Utd wont make top 4 imo:
Utd WONT make the top 4...reason? There are 4 teams with better squads, that simple.
People can go on about LFC rise from 7th to 2nd but they forget a very, very important point..in fact they comepletely dismiss it! Its the fact that Utd dropped out of the top 4 because they had a new manager(a poor manager), they obviously lost fergie off 25yrs and all that stability.
There is not ONE top 4 club from last season that is in the state Utd were in...not one! In fact, Liverpool are another year under BR and just strengthened every aspect of their squad bar a striker; but i am willing to bet one comes in b4 openiing game.
CFC, Arsenal all strengthened and City dont need strengthening really. So, how are utd going to topple those 4 clubs??? Dont mention europe, because every top 4 team has a squad for europe, plus its been proven games after CL the win rate goes up..not down.
7th tp 2nd is a very rare occurence, and people expect Utd to challenge for teh title or comfotably finish 4th? Wheres the evidence??
comment by Randomer (U5245)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by CurrentlyInChina84 (U11181)
posted 21 minutes ago
United won the league the year before. Dane set of players plus Fellaini finish 7th the year after. Think it is pretty obvious what the problems were.
You have had your best season under Rodgers but lost your world class player in Suarez. Different to compare. You have made some potential good buys but it will be interesting to see how you do this year. Personally think that the loss of Suarez will have an effect, how big is the question.
City and Chelsea are my favourites for the top two. 3rd-5th will between United, Arsenal and Liverpool. I think it is an advantage for us with less games (and hopefully less injuries). Think we will get into the top 4. Also it seems that the players are buying into LVG and his system, something not seen under Moyes.
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Also LvG is a better manager than Rodgers in the first place
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I think the words you're looking for is more experienced. To say he's better than Rodgers is lazy and thoughtless. The managers are at different ends of their careers, and it's far too early to compare the two.
Rogers is a good coach and people manager but I think is tactically outmatched by really top managers like LVG. Might improve over time but as is I think in the really big games he looks a little lost.
.........................................................................................
Arsenal away was probably the only occassion I can recall that he got it wrong from start to finish.
Yes Mourinho you could say out-foxed him as well at Anfield but that for me at least, had draw written all over it, until Gerrard's mistake. Thereafter we simply didn't have the creativity to break Chelsea down.
Other than that, he did pretty well in a few tight games & a few hammerings on our behalf.
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by FatJanMolby *I'm a boogie monster* (U4297)
posted 1 minute ago
Double standards from the Mancs is nothing new. In the early part of last season it wasn't Moyes fault. It was his old fashioned, fearful and negative football to blame. They blamed the players. The same players who finished 1st the season before. They were past it, or they weren't trying hard enough. They weren't good enough anymore. Moyes was chosen by Ferguson so he had to be the right man; it's all the players fault. They wanted to show that they were loyal and patient fans. They had digs at us for turning on Hodgson. So they wanted to show they were better than us. It didn't take long for it to change thought. Soon enough the knives were out, Moyes was to blame. Players were fine again. Mostly the same group of players under LVG will now go on to challenge for the league again.
-----------------------------
In summary, Moyes was given the benefit of the doubt and a chance to put his stamp on the team until it became painfully obvious that he wasn't the right man for the job.
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But while you gave him the benefit of the doubt (instead of actual support) you turned on the players. That's the point. If Moyes was going to be allowed to put his stamp on the team it was possible that results may be indifferent, but you turned on the very players who won the league only a season before. Instead of giving everyone support during a transitional period you had to find someone to blame. Only later was blame solely on Moyes. What about the players then? What about the players under LVG now? All good again?
Rogers is a good coach and people manager but I think is tactically outmatched by really top managers like LVG. Might improve over time but as is I think in the really big games he looks a little lost.
----
Well he would do wouldn't he? He's the youngest manager for Liverpool that I can remember. He will be on a learning curve at given times, as long as he progresses from that then we have no problem.
This situation cuts both ways. LVG has nothing left to learn as far as his style of management is concerned but he's still be found wanting with Holland and with Barca, so although a very good coach he has a limit to his ability.
Personally I am happy with a young manager and young team producing some very exciting football. Times have changed at Anfield we have to accept that but we can still make our mark.
I am looking forward to seeing how Liverpool cope without Suarez this season. I've heard posters say that they won games without Suarez in the side - which is a fact. And Liverpool will win games now that Suarez has gone. I do doubt however that Sturridge will get 20 goals this season, and I do doubt that Liverpool will score more than 100. I expect that Liverpool will tighten up at the back - play a more defensively-minded game (what I mean by that is more defensive than they played last season). The reason for that being because Suarez has now gone. And because of this reason, Sturridge won't get as many chances, hence why I feel he'll get nowhere near the top of the scoring charts.
No one should underestimate confidence. And the confidence that Liverpool players had last season, knowing Suarez was among them played a huge factor in Liverpool going very close to winning the league. Liverpool players will still be confident, but not to the same extent. They no longer have a player who has the ability to turn any game on its head, score, or create a goal from nothing. No longer do they have a player who can run up the pitch, with barely a sniff at goal, after the defence has been under constant pressure. And the opposition (who played Liverpool) knew that Liverpool had that kind of player that, no matter how much they would dominate LIverpool for a spell of the game, in a matter of moments, they could very well find themselves conceding a goal.
It's impossible to replace Suarez. Impossible to replace that kind of player. No matter how much is consequently spent on several players with the money that Liverpool received.
To be fair, kneerash, it's fairly standard procedure in the close-season for fans to go looking for reasons why their own team will do better, and their rivals will do worse.
DevonshireSpur used to specialise in it, writing long calculations all based on bogus logic, and ending up with Spurs doing much better than they ever actually did (then revising it to explain why), but it's fairly standard stuff in the close-season.
The evidence seems to suggest that we will miss Suarez more than Arsenal missed Henry, and less than Spurs missed Bale, but it's predictable that people will cling to the belief that the loss of Suarez will see us collapse. The bogus logic is just used to justify what is really wishful-thinking, but some of our fans do it, too.
There was a guy on the Arsenal board earlier arguing that Suarez wasn’t all that good until last season, when he suddenly became world-class and single-handedly propelled us from 7th to 2nd.
(Even though he came second in the PFA player of the year the previous season, and maybe would have come first if he hadn’t had a nibble on Ivanovic’s arm). In the end, I just left him to it, you can’t really argue with logic like that.
And that's when sombebody else isn't arguing that Suarez was a flat-track bully (because getting 2 assists, putting Sturridge through on the keeper, hitting the post from 25 yards, nutmegging Monreal, were all dealt with comfortably by Arsenal, and they ennsured he didn't score ).
One man's optimism is another man's delusion....I don't know why "delusion" is the number 1 insult on here, it's part of what being a football fan is.
I hope BR is the single most important key to our form, and there are plenty of valid reasons for thinking that he is, but none of us will know until the season's well under way...we’ve a number of new signings, so you can never be sure.
comment by TUX (U5315)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
Cara,
I think you put too much faith in BR tbh. He's still tactically naïve as he showed against Palace (not having a dig, honestly).
In that game, the 3pts were vital but he blew it chasing the goal difference! Bringing on VicMo when all he really had to do was shut up shop is a sign that he's still a tad 'green'.
I'm sure he's learnt from that though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You may not be having a dig but your certainly talking rubbish.
We finished second city first.
Add on the 2 points that were dropped against Palace and......... Oh look
We finish second city first.
What part of this don't you lot understand???
I think they'll get Arsenals place to be honest. Yes they have signed Sanchez (will he hit the ground running though?), but they also signed Debuchy, who is awful! They had a good defense last season, but Debuchy will give away free kicks in dangerous areas unlike Sagna did. Plus he is a liability for cards and therefore suspension. I'm sure I'll have some gooner telling me that it doesn't matter because Chambers is the next Cafu & Moore rolled into one (just like they did Jenkinson)
They were nearly caught out by Everton last season remember. Everton had it in their hands and lost it due to inexperience of the squad and manager. Utd have both a vastly experienced manager and squad.
LvG will have some learning to do, but Utd won't be as far away as they were last season. Rooney actually looked fit (not pied up as usual) in the game on Monday for the first preseason in god knows how long. His toughest task will be to stop Herrera getting suspended for kicking people.
No one should underestimate confidence. And the confidence that Liverpool players had last season, knowing Suarez was among them played a huge factor in Liverpool going very close to winning the league. Liverpool players will still be confident, but not to the same extent
------
Ripley
Top notch post and I agree entirely, what we are missing with Suarez is a talisman player who pulls the whole team together confidence wise. We have brought good players to the club but no one who can replicate the effect Luis did.
Having said that we have Sterling and Coutinho who could develop into such players and the whole team ethos has been set this way which shows a good team spirit which we will no doubt benefit from.
It's just a case if that's enough to compete with ready made teams like City, Chelsea and Arsenal.
Good post Wessie.
A lot can happen in regards to how we perform this season. As you say no-one can be sure how we'll cope in Suarez's absence.
Realisticaly I thnk we could end up anywhere between 3rd & possibly 6th if I was asked now, it will be very competitive you'd suspect. We are after-all in somehwat of a 'transitional' phase.
That said, it seems wishful thinking that we'll simply fall away from the business end of things.
Suarez will be missed, of course he will; however people dont see the other side of liverpools play, zuarez made liverpool very good, but liverpool also made suarez very good.
Sterling, gerrard and coutinho with sturridge and Hendersons pressing gave suarez the perfect platform to perform. We still have those players if im not mistaken and I would argue sterling was key to liverpool for the last few months not suarez, as was sturridge at the beginning.
Liverpool not only had suarez, but they also had coutinho, gerrard and sturridge......compare to spurs when they lost bale.
GB, stop listing players! You're nothing but the Panini of 606!
Don't know where the discussion has gone but this is in response the OP.
Its pretty simple really...
United with SAF = 1st
United with Moyes = 7th
United with LVG = ?
Probably something higher than 7th, an improvement.
Liverpool with Brendan and Suarez not on fire = 7th
Liverpool with Brendan and Suarez on fire = 2nd
Liverpool with Brendan = ?
Probably lower than 2nd, a worsening.
Most people expect United to be better, most people expect Liverpool to be worse. Liverpool lost the best player in the league last season, United loss is only really vidic considering Rio was poor last season anyway, Giggs barely played and Evra has been replaced with someone around his level.
I think thats the logic you were missing in your opening post....
If we're going by "logic" (which seems silly to me considering it's called a funny old game for a reason) then there is literally nothing to suggest we'll fall away because the only way you could measure it is by comparing games where he didn't play and we won loads of them.
That's not to say we'll do really well or do really badly but using logic in football is illogical in itself.
Wasn't it 5 games he missed in the league for you last season?
Pointless looking back on seasons prior to that as he was not in the kind of form that got you to 2nd.
Saw someone write it on another article so can't personally vouch for the stats...
60% win ratio without him
70% with.
The 5 games without him were fairly easy ones as well (yes, United under Moyes was an easy game)
Of course you can't predict anything with any certainty...
But there is a reason in all the discussions we have had that no one has mentioned Burnley for the top 4 or Burnley as potential challengers for the title... why?
Logic. We can using logic deduce possibilities, or at least almost every single person on this forum does regarding football, even though as you say we cannot know anything for sure...
Why can't I compare when the teams form has been the same since Jan 2013 and Suarez got 2nd in player of the year the season before. Basically you're being disingenuous and those stats are simply wrong.
At the end of the day if you're going to use logic, which is stupid, then everything points to LFC maintaining form. I'm not saying that will happen because logic does not apply to football.
The reason no-one mentions Burnley is because Burnley THE TEAM don;'t have very good players as far as I'm aware. If you want to use logic use the results from games which Suarez has not played in since we signed Coutinho and Sturridge as it was their arrival, not Luis', that signalled a sharp uo turn in results. This is true whether people like it or not I'm afraid.
Why can't I compare when the teams form has been the same since Jan 2013 and Suarez got 2nd in player of the year the season before. Basically you're being disingenuous and those stats are simply wrong.
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Suarez form this season has completely eclipsed his form in the previous season, no contest.
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At the end of the day if you're going to use logic, which is stupid, then everything points to LFC maintaining form. I'm not saying that will happen because logic does not apply to football.
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It is not stupid to use logic regarding football, otherwise there would be as many people tipping Burnley for the title as there City...
As you say this is because Burnley don't have very good players. Me and a lot of other people didn't see Burnley a lot last season... logic would dictate though....
That Burnley aren't going to win the title.
Also logically losing the best player in the league from the previous season is going to hurt you quite a bit.
Logically thinking, the fact none of his replacements have been anywhere near his quality mean your first XI isn't going to be as strong next season.
Logic would suggest Chelsea suffered without Drogba (back when he was good) but I have seen a Chelsea fan make a post regarding a better win percentage when he was out compared to when he was in.
".I'm not saying that will happen because logic does not apply to football."
Of course it does But like most things, logic is based on opinions and analysing historic events. You can make suppositions and theories, but no one knows until the end.
"At the end of the day if you're going to use logic, which is stupid, then everything points to LFC maintaining form"
In your opinion.
In my opinion, failing to adequately replace Suarez may well cost you the league. I think you will be able to challenge on four fronts, but without him I don't think you will have the penetration required. My opinion, of course - wouldn't be a huge surprise if you finished top.
Suarez form this season has completely eclipsed his form in the previous season, no contest.
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But it hasn't eclipse the teams with or without him. Didn't LFC get the 2nd most amounts of points last calender year? Logic suggests there is more to that than Suarez.
Isn't Studge the fastest scorer in LFC's history so far and doesn't he score more when Suarez is not in the team? Logic suggests that he will score more.
Don't we concede less goals when we don't play two strikers? Logic suggest that we'll concede less goals.
Don't we now have more options on the bench to change games? Logic suggest we'll pick up more points from subs.
Logic bollox. There is a difference between you picking the worst case scenarios and calling it logic to logic based on cold hard fact.
You can pick out little bits like that to try and make a case...
But for the first 5 PL games, the ones you were missing Suarez for...
You won 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, drew 2-2 and lost 1-0.
The games you won were pretty close as well, against United got an early goal and sat back. In your opening game conceded a penalty late on but the keeper saved it. They were also very winnable games for even an average Liverpool team, a Moyes led United, Stoke and Southampton at home with Villa and Swansea away.
Once Suarez came back and got into the groove you were a far better team.
As I have said before regarding Sturridge great goalscorer but not a great player (much like Hernandez.
only better)
So moving away from a few carefully selected stats in an attempt to paint a picture and back to logic...
Losing a world class talent without bringing in a world class replacement means a worse first XI, yes you have added depth but you have also added extra games to the fixture list.
By making your formation more defensive to concede less goals you will also likely score less goals, given the fact you have got rid of your best goalscorer and your defence is already quite porous doesn't add up to an improved Liverpool for me...
Maybe me and other opposition fans are crazy and Liverpool fans are the only logical ones though.
So I've used fact, which you've ignored (such as the form the previous season since we signed Sturridge and Coutinho) and then you've repeated yourself using "logic" that is actually conjecture on a subject that Chris H says does not mean anything?
Okay.
As said I'm not saying we'll do better or worse but you're not using logic at all. Logic suggests we'll be fine.
Logic suggests Sterling will continue to improve his end product.
So I've used fact, which you've ignored (such as the form the previous season since we signed Sturridge and Coutinho) and then you've repeated yourself using "logic" that is actually conjecture on a subject that Chris H says does not mean anything?
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You carefully selected a few stats that back your case, I made comments relating to them.
Chris did not say logic did not mean anything, neither did he say conjecture did not mean anything. What he said was you can make suppositions and theories but no one knows till the end...
Let me translate for you, you can use logic to help your predictions, you cannot predict anything for sure.
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As said I'm not saying we'll do better or worse but you're not using logic at all. Logic suggests we'll be fine.
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No it does not....
Logically losing your best player and buying nobody of his quality as a replacement makes the team worse.
Logically having European fixtures to contend with makes things more difficult.
The fact you scraped by in a few easy games without Suarez does not suggest you are a better team without Suarez... it suggest you were good enough to scrape by in a few easy games
Logic does suggest Sterling will improve... well done
Just feel free to ignore everything else logical because it does not suit your agenda
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Interesting thought process
Page 2 of 4
posted on 7/8/14
Utd wont make top 4 imo:
Utd WONT make the top 4...reason? There are 4 teams with better squads, that simple.
People can go on about LFC rise from 7th to 2nd but they forget a very, very important point..in fact they comepletely dismiss it! Its the fact that Utd dropped out of the top 4 because they had a new manager(a poor manager), they obviously lost fergie off 25yrs and all that stability.
There is not ONE top 4 club from last season that is in the state Utd were in...not one! In fact, Liverpool are another year under BR and just strengthened every aspect of their squad bar a striker; but i am willing to bet one comes in b4 openiing game.
CFC, Arsenal all strengthened and City dont need strengthening really. So, how are utd going to topple those 4 clubs??? Dont mention europe, because every top 4 team has a squad for europe, plus its been proven games after CL the win rate goes up..not down.
7th tp 2nd is a very rare occurence, and people expect Utd to challenge for teh title or comfotably finish 4th? Wheres the evidence??
posted on 7/8/14
GB
Gut feeling
posted on 7/8/14
comment by Randomer (U5245)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by CurrentlyInChina84 (U11181)
posted 21 minutes ago
United won the league the year before. Dane set of players plus Fellaini finish 7th the year after. Think it is pretty obvious what the problems were.
You have had your best season under Rodgers but lost your world class player in Suarez. Different to compare. You have made some potential good buys but it will be interesting to see how you do this year. Personally think that the loss of Suarez will have an effect, how big is the question.
City and Chelsea are my favourites for the top two. 3rd-5th will between United, Arsenal and Liverpool. I think it is an advantage for us with less games (and hopefully less injuries). Think we will get into the top 4. Also it seems that the players are buying into LVG and his system, something not seen under Moyes.
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Also LvG is a better manager than Rodgers in the first place
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I think the words you're looking for is more experienced. To say he's better than Rodgers is lazy and thoughtless. The managers are at different ends of their careers, and it's far too early to compare the two.
posted on 7/8/14
Rogers is a good coach and people manager but I think is tactically outmatched by really top managers like LVG. Might improve over time but as is I think in the really big games he looks a little lost.
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Arsenal away was probably the only occassion I can recall that he got it wrong from start to finish.
Yes Mourinho you could say out-foxed him as well at Anfield but that for me at least, had draw written all over it, until Gerrard's mistake. Thereafter we simply didn't have the creativity to break Chelsea down.
Other than that, he did pretty well in a few tight games & a few hammerings on our behalf.
posted on 7/8/14
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by FatJanMolby *I'm a boogie monster* (U4297)
posted 1 minute ago
Double standards from the Mancs is nothing new. In the early part of last season it wasn't Moyes fault. It was his old fashioned, fearful and negative football to blame. They blamed the players. The same players who finished 1st the season before. They were past it, or they weren't trying hard enough. They weren't good enough anymore. Moyes was chosen by Ferguson so he had to be the right man; it's all the players fault. They wanted to show that they were loyal and patient fans. They had digs at us for turning on Hodgson. So they wanted to show they were better than us. It didn't take long for it to change thought. Soon enough the knives were out, Moyes was to blame. Players were fine again. Mostly the same group of players under LVG will now go on to challenge for the league again.
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In summary, Moyes was given the benefit of the doubt and a chance to put his stamp on the team until it became painfully obvious that he wasn't the right man for the job.
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But while you gave him the benefit of the doubt (instead of actual support) you turned on the players. That's the point. If Moyes was going to be allowed to put his stamp on the team it was possible that results may be indifferent, but you turned on the very players who won the league only a season before. Instead of giving everyone support during a transitional period you had to find someone to blame. Only later was blame solely on Moyes. What about the players then? What about the players under LVG now? All good again?
posted on 7/8/14
Rogers is a good coach and people manager but I think is tactically outmatched by really top managers like LVG. Might improve over time but as is I think in the really big games he looks a little lost.
----
Well he would do wouldn't he? He's the youngest manager for Liverpool that I can remember. He will be on a learning curve at given times, as long as he progresses from that then we have no problem.
This situation cuts both ways. LVG has nothing left to learn as far as his style of management is concerned but he's still be found wanting with Holland and with Barca, so although a very good coach he has a limit to his ability.
Personally I am happy with a young manager and young team producing some very exciting football. Times have changed at Anfield we have to accept that but we can still make our mark.
posted on 7/8/14
I am looking forward to seeing how Liverpool cope without Suarez this season. I've heard posters say that they won games without Suarez in the side - which is a fact. And Liverpool will win games now that Suarez has gone. I do doubt however that Sturridge will get 20 goals this season, and I do doubt that Liverpool will score more than 100. I expect that Liverpool will tighten up at the back - play a more defensively-minded game (what I mean by that is more defensive than they played last season). The reason for that being because Suarez has now gone. And because of this reason, Sturridge won't get as many chances, hence why I feel he'll get nowhere near the top of the scoring charts.
No one should underestimate confidence. And the confidence that Liverpool players had last season, knowing Suarez was among them played a huge factor in Liverpool going very close to winning the league. Liverpool players will still be confident, but not to the same extent. They no longer have a player who has the ability to turn any game on its head, score, or create a goal from nothing. No longer do they have a player who can run up the pitch, with barely a sniff at goal, after the defence has been under constant pressure. And the opposition (who played Liverpool) knew that Liverpool had that kind of player that, no matter how much they would dominate LIverpool for a spell of the game, in a matter of moments, they could very well find themselves conceding a goal.
It's impossible to replace Suarez. Impossible to replace that kind of player. No matter how much is consequently spent on several players with the money that Liverpool received.
posted on 7/8/14
To be fair, kneerash, it's fairly standard procedure in the close-season for fans to go looking for reasons why their own team will do better, and their rivals will do worse.
DevonshireSpur used to specialise in it, writing long calculations all based on bogus logic, and ending up with Spurs doing much better than they ever actually did (then revising it to explain why), but it's fairly standard stuff in the close-season.
The evidence seems to suggest that we will miss Suarez more than Arsenal missed Henry, and less than Spurs missed Bale, but it's predictable that people will cling to the belief that the loss of Suarez will see us collapse. The bogus logic is just used to justify what is really wishful-thinking, but some of our fans do it, too.
There was a guy on the Arsenal board earlier arguing that Suarez wasn’t all that good until last season, when he suddenly became world-class and single-handedly propelled us from 7th to 2nd.
(Even though he came second in the PFA player of the year the previous season, and maybe would have come first if he hadn’t had a nibble on Ivanovic’s arm). In the end, I just left him to it, you can’t really argue with logic like that.
And that's when sombebody else isn't arguing that Suarez was a flat-track bully (because getting 2 assists, putting Sturridge through on the keeper, hitting the post from 25 yards, nutmegging Monreal, were all dealt with comfortably by Arsenal, and they ennsured he didn't score ).
One man's optimism is another man's delusion....I don't know why "delusion" is the number 1 insult on here, it's part of what being a football fan is.
I hope BR is the single most important key to our form, and there are plenty of valid reasons for thinking that he is, but none of us will know until the season's well under way...we’ve a number of new signings, so you can never be sure.
posted on 7/8/14
comment by TUX (U5315)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
Cara,
I think you put too much faith in BR tbh. He's still tactically naïve as he showed against Palace (not having a dig, honestly).
In that game, the 3pts were vital but he blew it chasing the goal difference! Bringing on VicMo when all he really had to do was shut up shop is a sign that he's still a tad 'green'.
I'm sure he's learnt from that though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You may not be having a dig but your certainly talking rubbish.
We finished second city first.
Add on the 2 points that were dropped against Palace and......... Oh look
We finish second city first.
What part of this don't you lot understand???
posted on 7/8/14
I think they'll get Arsenals place to be honest. Yes they have signed Sanchez (will he hit the ground running though?), but they also signed Debuchy, who is awful! They had a good defense last season, but Debuchy will give away free kicks in dangerous areas unlike Sagna did. Plus he is a liability for cards and therefore suspension. I'm sure I'll have some gooner telling me that it doesn't matter because Chambers is the next Cafu & Moore rolled into one (just like they did Jenkinson)
They were nearly caught out by Everton last season remember. Everton had it in their hands and lost it due to inexperience of the squad and manager. Utd have both a vastly experienced manager and squad.
LvG will have some learning to do, but Utd won't be as far away as they were last season. Rooney actually looked fit (not pied up as usual) in the game on Monday for the first preseason in god knows how long. His toughest task will be to stop Herrera getting suspended for kicking people.
posted on 7/8/14
No one should underestimate confidence. And the confidence that Liverpool players had last season, knowing Suarez was among them played a huge factor in Liverpool going very close to winning the league. Liverpool players will still be confident, but not to the same extent
------
Ripley
Top notch post and I agree entirely, what we are missing with Suarez is a talisman player who pulls the whole team together confidence wise. We have brought good players to the club but no one who can replicate the effect Luis did.
Having said that we have Sterling and Coutinho who could develop into such players and the whole team ethos has been set this way which shows a good team spirit which we will no doubt benefit from.
It's just a case if that's enough to compete with ready made teams like City, Chelsea and Arsenal.
posted on 7/8/14
Good post Wessie.
A lot can happen in regards to how we perform this season. As you say no-one can be sure how we'll cope in Suarez's absence.
Realisticaly I thnk we could end up anywhere between 3rd & possibly 6th if I was asked now, it will be very competitive you'd suspect. We are after-all in somehwat of a 'transitional' phase.
That said, it seems wishful thinking that we'll simply fall away from the business end of things.
posted on 7/8/14
Suarez will be missed, of course he will; however people dont see the other side of liverpools play, zuarez made liverpool very good, but liverpool also made suarez very good.
Sterling, gerrard and coutinho with sturridge and Hendersons pressing gave suarez the perfect platform to perform. We still have those players if im not mistaken and I would argue sterling was key to liverpool for the last few months not suarez, as was sturridge at the beginning.
Liverpool not only had suarez, but they also had coutinho, gerrard and sturridge......compare to spurs when they lost bale.
posted on 7/8/14
GB, stop listing players! You're nothing but the Panini of 606!
posted on 7/8/14
posted on 8/8/14
Don't know where the discussion has gone but this is in response the OP.
Its pretty simple really...
United with SAF = 1st
United with Moyes = 7th
United with LVG = ?
Probably something higher than 7th, an improvement.
Liverpool with Brendan and Suarez not on fire = 7th
Liverpool with Brendan and Suarez on fire = 2nd
Liverpool with Brendan = ?
Probably lower than 2nd, a worsening.
Most people expect United to be better, most people expect Liverpool to be worse. Liverpool lost the best player in the league last season, United loss is only really vidic considering Rio was poor last season anyway, Giggs barely played and Evra has been replaced with someone around his level.
I think thats the logic you were missing in your opening post....
posted on 8/8/14
If we're going by "logic" (which seems silly to me considering it's called a funny old game for a reason) then there is literally nothing to suggest we'll fall away because the only way you could measure it is by comparing games where he didn't play and we won loads of them.
That's not to say we'll do really well or do really badly but using logic in football is illogical in itself.
posted on 8/8/14
Wasn't it 5 games he missed in the league for you last season?
Pointless looking back on seasons prior to that as he was not in the kind of form that got you to 2nd.
Saw someone write it on another article so can't personally vouch for the stats...
60% win ratio without him
70% with.
The 5 games without him were fairly easy ones as well (yes, United under Moyes was an easy game)
Of course you can't predict anything with any certainty...
But there is a reason in all the discussions we have had that no one has mentioned Burnley for the top 4 or Burnley as potential challengers for the title... why?
Logic. We can using logic deduce possibilities, or at least almost every single person on this forum does regarding football, even though as you say we cannot know anything for sure...
posted on 8/8/14
Why can't I compare when the teams form has been the same since Jan 2013 and Suarez got 2nd in player of the year the season before. Basically you're being disingenuous and those stats are simply wrong.
At the end of the day if you're going to use logic, which is stupid, then everything points to LFC maintaining form. I'm not saying that will happen because logic does not apply to football.
The reason no-one mentions Burnley is because Burnley THE TEAM don;'t have very good players as far as I'm aware. If you want to use logic use the results from games which Suarez has not played in since we signed Coutinho and Sturridge as it was their arrival, not Luis', that signalled a sharp uo turn in results. This is true whether people like it or not I'm afraid.
posted on 8/8/14
Why can't I compare when the teams form has been the same since Jan 2013 and Suarez got 2nd in player of the year the season before. Basically you're being disingenuous and those stats are simply wrong.
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Suarez form this season has completely eclipsed his form in the previous season, no contest.
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At the end of the day if you're going to use logic, which is stupid, then everything points to LFC maintaining form. I'm not saying that will happen because logic does not apply to football.
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It is not stupid to use logic regarding football, otherwise there would be as many people tipping Burnley for the title as there City...
As you say this is because Burnley don't have very good players. Me and a lot of other people didn't see Burnley a lot last season... logic would dictate though....
That Burnley aren't going to win the title.
Also logically losing the best player in the league from the previous season is going to hurt you quite a bit.
Logically thinking, the fact none of his replacements have been anywhere near his quality mean your first XI isn't going to be as strong next season.
Logic would suggest Chelsea suffered without Drogba (back when he was good) but I have seen a Chelsea fan make a post regarding a better win percentage when he was out compared to when he was in.
posted on 8/8/14
".I'm not saying that will happen because logic does not apply to football."
Of course it does But like most things, logic is based on opinions and analysing historic events. You can make suppositions and theories, but no one knows until the end.
"At the end of the day if you're going to use logic, which is stupid, then everything points to LFC maintaining form"
In your opinion.
In my opinion, failing to adequately replace Suarez may well cost you the league. I think you will be able to challenge on four fronts, but without him I don't think you will have the penetration required. My opinion, of course - wouldn't be a huge surprise if you finished top.
posted on 8/8/14
Suarez form this season has completely eclipsed his form in the previous season, no contest.
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But it hasn't eclipse the teams with or without him. Didn't LFC get the 2nd most amounts of points last calender year? Logic suggests there is more to that than Suarez.
Isn't Studge the fastest scorer in LFC's history so far and doesn't he score more when Suarez is not in the team? Logic suggests that he will score more.
Don't we concede less goals when we don't play two strikers? Logic suggest that we'll concede less goals.
Don't we now have more options on the bench to change games? Logic suggest we'll pick up more points from subs.
Logic bollox. There is a difference between you picking the worst case scenarios and calling it logic to logic based on cold hard fact.
posted on 8/8/14
You can pick out little bits like that to try and make a case...
But for the first 5 PL games, the ones you were missing Suarez for...
You won 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, drew 2-2 and lost 1-0.
The games you won were pretty close as well, against United got an early goal and sat back. In your opening game conceded a penalty late on but the keeper saved it. They were also very winnable games for even an average Liverpool team, a Moyes led United, Stoke and Southampton at home with Villa and Swansea away.
Once Suarez came back and got into the groove you were a far better team.
As I have said before regarding Sturridge great goalscorer but not a great player (much like Hernandez.
only better)
So moving away from a few carefully selected stats in an attempt to paint a picture and back to logic...
Losing a world class talent without bringing in a world class replacement means a worse first XI, yes you have added depth but you have also added extra games to the fixture list.
By making your formation more defensive to concede less goals you will also likely score less goals, given the fact you have got rid of your best goalscorer and your defence is already quite porous doesn't add up to an improved Liverpool for me...
Maybe me and other opposition fans are crazy and Liverpool fans are the only logical ones though.
posted on 8/8/14
So I've used fact, which you've ignored (such as the form the previous season since we signed Sturridge and Coutinho) and then you've repeated yourself using "logic" that is actually conjecture on a subject that Chris H says does not mean anything?
Okay.
As said I'm not saying we'll do better or worse but you're not using logic at all. Logic suggests we'll be fine.
Logic suggests Sterling will continue to improve his end product.
posted on 8/8/14
So I've used fact, which you've ignored (such as the form the previous season since we signed Sturridge and Coutinho) and then you've repeated yourself using "logic" that is actually conjecture on a subject that Chris H says does not mean anything?
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You carefully selected a few stats that back your case, I made comments relating to them.
Chris did not say logic did not mean anything, neither did he say conjecture did not mean anything. What he said was you can make suppositions and theories but no one knows till the end...
Let me translate for you, you can use logic to help your predictions, you cannot predict anything for sure.
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As said I'm not saying we'll do better or worse but you're not using logic at all. Logic suggests we'll be fine.
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No it does not....
Logically losing your best player and buying nobody of his quality as a replacement makes the team worse.
Logically having European fixtures to contend with makes things more difficult.
The fact you scraped by in a few easy games without Suarez does not suggest you are a better team without Suarez... it suggest you were good enough to scrape by in a few easy games
Logic does suggest Sterling will improve... well done
Just feel free to ignore everything else logical because it does not suit your agenda
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