey was that good which he is, then why did he go a decade without winning the constructors title?
----

A variety of reasons Wayne, chief among them was Rory Byrne and Michael Schumacher another was the mass damper on Alonso's Renault but one of the main reasons was that some of Neweys cars were very unreliable. Kimi should be a double world champion too.

Kimi has a decent global fanbase but Hamilton has the largest. The simple reason is because of the way he drives, racing fans generally are drawn to racers and not time trialists. Since Hamilton entered into F1 the viewing figures went up massively because he was a breath of fresh air into the sport.

There are a couple of young guys in GP2 who if given the chance will have similar impact on the sport. I've been watching F1 for decades and Hamilton is one of the best overtakers I've seen, same with Kimi and Alonso. Even with poorer packages they manage to pull off sensational overtakes. That's why people loved Kobayashi as well.

Haven't seen stuff like that from Seb, maybe one day when he's not racing against himself and the stopwatch

"1. how long have you been watching F1"

=================================

you just don't get it do you ?

the fact that you have been watching F1 since 1961 does not mean that you are right.

you very clearly are not right. you said that vettel is "rubbish" and worse than average amongst the current drivers, and he then won 4 world titles in a row.

he has been called as good as senna by an engineer who worked with both of them, and he has been compared as equal to fangio by sterling moss.

there is no question of doubt amongst those in the know, that he is an all time great, and yet you continue to refuse to admit you were wrong to call him "rubbish". you refuse to admit you were wrong for describing him as worse than average amongst the current drivers. you refuse to admit that you are wrong for criticising others who have pointed out to you for so long, just how clueless you are.

your assessment is utterly and hopelessly clueless. the fact that you have been watching f1 for over 50 years just makes it worse. you have been watching for all that time, and you are still a (far far far) worse judge than almost anyone else with any kind of interest in the sport.

you are a numpty. a completely ignorant tool. your knowledge of F1 after 50 years is so embarassingly awful as to be cringeworthy.

you make alan partridge look like a respected sports journalist.

you make john mccririck look so normal that he should be hosting question time .

you make the person who got the £100 question wrong on 'who wants to be a millionaire', look like a genius.

you are not just the class dunce. you are the king of all dunces; the worst sporting pundit ever to exist; the most laughable 'expert' ever to exist.

it's long past time you packed it in. take up crosswords. take up walking. take up knitting. take up another language. whatever it is you can not be as bad at it as you are at talking about f1. whatever you do do, do us all a favour and please never offer a sporting opinion ever again

"Bringing into our debate 911 and moon landings is just childish."

I know, that was deliberate. I was mocking the idea that Red Bull deliberately sabotage Mark Webber's car. As I said earlier, if you have to resort to conspiracy theories you've lost the argument.

Always funny when the trolls themselves are the ones that start to get irate.

So can you explain my dear drunken friend why only one RedBull seems to suffer from technical problems? Sabotaging a car does not necessarily have to include leaving a spanner in it but not addressing an issue that needs addressing.

For example, last race, Seb's car had an issue with some parts of the gear box and the car was repaired. No one bothered to check what happened to Webber's and of course his car went bang.

How many failures has he had this season. Aren't both cars the same?

When you leave a racing team or are not favoured in a 'racing' team you get put on 'questionable' strategies and do not get as much 'support' as you would get, that's the way Alonso and Vettel like their teams run, so its not far fetched to suggest something untoward is going on.

I think Wayne made a comment about Massa saying he had improved now that the shackles have been taken off.

So even casual observers note these things. I would like to know though how only one redbull car constantly fails.

I've got someone on the inside who I asked and he denied it but I have my doubts.

I remember when I broke the news that Webber was leaving and our resident troll martial said I was lying when I said I've got a family member who works for redbull and he told me about it.

I'm not suggesting now that the person has the inside scoop on everything nor am I some bastion of redbull intelligence but I know a lot of things happening in the background with the team.

I've also been fortunate to visit their factory in Milton Keynes. Unfortunately I was unable to sabotage Seb's car. There's always next year though

No one bothered to check what happened to Webber's and of course his car went bang.
============================

oh ffs Manu.

Even if we entered into this fantasy that red bull want webber to break down every week allowing seb to win, do you not think that seb's engineer might be slightly interested in finding out what went wrong with mark's car ? fak's sake.

I have no doubt that the two Red Bull cars were identical when they left the factory. It is expensive enough to build two cars that are identical than to go to the extra expense of making one a dummy.

That is not where the differences exist. In F1 “attention to detail” is crucial to a successful campaign. This involves detailed checklists of checks that the mechanics have to perform to be confident that the car wont breakdown. They check everything in minute detail and change where possible suspect components. There is a limit to the amount of people you are allowed to take to each race. Does Vettel get the better people at Webber's expense? Are Vettels people more experienced and more diligent. Do they devote more time and effor to Vettel than Webber? A car can't fail as many times as Webber's without some explanation. In Korea Webber's car was practically destroyed by fire and the mechanics only had 3 days to repair it before Japan. Remember that there are no T cars these days. The team is allowed to bring one replacement tub and they have to give advance notice before it can be used. Do you think they pulled out all the stops to fix it at the expense of checking over Vettel's?

Another important aspect of being successful in sport is psychology. Vettel is obviously loved by his team maybe due to him having a better personality than Webber. But the fact is that the key man Helmut Marko loathes Webber and makes that clear to him whenever possible. F1 followers will be aware of the circumstances why Red Bull were forced to hire him in the first place.

In sport the fans like to see fair play and the general impression is that Webber gets a raw deal.

Have you also noticed that when Webber's front wing is damaged he goes faster and when Vettel's front wing is damaged he goes slower?

It's best not to engage them when it gets to this point. If they have to rely on fantasy to justify their position on Vettel, it's clear they haven't got a leg to stand on.

They've already made up their mind & nothing will change it. They're like creationists; they ignore the massive amounts of evidence & try to find gaps to justify their ludicrous position.

So instead of making sensible adult contributions to the thread you felt the need to resort to childish comments regarding Moon landings and 9/11. Now you have posted some childish response concerning the existence of god.

I note that you have been a member since 2011. So how come you haven't praised vettel before now? Surely an admirer of Vettel would have posted something about him in 2011, 2012 and during this season.

Can I assume from your contributions that you have not actually watched a race?

You should get JPB/noodles to explain to you why Red Bull got Webber as a driver. JP/noodles has been banned 4 times and was once barred from posting on the F1 section because he is just an uninformed nuisance. As a WUM he even gets ridiculed by other Spurs fans. Usually, intelligent people filter the WUM but in his case he has to filter the intelligent posters when he frequently makes a laughing stock himself.

Let me know what JPB/noodles tells you about Red Bull getting Webber as I never read his childish nonesense.

WTCBU

so now red bull purposely give webber sub standard mechanics to work on his car and helmut marko loathes webber and makes it clear to him whenever possible -

----------- oh so that is the secret of vettels success

Yep, all makes sense now. With such damning evidence, it has become clear to me that I was wrong about the 4-times World Champion. He truly is useless after all.

(I must point out I'm being sarcastic here, seems some people don't understand sarcasm).

It's amusing Mr Hobo refuses to debate points raised in debates but complains. What are you complaining about? You have been provided with opportunities to present your views but you run and then moan afterwards. Really childish.

On this very thread I have explained my issues with Vettel's perceived greatness. I have not insulted him or belittled him. Why not debate the points raised? I even gave you a cheat sheet to use as well.

WtCBU, hobo started posting a lot when martial got filtered so he's either a duplicate user or a cohort. I remember him from the old 606 as well. Another one who hates Hamilton for no discernable reason but cries when you point out the flaws in the driver he loves.

I like the OP, wayne, we debate a lot about stuff and he has the courage to present his views and in some cases, you can change his pov unlike some of the other 'special' posters

I've stated quite clearly why Vettel is a great driver. You're the one resorting to conspiracy theories in order to justify your position on Vettel. And seemingly you've even started to invent them about me!

Worrying.

I do not have a problem with sarcasm. When it is used intelligently it can be quite witty.

Unfortunately, some people confuse sarcasm with snide ill informed nonsense.

I don't have a problem with DrunkenHobo. I think that he is a genuine guy but he foolishly popped up on the F1 forum without understanding the sport. Now he has put himself in a difficult position. A position that he is now trying to squirm out of.

Drunken is definitely not Martial.

Martial is illiterate. He has the intellect of a 7 year old child and behaves like one. People have tried to reason with him and he just becomes more violent towards other members.

I have posted a few questions

How long have you watched Vettel?
What impressed you about him?

All I get in response

He speaks English
He is young

So how come I get no sensible answers apart from 9/11 and the existence of god?

Why are these Vettel admirers suddenly turning up to praise a driver that they have never watched?

Actually your points did not explain why Vettel was great at all.


If those are the things that make Vettel great in your eyes, I'm not sure you know what the word great means.

I have not resorted to conspiracy theories but have presented some facts for debate.

Dismissing them when they are valid queries highlights a cowardly approach to debate

WTCBU

tell everybody again how red bull sabotage webbers car , how red bull give webber sub standard mechanics ,
come on have the guts to debate with me about vettel let the forum watch me tear you and your infantile fairytales to shreds --

---------- as we both know you are to much of a coward to ever debate with anybody who can expose you for the hamilton infatuated clown you really are

now is your chance to show the forum you are not a gutless coward after all --

Judging by the contributions that have been made to this thread it would seem that Vettel's comprehension of English is far superior to the JA606 members that are pretending to praise him for being, in their opinion, “great”.

They appear to not be able to tell the difference between a “fact and an “opinion” nor the difference between a question and a statement.

I will help them out.

You can easily distinguish a question from a statement by looking at the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence. If the punctuation mark is “?” then that indicates that it is a question.

A fact has to be true otherwise it is not a fact. Whereas, an opinion can not be right or wrong. It is simply a personal view. Other people are entitled to their own opinions and if they disagree with others then that does not invalidate their opinion.

I issued an open invitation for people to reveal how long they have been watching Vettel race in F1 and what, during that time, has impressed them about his racing talents.

Sadly, the only two responses that where posted by the entire JA606 Vettel admirers were that he spoke English and he was young. Max Chilton speaks English and he is younger.