Just tired of all the excuses the fans make. Would any of the other top teams collapse like us?
To go from being 7 Points in top of the league to only 5 points ahead of spurs is simply unacceptable for a club like ours.
you can only sign players if they are available Castor. ozil was and Wenger signed him even though he was not the highest priority. Wenger said that he will only go after top quality because it is amazingly difficult to get rid of players not up to the mark with ffp. thats good but it takes patience of the fans and I think the board and the manager have finally realised that the fans patience has run out.
There was a massive dash on the final day to sign Demba Ba in the summer and the likes of kalou and Klose in Jan.
exactly. Ba on loan or klose on loan. Their parent clubs only wanted to sell. Because of ffp you can't get rid of those mediocre players. They maybe better than giroud but still not good enough to win you a league title and then they block wages.
Do you live in Australia? Over here it is cold in winter, March brings warmer weather...
By March the damage is done. How about Dec/Jan and Feb?
Its not called an Annual collapse for nothing.
and who was talking about 'Johnny Foreigner'?
I'm talking about the entire Squad.
Men v Boys/ and Weak and 'no Fight' is often labelled at Arsenal over the years, and with due cause.
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
"Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available"
Nail on the head
comment by Castor Troy (U8700)
posted 10 minutes ago
"Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available"
Nail on the head
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's almost as if some clubs might not want to sell their best players. When this happens you might as well just walk away
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
Said that last week, but the usual suspects can't get that in their heads. It's almost as if someone has to come all the way to the Emirates, knock on the manager's door and say "Hey Arsene, I'm available, sign me up!"
Do you live in Australia? Over here it is cold in winter, March brings warmer weather...
By March the damage is done. How about Dec/Jan and Feb?
Its not called an Annual collapse for nothing.
-------------
Yes the damage was done. Second in the league, 1 point off the top.
The annual collapse last two seasons saw us win more points than most.
Stringer Bell, the man of many tired cliches.
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A players transfer fee often depends on their value to both the selling and buying club. You say over the oddsbut the reality is you have to pay enough to sign quality players who's clubs don't necessarily want to sell.
How many times have we kept cost low(ish) and ended up with utter dross? You say pay over the odds, some might say pay exactly the right amount because the signing is perfect for your club.
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
YES.
Title chance in January when we only needed one or two players.
Versus
This summer where Sagna probably will leave, Pod or Vermaelen might too, backups like Bendtner and Fabianski gone so we don't just need one or two, its about five minimum. AND the league table is reset. AND we might be fifth. But hey, at least we didn't 'Pay over the odds'
comment by Dr Cunni & Mr Lingus (U3072)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A players transfer fee often depends on their value to both the selling and buying club. You say over the oddsbut the reality is you have to pay enough to sign quality players who's clubs don't necessarily want to sell.
How many times have we kept cost low(ish) and ended up with utter dross? You say pay over the odds, some might say pay exactly the right amount because the signing is perfect for your club.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously that's exactly what I mean by 'over the odds'. Buying a top quality player in January, that is having a good season, is easily going to cost 50% on top of his 'normal' market value. And for what? An outside chance of maybe winning something? Would signing this top player have guaranteed no more injuries? If you're buying to replace injuries, what happens when they come back? You've now got two players on long (probably) contracts who can't both play.
Fact is you guys talk about "just" signing a couple of players, an outlay that could very easily exceed £30-40m for, probably, little or no return. Their purchase won't guarantee diddly. And that is how a modern club thinks.
Frankly we can't afford to do what Chelsea did with Torres, although these days nor can Chelsea. I'm sure they thought he was a "perfect signing" at the time too.
Maybe someone should just into the game editor and shorten the contracts, or just swap some players around.
You saw that twitter image that linked anything against Wenger to people playing football manager? Pathetic.
Considering we've needed a DM, a striker etc for ages, I don't see the major squad congestion you're thinking of if we'd signed in January. Especially when we have a lot of departures this summer anyway.
And taking of 'over valuing in January' I guarantee the AKBs excuse this summer will be "World Cup inflates prices".
Maybe someone should just into the game editor and shorten the contracts, or just swap some players around.
-----------------
I've never fully understood why clubs can so freely sack managers for under-performing yet players can get away with it and just see out their contract (Wayne Bridge, Bendtner etc.)
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
-------------------------
And the level matters a lot here. The clubs you can offer a lot of money to make the player available are pretty much still gambles.
I'll give you an example. Deigo Costa is one of the hottest properties in the market. And luckily enough he plays for a club who can be bullied into a move. Remember we failed to bully Liverpool who have not seen the Champions League for years but still had enough economic strength to keep Suarez. Now Costa is going to be a safer bet, not a safe bet because he has only just had a break out year. How many clubs are after his signature? Chelsea, Man City, maybe even a Monaco.
So you look at other clubs who can be bullied into moves. Draxler? £37.5m buy out clause for a player who has pretty much done nothing so far? Only potential?
Its not so easy. My beef with Wenger is the lack of his scouting. How on earth did he buy the likes of Podlski and Giroud? Where is the power, pace ethos that we used to rely on when buying players?
Fact of the matter I'd you don't rotate enough at the start of the season. For example, take United's greatest run towards a premier league in 2008/2009. In November of that year, they were lumbering around 6th/8th. Why? Because Fergie was rotating non stop during that period to make sure no one was burnt out.. This clearly worked. In United's last 25 games of the season they won 22 of those. Statistically one of the greatest concluding runs of a premier league ever.
Wenger doesn't do this. You always have these amazing starts (I remember during 2007-2009 you're opening few games were you winning 5-0+) but then your players get tired and start to fatigue.
Chambers raises a great point there. Remember at November ish we were concerned that some players were starting EVERY game? It's come to bite us in the bum.
Wenger doesn't do this.
--------------------
Wenger can't do this because we have too many useless players at Arsenal and the level of quality drops significantly. The biggest advantage of oil money and borrowed money in case of utd, is ability to pay off contracts and jettison players who are under performing. ffp is going to put a stop to that.
Remember we have been completely hamstrung in squad construction till Jan 2013 when the new sponsorship money kicked in. Before that we had to sell one player a season to balance the books. Something the media always conveniently over looked even after Wenger gave a big interview on it in 2009.
''Stringer Bell, the man of many tired cliches.''
as opposed to Unoriginal Arsenal Fan e.g D'Jeezuss, The Man of many tired Excuses.
What excuses have I given?
I said we lost to teams I expected us to lose to. Is that an excuse?
Maybe the team is being overtrained when at this time of the season, you shouldn't have to do a lot of training, just playing games and general tactical play. Arsenal have been known as a team that picks up hamstring injuries and maybe the training is responsible for the drop in form. Could be.
Its not so easy. My beef with Wenger is the lack of his scouting. How on earth did he buy the likes of Podlski and Giroud? Where is the power, pace ethos that we used to rely on when buying players?
====
Although I do understand what you're getting at, I think the real question is this - if Wenger signs players that don't conform to his preferred player type, why does he then try to hammer square pegs into round holes?
I know we had an argument over Giroud the other day, Jenius, and I'm hoping we don't get into that again - but if you sign a player like Giroud, who isn't especially quick, and who plays with an old-fashioned approach to centre-forward movement, you need to adapt your style of play to accommodate him (assuming you consider him first choice, which Wenger clearly does). You can't, however, expect him to play like Arsenal forwards of the recent past. He can't be expected to be multi-functional and rotate with other forwards, because that's not within his skill set.
"comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 34 minutes ago
You saw that twitter image that linked anything against Wenger to people playing football manager?Pathetic."
====
Nope. Not seen anything like that.
"Considering we've needed a DM, a striker etc for ages, I don't see the major squad congestion you're thinking of if we'd signed in January. Especially when we have a lot of departures this summer anyway."
====
Yep, and if you signed those players, which I agree we need - will it make a blind bit of difference to us being 4th/5th? Nope, probably not - we may have only lost 1-0 to Chelsea? And now you've blown a £30m-£60m hole in your budget for the year for no gain.
"And taking of 'over valuing in January' I guarantee the AKBs excuse this summer will be "World Cup inflates prices"."
====
I have no idea - both sides of the childish WOB/AKB thing tend to have ill thought out, paper thin arguments.
Sign in if you want to comment
A Question
Page 2 of 3
posted on 8/4/14
Just tired of all the excuses the fans make. Would any of the other top teams collapse like us?
To go from being 7 Points in top of the league to only 5 points ahead of spurs is simply unacceptable for a club like ours.
posted on 8/4/14
you can only sign players if they are available Castor. ozil was and Wenger signed him even though he was not the highest priority. Wenger said that he will only go after top quality because it is amazingly difficult to get rid of players not up to the mark with ffp. thats good but it takes patience of the fans and I think the board and the manager have finally realised that the fans patience has run out.
posted on 8/4/14
There was a massive dash on the final day to sign Demba Ba in the summer and the likes of kalou and Klose in Jan.
posted on 8/4/14
exactly. Ba on loan or klose on loan. Their parent clubs only wanted to sell. Because of ffp you can't get rid of those mediocre players. They maybe better than giroud but still not good enough to win you a league title and then they block wages.
posted on 8/4/14
Do you live in Australia? Over here it is cold in winter, March brings warmer weather...
By March the damage is done. How about Dec/Jan and Feb?
Its not called an Annual collapse for nothing.
and who was talking about 'Johnny Foreigner'?
I'm talking about the entire Squad.
Men v Boys/ and Weak and 'no Fight' is often labelled at Arsenal over the years, and with due cause.
posted on 8/4/14
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
posted on 8/4/14
"Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available"
Nail on the head
posted on 8/4/14
comment by Castor Troy (U8700)
posted 10 minutes ago
"Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available"
Nail on the head
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's almost as if some clubs might not want to sell their best players. When this happens you might as well just walk away
posted on 8/4/14
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
posted on 8/4/14
Said that last week, but the usual suspects can't get that in their heads. It's almost as if someone has to come all the way to the Emirates, knock on the manager's door and say "Hey Arsene, I'm available, sign me up!"
posted on 8/4/14
Do you live in Australia? Over here it is cold in winter, March brings warmer weather...
By March the damage is done. How about Dec/Jan and Feb?
Its not called an Annual collapse for nothing.
-------------
Yes the damage was done. Second in the league, 1 point off the top.
The annual collapse last two seasons saw us win more points than most.
Stringer Bell, the man of many tired cliches.
posted on 8/4/14
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A players transfer fee often depends on their value to both the selling and buying club. You say over the oddsbut the reality is you have to pay enough to sign quality players who's clubs don't necessarily want to sell.
How many times have we kept cost low(ish) and ended up with utter dross? You say pay over the odds, some might say pay exactly the right amount because the signing is perfect for your club.
posted on 8/4/14
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
YES.
Title chance in January when we only needed one or two players.
Versus
This summer where Sagna probably will leave, Pod or Vermaelen might too, backups like Bendtner and Fabianski gone so we don't just need one or two, its about five minimum. AND the league table is reset. AND we might be fifth. But hey, at least we didn't 'Pay over the odds'
posted on 8/4/14
comment by Dr Cunni & Mr Lingus (U3072)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 15 minutes ago
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would that work exactly? The only answer I can see is to pay over the odds - is that your answer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A players transfer fee often depends on their value to both the selling and buying club. You say over the oddsbut the reality is you have to pay enough to sign quality players who's clubs don't necessarily want to sell.
How many times have we kept cost low(ish) and ended up with utter dross? You say pay over the odds, some might say pay exactly the right amount because the signing is perfect for your club.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously that's exactly what I mean by 'over the odds'. Buying a top quality player in January, that is having a good season, is easily going to cost 50% on top of his 'normal' market value. And for what? An outside chance of maybe winning something? Would signing this top player have guaranteed no more injuries? If you're buying to replace injuries, what happens when they come back? You've now got two players on long (probably) contracts who can't both play.
Fact is you guys talk about "just" signing a couple of players, an outlay that could very easily exceed £30-40m for, probably, little or no return. Their purchase won't guarantee diddly. And that is how a modern club thinks.
Frankly we can't afford to do what Chelsea did with Torres, although these days nor can Chelsea. I'm sure they thought he was a "perfect signing" at the time too.
Maybe someone should just into the game editor and shorten the contracts, or just swap some players around.
posted on 8/4/14
You saw that twitter image that linked anything against Wenger to people playing football manager? Pathetic.
Considering we've needed a DM, a striker etc for ages, I don't see the major squad congestion you're thinking of if we'd signed in January. Especially when we have a lot of departures this summer anyway.
And taking of 'over valuing in January' I guarantee the AKBs excuse this summer will be "World Cup inflates prices".
posted on 8/4/14
Maybe someone should just into the game editor and shorten the contracts, or just swap some players around.
-----------------
I've never fully understood why clubs can so freely sack managers for under-performing yet players can get away with it and just see out their contract (Wayne Bridge, Bendtner etc.)
posted on 8/4/14
Top players aren't bought and sold only when they're 'available'. You have to MAKE them available.
-------------------------
And the level matters a lot here. The clubs you can offer a lot of money to make the player available are pretty much still gambles.
I'll give you an example. Deigo Costa is one of the hottest properties in the market. And luckily enough he plays for a club who can be bullied into a move. Remember we failed to bully Liverpool who have not seen the Champions League for years but still had enough economic strength to keep Suarez. Now Costa is going to be a safer bet, not a safe bet because he has only just had a break out year. How many clubs are after his signature? Chelsea, Man City, maybe even a Monaco.
So you look at other clubs who can be bullied into moves. Draxler? £37.5m buy out clause for a player who has pretty much done nothing so far? Only potential?
Its not so easy. My beef with Wenger is the lack of his scouting. How on earth did he buy the likes of Podlski and Giroud? Where is the power, pace ethos that we used to rely on when buying players?
posted on 8/4/14
Fact of the matter I'd you don't rotate enough at the start of the season. For example, take United's greatest run towards a premier league in 2008/2009. In November of that year, they were lumbering around 6th/8th. Why? Because Fergie was rotating non stop during that period to make sure no one was burnt out.. This clearly worked. In United's last 25 games of the season they won 22 of those. Statistically one of the greatest concluding runs of a premier league ever.
Wenger doesn't do this. You always have these amazing starts (I remember during 2007-2009 you're opening few games were you winning 5-0+) but then your players get tired and start to fatigue.
posted on 8/4/14
Chambers raises a great point there. Remember at November ish we were concerned that some players were starting EVERY game? It's come to bite us in the bum.
posted on 8/4/14
Wenger doesn't do this.
--------------------
Wenger can't do this because we have too many useless players at Arsenal and the level of quality drops significantly. The biggest advantage of oil money and borrowed money in case of utd, is ability to pay off contracts and jettison players who are under performing. ffp is going to put a stop to that.
Remember we have been completely hamstrung in squad construction till Jan 2013 when the new sponsorship money kicked in. Before that we had to sell one player a season to balance the books. Something the media always conveniently over looked even after Wenger gave a big interview on it in 2009.
posted on 8/4/14
''Stringer Bell, the man of many tired cliches.''
as opposed to Unoriginal Arsenal Fan e.g D'Jeezuss, The Man of many tired Excuses.
posted on 8/4/14
What excuses have I given?
I said we lost to teams I expected us to lose to. Is that an excuse?
posted on 8/4/14
Maybe the team is being overtrained when at this time of the season, you shouldn't have to do a lot of training, just playing games and general tactical play. Arsenal have been known as a team that picks up hamstring injuries and maybe the training is responsible for the drop in form. Could be.
posted on 8/4/14
Its not so easy. My beef with Wenger is the lack of his scouting. How on earth did he buy the likes of Podlski and Giroud? Where is the power, pace ethos that we used to rely on when buying players?
====
Although I do understand what you're getting at, I think the real question is this - if Wenger signs players that don't conform to his preferred player type, why does he then try to hammer square pegs into round holes?
I know we had an argument over Giroud the other day, Jenius, and I'm hoping we don't get into that again - but if you sign a player like Giroud, who isn't especially quick, and who plays with an old-fashioned approach to centre-forward movement, you need to adapt your style of play to accommodate him (assuming you consider him first choice, which Wenger clearly does). You can't, however, expect him to play like Arsenal forwards of the recent past. He can't be expected to be multi-functional and rotate with other forwards, because that's not within his skill set.
posted on 8/4/14
"comment by Penguin - We're gonna win the FA Cup...right...? (U13630)
posted 34 minutes ago
You saw that twitter image that linked anything against Wenger to people playing football manager?Pathetic."
====
Nope. Not seen anything like that.
"Considering we've needed a DM, a striker etc for ages, I don't see the major squad congestion you're thinking of if we'd signed in January. Especially when we have a lot of departures this summer anyway."
====
Yep, and if you signed those players, which I agree we need - will it make a blind bit of difference to us being 4th/5th? Nope, probably not - we may have only lost 1-0 to Chelsea? And now you've blown a £30m-£60m hole in your budget for the year for no gain.
"And taking of 'over valuing in January' I guarantee the AKBs excuse this summer will be "World Cup inflates prices"."
====
I have no idea - both sides of the childish WOB/AKB thing tend to have ill thought out, paper thin arguments.
Page 2 of 3