Quality thread by the way Kav

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Kav thats exactly what i felt. I think this is really demoralising and hurtful.
I dont know who to blame after this series loss. Although i would like to say bcci have to tale 90 percent of the blame. This team have been mentally done. Australia we will be burried in the ground. Not sure howwe will perform in the wc with this 2 major scars. If people think kohli will be fine in the odis, they are wrong. Dont think we have a confident team now.

Name me one ex-India captain or well known player that agrees with you guys on Dhoni? You won't find any. Because the majority (alongside with outsiders) see Dhoni in a different light. Batting has let you down, he led from the front. Ok, his captaincy isn't great, but look around you, how many true leaders do you see???

Misbah?
Cook?
Amla?
Matthews?

Hardly going to be granted an OBE for captaincy are there? Dhoni seems to be the scapegoat... Whilst he is responsible, the top 4 batsmen are 10 fold more responsible

And name me one Indian ex captain or player who doesn't have close links with the BCCI and hence refuses to criticise Dhoni. The likes of Ganguly, Dravid, Tendulkar would never dare having played with and under him. I'm sorry but this conversation has been done to the death now. I have watched this Test team for many years under this young side and also when we had the legends playing.

The common denominator in both sides has been Dhoni's ridiculous captaincy and decisions in Test cricket. Results do not lie - there is only a certain point up to which fans can accept. We were hammered 4-0 in 2011 to England, 4-0 to Australia that same year and since have gone on to lose series' to England again, South Africa, New Zealand and now this. I have no problems with the losses but it is the manner of the losses for which Dhoni is responsible. I am sure under a new captain we would perform with a lot more gut than we have done under Dhoni for half a decade now. Unfortunately there is suitable candidate.

Another factor is Dhoni's limited overs success which clouds many people's judgement. I'm sorry but being a great captain in limited overs cricket does not automatically make you one in Test cricket. The Indian media loves Dhoni to death as do I but I'm sorry if you cannot see his leadership decencies in Test cricket then you clearly don't watch India enough.

Also the likes of Bishan Singh Bedi and Kapil Dev - traditionalists who value the long format of the game simply aren't accepted by the BCCI. Instead when Bedi recently spoke out on Indian television about Dhoni his opinion was quickly shot down because many cannot see wrong with a world cup winning captain.

I will be a very sad person when Dhoni decides to hang up his gloves because he has served Indian cricket with a humility that not many have done and his record is phenomenal. However I won't shed a tear at a new Test captain being brought in because there's only one real word to describe India's test match performances under Dhoni - shít. He will in my book go down as the worst Indian Test captain of my lifetime and both results and stats prove that.

Agree that his 14 away losses from 28 tests doesn't look clever overall, but in this tour in particular it's absolute nonsense to say you lost because of captaincy. You weren't even close enough for Dhoni to have a strategy / game plan on the field to judge his captaincy, so most fans just don't buy that at all.... On top of that, he's the only one that's shown guts in the middle.... 3 reasons why you lost;

1) team selection- Dhoni has a say but not overall say so can't be blamed for that

2) Batting- can't see how Dhoni is blamed for that

3) catching - how many slip catches were dropped at crucial times? 9!!!

4) BCCI... Obsession with IPL doesn't allow for India players to play overseas.

But why deal with the real issues when you can have a go at Dhoni instead!

Nowhere in my comments have I said captaincy is the sole reason to blame for the loss. It has been and always will be a collective game however I can assure you Dhoni's acceptable grinding of runs in this series hasn't clouded over his poor captaincy or wicketkeepimg. It started from the first test where straight away the likes of Bhuvi were bowling 13 over spells in one go. Bhuvi's pace by the final test had dropped to mid 70's and the lad was shot for. In two tests Aaron also looked exhausted - why? Because Dhoni cannot utilise his bowlers in short spells and goes into his shell once we cannot get the full 10 wickets.

Also you said three reasons but gave four so let me break each one down for you. In terms of the team selection I can guarantee you with the power that Dhoni has it was his idiotic idea to play the 4 bowlers and not start Ashwin at Southampton as he doesn't trust any other support seamer aside from his main three. So yes I would say blame can be apportioned there.

The batting I agree has been abysmal and Dhoni cannot take blame for that. However there seems to be a clear lack of guidance and leadership even within the batting unit. Why did we go kamikaze on the third day of the fourth test match once Gambhir got out. We ended up losing 9 wickets in one session in one session and the next two days it rained heavily. No clear strategy or instructions so yes again blame should be apportioned onto Dhoni and Fletcher.

Your wicketkeeper is the one who exudes confidence in the slips. How many times did England look shaky when Prior had the gloves but when Buttler found his feet England's slip cordon look stable. Coincidence I think not. There were many times where Dhoni missed a stumping twice in one go if I remember correctly against Buttler. The odd drop catches are natural but as you say 9 is no coincidence. His wicketkeeping has been poor so again yes blame can be apportioned yet again on Dhoni.

As for the BCCI the less said about those idiots the better. The refusal to blood good pace bowlers and greed for money has meant too much time playing IPL than proper cricket. I hope this clears everything up because I can see that there is a lot more wrong with Indian Test Cricket than simply Dhoni's abysmal leadership but his losses as captain are no coincidence. It may sound harsh but there is no hidden agenda here. Until Indian fans don't wake up and smell the coffee about Dhoni being at the core of the problem we will not be able to move forward in Test Cricket. Call it harsh, scapegoating or whatever but having watched this team for years I can assure you this is the truth.

I think this is a little harsh on Dhoni, his batting was certainly a lot better than his teammates and was actually "captainly" (?!?!?).

He did seem a little short of ideas in the field, will grant you that.

As for the slip cordon, two things I think you have failed to mention, teams often miss catches when they are already losing in a match, look at England's slip catching last Ashes (Cook in particular). Secondly if you have already been in the field for a long time your concentration is not as high as it could be and you are more likely to miss catches.

Conversely, as Indian batsmen appeared to be ready to nick off at any moment this kept the English hungry and ready for the catch.

Harsh yet true in my book.

That is true to an extent but they dropped these catches after Lords where it was 1-0 in the series and they were hardly losing in fact I would say India outplayed England for long periods in the first two games. That is what makes the turnaround all the more unbelievable. Ultimately from looking like they could compete with England after Lords both our batsmen and bowlers turned into hapless donkeys and the performances almost defied belief at times.

Questiones need to be asked from the batsmen. Gambir/Shikar, Pujara and Kohli have let the team down massively.

In Kohli case it doesnt help when ur out of nick and them coming into bat after 4 overs after the top 3 fell.

Vijay started off well but then faded badly, Rahane did well and was also probably a victim of coming in after 10 overs with the score 20-4 ect. Dhoni was actually very good with the Bat.

What use is Jadeja in Test Cricket doesnt take many wickets or score many runs, 1 lucky innings does not make him an allrounder. Ashwin needed to be in from the 1st test. Hes a quality spinner but for some reason Dhoni doesnt trust him away from home and that really would knock a players confidence.

Now to the Bowler does again werent upto much after the lords test. Kumar is decent but lets be honest hes not going to trouble to many good players bowling at 75-80 mph on piches that dont do anything or dont swing. Ishant was good and Aaron is a good prospect. Whats happed to that Yadav bowler who was also very quick like aaron?

Catching was also diabolical and some of the chances werent even hard.

Listening to Shastri last night we could be seeing a number of India players playing county cricket next year although Gambhir did play for Essex last year and was abysmal for India.

The truth is on these track any sub cont side would have struggled. Sri Lanka got away with it as they took England on during some flat tracks. Anderson is unplayable when he gets his line right in these conditions.

where did you listen that kash? any links?

Infact, the contrast between Shastri and gavaskar is astonishing....

Shastri basically said, it's not a big deal because these guys are young and it was a new experience for them and they'll learn.. He didn't see too perturbed... Although he did say "England better watch when they come to India in 2 years".... To which mark butcher reminded him England won 2-1..

Gavaskar though was seething. Said if any of these guys don't have an appitite for tests, they should quit and not represent India in any format...

IMO atm India have bigger concerns than dhoni. We have seen when the team bowls well and bats well, India win. Im talking about home here. Outside India, we struggled to score 300+ in numerous innings and our bowlers were useless.

Dhoni isnt the best captain tactically, but the situation India have been in the past 3 years no captain could make a difference. The team given to dhoni this series was in a sense very poor. There was basically no replacements for the player 11 in case they failed and it was proven by Pankaj singhs and gambhir performance.

Batting is a major concern going to Australia and unlikely to be solved in this short gap but bowling is a concern as well. In australia we need bowlers that can hit the deck hard, unfortunately only Ishant fits in that bracket.

Need for the hour IMO is to sack this support staff. Get Ganguly to be our coach, dravid to be a batting consultant and someone like mcgrath as our bowling coach. This lot can help our bowlers and batsman prepare a plan of how to do well in different conditions.

To me when India bowls they never seem to have any plans. dont think we have a replacement for dhoni atm. It would be diabolical to give kohli captaincy when he is hardly settled in the side.

And lets not fool ourselves. This were the best set of batsmen and bowlers we had in the country. Shows its the structural issue of indian cricket and I just dont think we can do anything. If only difficult steps were taken after 8-0 debacle or even after we lost 4-0 to England.

butts were kicked...

end of...

Look at gambhir, he has not been able to come back from the 8-0 drubbing and will probably never. This is the damage I hope Pujara and Kohli dont get cause it would damaging to Indian cricket.

I agree with Gavaskar that we shouldnt play test cricket, or atleast not 4/5 test match series. We are just not good enough and its only going to hurt the players confidence. He has already openly said that India will get a 4-0 drubbing in Australia and really we shouldnt even bother playing tests for a couple of years and just stick to ODI's. In some sense I agree with him. test cricket is very demanding and we dont have a culture for this format anymore. Those days are gone where Indian players used to spend months in the county and improve themselves.

I wont be suprised in the next one year if BCCI decides to not take part in tests or atleast not play these 4 test series.

Its not just for India even the likes of Eng, they were completely destroyed by Australia and they had a real hard time until this series.

Yes Shashtri is basically BCCI. he would always in someway or another try to defend India's performances.

Gavaskar definately cares for Indian cricket and hence his assessments are always good to hear. I think if Indian cricket had been managed by someone like him and not Srinivasan, we would not be seeing such results

I don't get Pankaj Singh, looking at the guy i would expect him to bowl closer to 90mph the guy barely reach 85mph. India need fast bowlers and they need to stick with them.

Im talking about Aaron and Yadav who both bowl at 90mph. Just play these guys and lets them get used to test cricket (Unless India have another 90mph bowler hidden somehwere)

It also doesnt help with the fielders keep dropping catch after catch.

What do you guys make of the appointment of Ravi Shastri? Appointed today as "team director" for ODI series? I think BCCI setting him up to take charge full time

Well it seems as if I'm not the only one who feels Dhoni is at fault for a lot of the shambles after all like I've been continiously told on here.

http://bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/28768107

His time is up in the long format of the game and finally we can move forward from all these painful defeats.

Mahendra Singh Dhoni’s captaincy has also come under increasing scrutiny, with many former India players blaming him for the loss.

Dhoni, who survived after India suffered 4-0 losses in both England and Australia in 2011, has now lost 14 away Tests.

Dilip Vengsarkar, a former India captain and selector, feels he has not performed well enough. “Dhoni led the team poorly,” he told the Press Trust of India. “His selection policy, strategy, field-placing and bowling changes lacked common sense. He made some glaring mistakes match after match, for which India paid heavily.”
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seems as if former players have finally woken up and smelt the coffee. I've been harping on about it since the winter of 2012.

Shastri is pro Dhoni and I think Fletcher is in the firing line before Dhoni. However any changes are likely to happen after WC.

Duncan flecher is definately going to go after this series. He has basically been told by this move that you are not needed. The affairs is going to be shahstri responsibilities and the other coaching staff have been replaced.

Its a good move. Sanjay Banger is a really good coach and he has good credentials in the domestic and india a circuit. I think shashtri is short term move. Unless he decides he wants to carry on for full time role which I doubt.

I think after this series we should try to get ganguly and dravid as well. Atleast until the WC. Ganguly could help instil confidence and help dhoni in making strategies and dravid to help in batting and slip fielding. These 2 have good work ethics and they will make a big difference. Plus all indian players will respect these coached. I dont think anyone in the team even cares about Duncan flecher. they probably even dont understand English to be comfortable talking to him.

This team needs as many great minds as possible. Because this defeat as dhoni admitted has hurt their confidence. And we will need a big trunaround from our attitudes to even think about defending the WC and the australia tests.

The only thing about this is BCCI should have taken this call long time ago. flecher should have been sacked after 8-0 fiasco.

I dont think we can replace dhoni atm. We just dont have an alternative unless he decides he doesnt want to carry on.

I think after WC dhoni is probably going to retire from all forms of cricket. And thats the time I think we will need to sort out the captaincy issues. But from what I see of the players Ashwin can make a good test captain.

I mean the playing 11 all players are really fighting for their spots. One more bad test series against WI could mean we need to replace them.

There is no way on earth India will go In austrlia if Kohli and Pujara still dont score runs in India. Pujara more so because he has had 2 bad series already, against NZ and Eng.

Some exciting and interesting 3 months ahead in Indian cricket. especially when we are trying to make kohli and pujara the backbone of indian cricket and them failing miserably in the whole series.