Or could look at things over the long term.........
Martinez took over Wigna when they were looking to fight relegation with limited funds. A few years later they are relegated.
Moyes took over Everton with limited funds when they were fighting relegation and ten or so years and took them to fighting for and getting Europe.
It is certainly annoying that top teams like Chelsea and City can loan really good players to teams like Everton so they can help take points off rivals. Personally i don't think you should be able to send out a player on loan to another pl team unless they are under 21.
Its getting to a point where City and Chelsea buy top players and just loan them out so make sure they do damage against rivals.
comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 2 minutes ago
Or could look at things over the long term.........
Martinez took over Wigna when they were looking to fight relegation with limited funds. A few years later they are relegated.
Moyes took over Everton with limited funds when they were fighting relegation and ten or so years and took them to fighting for and getting Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mate that's total bs. Ever season at Wigan Martinez had his top players sold off and he had to lower the wage bill loads as it was bloated during the previous years.
Everton might have been struggling early on in his years but Moyes was given money to spend contrary to what people think. He brought Fellaini for 15Mil and Mirales for around 8 Mil hardly chump change. There are other signing who cost abit but i cant be bothered looking it up.
Martinez has also won the fa cup with Wigan
I feel people are being a little harsh on Moyes, Everton were almost permanently stuck in the bottom half of the table when he took over and he made them a very decent premiership outfit.
Whether he can cut it at Utd is a different matter but he does deserve time.
BO$$
I have no issue with the odd loan or the fact that you can loan players to other PL teams. It worked for Welbeck and Cleverley. Welbeck scored in a 3 nil win over Chelsea when he was at Sunderland. I'd be a hypocrite if I agreed with this.
All I was alluding to is that Everton will need to spend money on players to replace the loan players who will eventually leave. Will Martinez's Everton look as good then?
No one complained when we loaned Jo from City...
So loans are only ok if the players are crap?
Total bs?
And Moyes didn't have to sell his best players? Graveson, Rooney, Arteta, Pienar, Lescott etc...... Moyes was able to spend the money he made.
Winning the FA Cup or staying in the Premier League? Look at Wigan now.
Who left their last club in a better position? Obviously Moyes.
Good article !
I want him to Play Jones at CB from now on whatever.
I don't want Young or Valencia picked and I want us to attack more. We may as well now anyhow. We need wins, draws are no good.
We all want more energy, dynamic play. I suspect Moyes does. The first 20 mins I thought were interesting. He tried Januzaj up top with Welbeck dropping back and we played a pressing game.
Obviously the goal changed everything and we don't have the players and energy to chase games as has been borne out this season when we have gone behind.
I think perhaps he should adopt the 4-2-3-1 fluid style where the front four all switch. Of course he needs to get the players in to do that. Why not offer 30M for Mata. He is a class player and would eb great for us.
MARLO
When watching Wigan last season and the previous season i always.thought Wigan played good football and were rather unlucky in quite a few games. Martinez likes to play good football and with better players the results look good. Moyes is a defensive manager first and lets face it his teams (Everton and United) play really poor football.
I don't like united but this guy is taking the pee with u lot. Aren't u forgetting these same players won you the pl just over 6months ago. They haven't miraculously all turned bad overnight. The tactics being employed by moyes is making the team look like.mugs.
Renegade
There u said it. Moyes wad able to spend the money he made. Martinez did not have that luxury. He had to wheel and deal to find players on the cheap and he still had them playing good football.
Boss.
Good points mate. I do agree but I feel a level of blame has to go to the players. Why should there be an excuse for lack of motivation when the players know what is at stake. To under-perform like how they are, I don't know how their pride could allow them to play so badly nevermind Moyes.
Football Bloodyhell.
I want him to adopt a fluid 4-2-3-1 too. I'd also like us to try for Mata. Why not?! Its criminal how he doesn't get in that Chelsea team.
comment by BO$$™ (U6401)
posted 3 minutes ago
Renegade
There u said it. Moyes wad able to spend the money he made. Martinez did not have that luxury. He had to wheel and deal to find players on the cheap and he still had them playing good football.
----------------------------------------
Football that was good enough for relegation.
In 2012/2013 Wigan made just over £2m and Everton spent just over £2m. In 2011/12 Wigan on net spent more than Everton, 18m of a difference actually. In 2010/2011 Everton made £4m, while Wigan on net spent just over 10m. In 2009/2010 Wigan made over 6m, Everton made over £4m.
So there you have it, while Martinez was at Wigan, he spent more and achieved far less than Moyes.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/premier-league/transferbilanz/wettbewerb_GB1_2012_default_default_default_alle_a_a.html
Moyes will have spent more on wages, but then he put Everton in the position to afford that.
* So there you have it, while Martinez was at Wigan, he spent more on net
Its help when u can have players.like Rooney, Lescott, Arteta ect to sell for quite large sums it helps make the books look good. Only player i can think of who was sold for quite abit at Wigan was Valencia to u guys.
I don't really care about united renagade. U seem to have some sort of crush on Moyes i hope he stays with u guys for a long time and makes u even worse.
End of the day u guys are Manchester United not some joke club like City and Chelsea who won the lottery. U guys deserve better than Moyes.
I'm not for a second defending Moyes at United, he's been far too poor. And personally think he doesn't sound like a United manager, far too negative and accepting of poor results. Not that I'm a United fan.
But this article is looking at the performance of the two managers over 6 months, which is a terrible idea for comparison really. Then you're describing my thoughts as total bs, when in actual fact what I have said is completely right. And ridiculous to say it helps having these players to sell, as he was the one that brought them all into the side and allowed to flourish. Can't defend Moyes at United but he got the job for a reason, for his success at Everton which is now being degraded by some, including you it seems, following his short spell at United.
When Lukaku and Barry return to their clubs at the end of the season and they Baines/Barkley are sold then we will then see how Martinez copes with replacing them and whether Martinez really is a good manager.
Fair play Renegade i still think Martinez would have been the better choice out of the 2.
If united were playing well under.Moyes and still losing i reckon the fans would be ok with that. The fact that there are play so poor and so negative is not helping moyes and is making more united fans turn on him.
"When Lukaku and Barry return to their clubs at the end of the season and they Baines/Barkley are sold then we will then see how Martinez copes with replacing them and whether Martinez really is a good manager."
You're counting on a lot of hypotheticals there, Barry won't be returning to City as his contract is up and assuming 2 players will go because you will it to happen is also wrong
Hypotheticals that are based on Everton's dealings in the past. Everton haven't been in a position to reject big offers for players under Moyes, why would they be able to resist them now? If offers come, I expect one of them to be sold myself.
I wasn't aware Barry's contract would be up but I don't for a second believe that Everton are currently paying 100% of his City wage.
Lukaku wont be at Everton next season, no doubt about that in my mind.
As far as I know we are paying all of Barry's wage as city didn't want to subsidise
We rejected united's bid for Baines in the summer we also resisted bids for rodwell a few years ago (before eventually selling when it became apparent he was a crock)
Also we are in a better position financially than we were in the past especially with the boost of tv money this year
Selling Rooney was necessary to keep the club a float and we also couldn't offer him champions league
Lescott forced a move so it was all about getting the best price possible (similar to Ronaldo and real)
Arteta wanted champions league football which we simply couldn't offer him
Everton will sign Barry in the summer, I'm sure of it.
I'm not sure I buy the loan player argument. Those players were available for any club, Martinez deserves credit for attracting them to Everton in the first place. Moyes did exactly the same at Everton with Landon Donovan.
In terms of Wigan, Whelan pulled the plug on the wages due to borrowing (and investing) so much to get them in the pl in the first place. It's why it's one of the very few occasions where a chairman is over the moon about a manager and singing his praises despite going down, that says all you need to know really.
The comparison between the two isn't a fair one for me though. The step up from managing a team like Everton to United is far greater and it is a completely different style of management, which a lot of people can struggle with.
How Martinez is doing shouldn't be used to denigrate Moyes basically. At the same time, his own achievements should not be cheapened either.
I think it is very short-sighted to compare the 2 after just 6 months. Moyes is struggling, and martinez has made a great start, but who knows where the 2 teams will end up, or what will happen over the coming years? We have seen so many teams similar to Everton over the years do well one season and then struggle the next, so whilst Martinez has made a great start, you have to see how he does long-term. He could turn out to be brilliant, but no-one knows for sure.
There are many doubts around Moyes at the moment, and whilst I thought we would struggle slightly whoever came in, it has been more than what is acceptable. That does not mean I want him kicked out, I am still prepared to give him time and see who comes in, and more importantly, I believe the board will do so also, no matter how many negative comments there are on here. It is only human nature that doubts over Moyes will increase with poor results, but that is the test for him of being Utd manager - he may be up to it, he may not be, but he will be given the time to show one way or the other.
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Moyes Versus Martinez.
Page 1 of 2
posted on 19/1/14
Great article
posted on 19/1/14
Thanks Robb
posted on 19/1/14
Or could look at things over the long term.........
Martinez took over Wigna when they were looking to fight relegation with limited funds. A few years later they are relegated.
Moyes took over Everton with limited funds when they were fighting relegation and ten or so years and took them to fighting for and getting Europe.
posted on 19/1/14
It is certainly annoying that top teams like Chelsea and City can loan really good players to teams like Everton so they can help take points off rivals. Personally i don't think you should be able to send out a player on loan to another pl team unless they are under 21.
Its getting to a point where City and Chelsea buy top players and just loan them out so make sure they do damage against rivals.
posted on 19/1/14
comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 2 minutes ago
Or could look at things over the long term.........
Martinez took over Wigna when they were looking to fight relegation with limited funds. A few years later they are relegated.
Moyes took over Everton with limited funds when they were fighting relegation and ten or so years and took them to fighting for and getting Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mate that's total bs. Ever season at Wigan Martinez had his top players sold off and he had to lower the wage bill loads as it was bloated during the previous years.
Everton might have been struggling early on in his years but Moyes was given money to spend contrary to what people think. He brought Fellaini for 15Mil and Mirales for around 8 Mil hardly chump change. There are other signing who cost abit but i cant be bothered looking it up.
Martinez has also won the fa cup with Wigan
posted on 19/1/14
I feel people are being a little harsh on Moyes, Everton were almost permanently stuck in the bottom half of the table when he took over and he made them a very decent premiership outfit.
Whether he can cut it at Utd is a different matter but he does deserve time.
posted on 19/1/14
BO$$
I have no issue with the odd loan or the fact that you can loan players to other PL teams. It worked for Welbeck and Cleverley. Welbeck scored in a 3 nil win over Chelsea when he was at Sunderland. I'd be a hypocrite if I agreed with this.
All I was alluding to is that Everton will need to spend money on players to replace the loan players who will eventually leave. Will Martinez's Everton look as good then?
posted on 19/1/14
No one complained when we loaned Jo from City...
posted on 19/1/14
Cos he is sh.it.
posted on 19/1/14
So loans are only ok if the players are crap?
posted on 19/1/14
Total bs?
And Moyes didn't have to sell his best players? Graveson, Rooney, Arteta, Pienar, Lescott etc...... Moyes was able to spend the money he made.
Winning the FA Cup or staying in the Premier League? Look at Wigan now.
Who left their last club in a better position? Obviously Moyes.
posted on 19/1/14
Good article !
I want him to Play Jones at CB from now on whatever.
I don't want Young or Valencia picked and I want us to attack more. We may as well now anyhow. We need wins, draws are no good.
We all want more energy, dynamic play. I suspect Moyes does. The first 20 mins I thought were interesting. He tried Januzaj up top with Welbeck dropping back and we played a pressing game.
Obviously the goal changed everything and we don't have the players and energy to chase games as has been borne out this season when we have gone behind.
I think perhaps he should adopt the 4-2-3-1 fluid style where the front four all switch. Of course he needs to get the players in to do that. Why not offer 30M for Mata. He is a class player and would eb great for us.
posted on 19/1/14
MARLO
When watching Wigan last season and the previous season i always.thought Wigan played good football and were rather unlucky in quite a few games. Martinez likes to play good football and with better players the results look good. Moyes is a defensive manager first and lets face it his teams (Everton and United) play really poor football.
I don't like united but this guy is taking the pee with u lot. Aren't u forgetting these same players won you the pl just over 6months ago. They haven't miraculously all turned bad overnight. The tactics being employed by moyes is making the team look like.mugs.
posted on 19/1/14
Renegade
There u said it. Moyes wad able to spend the money he made. Martinez did not have that luxury. He had to wheel and deal to find players on the cheap and he still had them playing good football.
posted on 19/1/14
Boss.
Good points mate. I do agree but I feel a level of blame has to go to the players. Why should there be an excuse for lack of motivation when the players know what is at stake. To under-perform like how they are, I don't know how their pride could allow them to play so badly nevermind Moyes.
Football Bloodyhell.
I want him to adopt a fluid 4-2-3-1 too. I'd also like us to try for Mata. Why not?! Its criminal how he doesn't get in that Chelsea team.
posted on 19/1/14
comment by BO$$™ (U6401)
posted 3 minutes ago
Renegade
There u said it. Moyes wad able to spend the money he made. Martinez did not have that luxury. He had to wheel and deal to find players on the cheap and he still had them playing good football.
----------------------------------------
Football that was good enough for relegation.
In 2012/2013 Wigan made just over £2m and Everton spent just over £2m. In 2011/12 Wigan on net spent more than Everton, 18m of a difference actually. In 2010/2011 Everton made £4m, while Wigan on net spent just over 10m. In 2009/2010 Wigan made over 6m, Everton made over £4m.
So there you have it, while Martinez was at Wigan, he spent more and achieved far less than Moyes.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/premier-league/transferbilanz/wettbewerb_GB1_2012_default_default_default_alle_a_a.html
Moyes will have spent more on wages, but then he put Everton in the position to afford that.
posted on 19/1/14
* So there you have it, while Martinez was at Wigan, he spent more on net
posted on 19/1/14
Its help when u can have players.like Rooney, Lescott, Arteta ect to sell for quite large sums it helps make the books look good. Only player i can think of who was sold for quite abit at Wigan was Valencia to u guys.
I don't really care about united renagade. U seem to have some sort of crush on Moyes i hope he stays with u guys for a long time and makes u even worse.
End of the day u guys are Manchester United not some joke club like City and Chelsea who won the lottery. U guys deserve better than Moyes.
posted on 19/1/14
I'm not for a second defending Moyes at United, he's been far too poor. And personally think he doesn't sound like a United manager, far too negative and accepting of poor results. Not that I'm a United fan.
But this article is looking at the performance of the two managers over 6 months, which is a terrible idea for comparison really. Then you're describing my thoughts as total bs, when in actual fact what I have said is completely right. And ridiculous to say it helps having these players to sell, as he was the one that brought them all into the side and allowed to flourish. Can't defend Moyes at United but he got the job for a reason, for his success at Everton which is now being degraded by some, including you it seems, following his short spell at United.
When Lukaku and Barry return to their clubs at the end of the season and they Baines/Barkley are sold then we will then see how Martinez copes with replacing them and whether Martinez really is a good manager.
posted on 19/1/14
Fair play Renegade i still think Martinez would have been the better choice out of the 2.
If united were playing well under.Moyes and still losing i reckon the fans would be ok with that. The fact that there are play so poor and so negative is not helping moyes and is making more united fans turn on him.
posted on 19/1/14
"When Lukaku and Barry return to their clubs at the end of the season and they Baines/Barkley are sold then we will then see how Martinez copes with replacing them and whether Martinez really is a good manager."
You're counting on a lot of hypotheticals there, Barry won't be returning to City as his contract is up and assuming 2 players will go because you will it to happen is also wrong
posted on 19/1/14
Hypotheticals that are based on Everton's dealings in the past. Everton haven't been in a position to reject big offers for players under Moyes, why would they be able to resist them now? If offers come, I expect one of them to be sold myself.
I wasn't aware Barry's contract would be up but I don't for a second believe that Everton are currently paying 100% of his City wage.
Lukaku wont be at Everton next season, no doubt about that in my mind.
posted on 19/1/14
As far as I know we are paying all of Barry's wage as city didn't want to subsidise
We rejected united's bid for Baines in the summer we also resisted bids for rodwell a few years ago (before eventually selling when it became apparent he was a crock)
Also we are in a better position financially than we were in the past especially with the boost of tv money this year
Selling Rooney was necessary to keep the club a float and we also couldn't offer him champions league
Lescott forced a move so it was all about getting the best price possible (similar to Ronaldo and real)
Arteta wanted champions league football which we simply couldn't offer him
posted on 19/1/14
Everton will sign Barry in the summer, I'm sure of it.
I'm not sure I buy the loan player argument. Those players were available for any club, Martinez deserves credit for attracting them to Everton in the first place. Moyes did exactly the same at Everton with Landon Donovan.
In terms of Wigan, Whelan pulled the plug on the wages due to borrowing (and investing) so much to get them in the pl in the first place. It's why it's one of the very few occasions where a chairman is over the moon about a manager and singing his praises despite going down, that says all you need to know really.
The comparison between the two isn't a fair one for me though. The step up from managing a team like Everton to United is far greater and it is a completely different style of management, which a lot of people can struggle with.
How Martinez is doing shouldn't be used to denigrate Moyes basically. At the same time, his own achievements should not be cheapened either.
posted on 19/1/14
I think it is very short-sighted to compare the 2 after just 6 months. Moyes is struggling, and martinez has made a great start, but who knows where the 2 teams will end up, or what will happen over the coming years? We have seen so many teams similar to Everton over the years do well one season and then struggle the next, so whilst Martinez has made a great start, you have to see how he does long-term. He could turn out to be brilliant, but no-one knows for sure.
There are many doubts around Moyes at the moment, and whilst I thought we would struggle slightly whoever came in, it has been more than what is acceptable. That does not mean I want him kicked out, I am still prepared to give him time and see who comes in, and more importantly, I believe the board will do so also, no matter how many negative comments there are on here. It is only human nature that doubts over Moyes will increase with poor results, but that is the test for him of being Utd manager - he may be up to it, he may not be, but he will be given the time to show one way or the other.
Page 1 of 2