You may touch on some true points with this however it isn't that big a deal
Comparatively speaking.
In the UK there is more money due that isn't claimed than money going out fraudulently.
Which proves this isn't the main issue, regardless of how annoying it is seeing folk who can't be ersed working jetting off on holiday and having more luxuries than some working folk.
Disclaimer ; when I say can't be ersed working I refer only to those who can't, not everyone on the dole.
A yes vote might fix it as it's a clear sign of moving further right.
Socialist nationalists?
Tories
But it's not a lack of self worth; it's an entitlement culture. There's a culture of believing that the state owes them a living. It doesn't. If you can work, you should be made to work and contribute to society.
The state is there to help you in your hour of need, not as a lifestyle choice. The sooner the state is reformed, the better.
Independence should offer an opportunity to reform it encourage investment into Scotland and create more jobs. We will hopefully see more people in employment and a greater pride in ourselves and identity that will encourage and foster a nation that is no longer dependant on handouts and this culture of entitlement.
But I won't hold my breath. It's ingrained and in-bred into so many, it will always be there.
No doubt we will get lambasted for this opinion. But why should people who have not so tribute be allowed to play the system for so long ? Countries like Australia and the US wouldn't tolerate it. You get a fixed period of state benefits to help when you require it. That's how it should be.
If you genuinely need long term support then that should be covered by the system. But this is specifically about those who can contribute but have no intention to. And leach of the state shamelessly.
A vote yes is snoop reunite to reform the state in a manner that best suits the people of Scotland in a modern and progressive Scotland. Not one shackelled by the beaurocracy and inertia of a Westminster led government
*a vote yes is an opportunity
comment by 🍺 Original lauders 👌 The Real McKay 👌 (U9757)
posted 3 minutes ago
You may touch on some true points with this however it isn't that big a deal
Comparatively speaking.
In the UK there is more money due that isn't claimed than money going out fraudulently.
Which proves this isn't the main issue, regardless of how annoying it is seeing folk who can't be ersed working jetting off on holiday and having more luxuries than some working folk.
Disclaimer ; when I say can't be ersed working I refer only to those who can't, not everyone on the dole.
A yes vote might fix it as it's a clear sign of moving further right.
Socialist nationalists?
Tories
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thant doesn't make the fraud either acceptable or insignificant. It's not about comparisons but absolutes. Fraud costs billions of pounds per year. Money that could be invested in infrastructure, doctors, nurses, schools.
Where would you rather see this money spent ? On someone takin the pîss or on your local community and children's future ?
The "bigger" fraud doesnt make feigning illness ok!
Some people need a moral compass! Where is their self worth? Why do people not strive to achieve anything?
Answer - because the state makes it easy for them not to!
I want arguing that it's ok
Just that if you got rid of it (which we won't) we wouldn't be left with a utopia
comment by Mick Dee - War Came; War Saw; War Cöcked ... (U14135)
posted 28 minutes ago
There is a flaw in your argument.
What you are saying may work in America, but there is a class system in the UK.
Having a successful life has more to do with who your family are and what post code you grew up in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bùllshît. Don't use that as an excuse for someone's failure. Noe of us were born with a silver spoon or privately educated (Ginger excepted
Most of us went to state schools. And those upof us that work or have achieved anything world bloody hard to achieve despite the system and standard of education.
The opportunity is there for all. You either take it, and make the effort to improve your lot or you don't. The choice is theirs but don't blame others for their lack of application and motivation
I went to school with a lot of wasters who were intent on doing nothing. Sitting on their erses and destined for a life on the dole. Equally I had a,to of class mates who applied themselves and achieved. We all had the same opportunity. Some took it. Some didn't.
FFS Mick, do you still live downstairs with the servants?
You are a product of your own will and ambition! To blame a class system is pathetic!
Heres the thing - if your "fairer" society comes in and benefits are increased this will result in what? Let me tell you: a flood of other "dont wanna work" people crossing your border and making claims for these benefits. You see the more you give the more people who want! Then you have created not a fairer society but a very quickly bankrupt society
no one is disputing that you should work to have your place in society. but the sanctions imposed on people who are actually looking for work, just because there aren't enough jobs to go around and then forcing these people to go to food banks, is unacceptable. you can't just use the sweeping statement that every person out of work is a sponger. I've had periods out of work due to redundancy and it's not easy and that was years ago. now the system is just trying to make it such a nasty experience that people will take any job going so they can survive.
plus I find the threat by the tories that they'll bin the human rights act extremely disturbing.
maybe you do work hard for a living. I certainly do. but I find a lot of snobbery, ignorance and 'I'm alright jack' with these sweeping generalisations
" I find a lot of snobbery, ignorance and 'I'm alright jack' with these sweeping generalisations"
rats
Nobody would ever criticise someone ou of work wanting to get back into work. I too have been on the wrong end of redundancy. I know it's not much fun.
People in such circumstances should be supported and given all the help required to obtain suitable emoyment for their skills.
I totally agree that they shouldn't be made to just fill an position. The best use of their skills and experience is paramount.
But that is not the point of this op. It's about the wasters who have never comtributed and have no intention to contribute. Those that make a conscious section to do nothing and expect te state to finance their inaction.
Soete be clear about the differences between the various people on JSA or unemployment benefit.
There are those who need and are entitled to help. And thee are those who bed a kick Up the àrse
I think when we talk about a fairer society, we mean a society where we can have a bit more control overall. Thus allowing us as Scottish voters to have a direct impact on whats happening in our own country. At the moment, when we vote in a general election, it has no impact and we are having to live in a country where other people are basically deciding our fate. For me thats unfair.
Also, Scottish Taxpayers pay more per head than the rest of the UK, yet we are made out to be scroungers and living off of England, which is not the case. Yes we have issues with welfare, but so does the rest of the country. But surely we have to look after people who are too unwell to work? At the moment people who are crippled, going through cancer, suffering from chronic health conditions are being told they are not "unwell" enough to receive benefit.
I like anyone else can't guarantee that independence is the answer, but surely we are giving ourselves a better chance to thrive, by having the control to change the things we want to in this country.
LMC - I would love to take your views seriously but I do not believe you women should even have a vote. If you would all look after the children as your mum and her mum before her did rather than push on with "im entitled to a job" mentality the kids would be brought up in a more favourable environment and the world would be a better place. Leave the working girl jobs to the ugly spinsters that cannot find a man
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
No one is disagreeing that there are people who kick the erse out of it, but under the present system people who are actually looking for work are being penalised through sanctions that are very plainly put in place just so we can get the bill down. It's all about the numbers and not about the people. You're never going to stop some people being lazy, but the present system does not work and being people are being harassed, bullied, sanctioned and starved. I'll say it again the present system is about getting the bill down and is more about numbers than people.
Again I'll say the proposed scrapping of the Human Rights Act in Britain is extremely worrying. The tories say it's because of one rule to do with immigration. Given what is happening to the NHS and the unemployed I'm finding this very sinister and extremely worrying.
i don't think there will ever be an ideal solution because there will always be people out there who want to work the system, and I agree that central Scotland needs to get back to work, but the way things are going under the current system is alarming and there has to be a better way to reform. Starving people due to unfair sanctions is not the way.
I'm pretty certain we will all agree that the chance to look after all of our own affairs is the number one goal of this whole independence movement.
What this means to create a fairer society is the creation of a written constitution, a bill of rights for any human living in this country. This is a number one priority in a civilised democracy.
Increasing public spending while promoting free trade is paramount in a social democracy, not only does this encourage innovation in the private sector through lower cost to market but it also means that there are more jobs in the public sector to manage increase in public spending and the subsequent increase in public services.
The creation of jobs is the number one way to spread the wealth of a nation and close the gap between rich and poor. The culture of welfare begging would then naturally reduce generation on generation. Add to that the recreation of trade unions and labour market institutions to promote job security through negotiated terms further increases a sense of fairness in society as a whole.
Trade Unions Falkirk debacle lets you see unions are not to be trusted. Grangemouth is obviously linked.
Increasing public spending? Cmon we don't get value for money from these charlatans as it is without spending more on their penpushing/papershuffling mentality!
A bill of rights for any human JUSTIFIABLY in this country within reason!
Im more concerned with people grasping the mettle and attempting to better themselves with out the need to hold their hands and finance them through it!
LMC - I would love to take your views seriously but I do not believe you women should even have a vote.
------------------------------------------------------------
Super Ally, your short sighted attitude is mind blowing. You don't see the bigger picture because you are blinded by your own self-worth and generalise about stuff due to a severe lack of understanding and nit-picking on a few negative examples. You are entitled to your opinion of course but trade unions generally have a positive impact actually, rather than your tiny sample of negativity, and, anyway, it is ones right to become a member or not, to not have the option or to dilute people power to the point where membership means nothing most definitely is not right.
A written constitution is for the citizens of a country, everyone knows that so there is no need to point it out as if by scoring some point.
As for your final point, society is about co-operation, humans have evolved beyond survival of the fittest which is what separates us from the rest of the animal world. You can regress back to your Neolithic roots if you so desire, just don't drag the rest of us down with you.
society is about co-operation - well maybe some should cooperate and get off their erchies and find gainful employment!
Its apologetic attitudes like yours that allow these people to consider themselves hard done by!
Rats Juice
I agree, which is why a vote for independence is an opportunity to reform the system to make it work better and fairer. A system for the people of Scotland by the people of Scotland. Not some "one size fits all" system that is out of date and out of control
It lasted all of 24 comments before descending into insults
And a woman started it
Sign in if you want to comment
Why will we become a fairer society?
Page 1 of 2
posted on 14/8/14
You may touch on some true points with this however it isn't that big a deal
Comparatively speaking.
In the UK there is more money due that isn't claimed than money going out fraudulently.
Which proves this isn't the main issue, regardless of how annoying it is seeing folk who can't be ersed working jetting off on holiday and having more luxuries than some working folk.
Disclaimer ; when I say can't be ersed working I refer only to those who can't, not everyone on the dole.
A yes vote might fix it as it's a clear sign of moving further right.
Socialist nationalists?
Tories
posted on 14/8/14
But it's not a lack of self worth; it's an entitlement culture. There's a culture of believing that the state owes them a living. It doesn't. If you can work, you should be made to work and contribute to society.
The state is there to help you in your hour of need, not as a lifestyle choice. The sooner the state is reformed, the better.
Independence should offer an opportunity to reform it encourage investment into Scotland and create more jobs. We will hopefully see more people in employment and a greater pride in ourselves and identity that will encourage and foster a nation that is no longer dependant on handouts and this culture of entitlement.
But I won't hold my breath. It's ingrained and in-bred into so many, it will always be there.
No doubt we will get lambasted for this opinion. But why should people who have not so tribute be allowed to play the system for so long ? Countries like Australia and the US wouldn't tolerate it. You get a fixed period of state benefits to help when you require it. That's how it should be.
If you genuinely need long term support then that should be covered by the system. But this is specifically about those who can contribute but have no intention to. And leach of the state shamelessly.
A vote yes is snoop reunite to reform the state in a manner that best suits the people of Scotland in a modern and progressive Scotland. Not one shackelled by the beaurocracy and inertia of a Westminster led government
posted on 14/8/14
*a vote yes is an opportunity
posted on 14/8/14
comment by 🍺 Original lauders 👌 The Real McKay 👌 (U9757)
posted 3 minutes ago
You may touch on some true points with this however it isn't that big a deal
Comparatively speaking.
In the UK there is more money due that isn't claimed than money going out fraudulently.
Which proves this isn't the main issue, regardless of how annoying it is seeing folk who can't be ersed working jetting off on holiday and having more luxuries than some working folk.
Disclaimer ; when I say can't be ersed working I refer only to those who can't, not everyone on the dole.
A yes vote might fix it as it's a clear sign of moving further right.
Socialist nationalists?
Tories
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thant doesn't make the fraud either acceptable or insignificant. It's not about comparisons but absolutes. Fraud costs billions of pounds per year. Money that could be invested in infrastructure, doctors, nurses, schools.
Where would you rather see this money spent ? On someone takin the pîss or on your local community and children's future ?
posted on 14/8/14
The "bigger" fraud doesnt make feigning illness ok!
Some people need a moral compass! Where is their self worth? Why do people not strive to achieve anything?
Answer - because the state makes it easy for them not to!
posted on 14/8/14
I want arguing that it's ok
Just that if you got rid of it (which we won't) we wouldn't be left with a utopia
posted on 14/8/14
posted on 14/8/14
comment by Mick Dee - War Came; War Saw; War Cöcked ... (U14135)
posted 28 minutes ago
There is a flaw in your argument.
What you are saying may work in America, but there is a class system in the UK.
Having a successful life has more to do with who your family are and what post code you grew up in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bùllshît. Don't use that as an excuse for someone's failure. Noe of us were born with a silver spoon or privately educated (Ginger excepted
Most of us went to state schools. And those upof us that work or have achieved anything world bloody hard to achieve despite the system and standard of education.
The opportunity is there for all. You either take it, and make the effort to improve your lot or you don't. The choice is theirs but don't blame others for their lack of application and motivation
I went to school with a lot of wasters who were intent on doing nothing. Sitting on their erses and destined for a life on the dole. Equally I had a,to of class mates who applied themselves and achieved. We all had the same opportunity. Some took it. Some didn't.
posted on 14/8/14
FFS Mick, do you still live downstairs with the servants?
You are a product of your own will and ambition! To blame a class system is pathetic!
Heres the thing - if your "fairer" society comes in and benefits are increased this will result in what? Let me tell you: a flood of other "dont wanna work" people crossing your border and making claims for these benefits. You see the more you give the more people who want! Then you have created not a fairer society but a very quickly bankrupt society
posted on 14/8/14
no one is disputing that you should work to have your place in society. but the sanctions imposed on people who are actually looking for work, just because there aren't enough jobs to go around and then forcing these people to go to food banks, is unacceptable. you can't just use the sweeping statement that every person out of work is a sponger. I've had periods out of work due to redundancy and it's not easy and that was years ago. now the system is just trying to make it such a nasty experience that people will take any job going so they can survive.
plus I find the threat by the tories that they'll bin the human rights act extremely disturbing.
maybe you do work hard for a living. I certainly do. but I find a lot of snobbery, ignorance and 'I'm alright jack' with these sweeping generalisations
posted on 14/8/14
" I find a lot of snobbery, ignorance and 'I'm alright jack' with these sweeping generalisations"
rats
posted on 14/8/14
Nobody would ever criticise someone ou of work wanting to get back into work. I too have been on the wrong end of redundancy. I know it's not much fun.
People in such circumstances should be supported and given all the help required to obtain suitable emoyment for their skills.
I totally agree that they shouldn't be made to just fill an position. The best use of their skills and experience is paramount.
But that is not the point of this op. It's about the wasters who have never comtributed and have no intention to contribute. Those that make a conscious section to do nothing and expect te state to finance their inaction.
Soete be clear about the differences between the various people on JSA or unemployment benefit.
There are those who need and are entitled to help. And thee are those who bed a kick Up the àrse
posted on 14/8/14
I think when we talk about a fairer society, we mean a society where we can have a bit more control overall. Thus allowing us as Scottish voters to have a direct impact on whats happening in our own country. At the moment, when we vote in a general election, it has no impact and we are having to live in a country where other people are basically deciding our fate. For me thats unfair.
Also, Scottish Taxpayers pay more per head than the rest of the UK, yet we are made out to be scroungers and living off of England, which is not the case. Yes we have issues with welfare, but so does the rest of the country. But surely we have to look after people who are too unwell to work? At the moment people who are crippled, going through cancer, suffering from chronic health conditions are being told they are not "unwell" enough to receive benefit.
I like anyone else can't guarantee that independence is the answer, but surely we are giving ourselves a better chance to thrive, by having the control to change the things we want to in this country.
posted on 14/8/14
LMC - I would love to take your views seriously but I do not believe you women should even have a vote. If you would all look after the children as your mum and her mum before her did rather than push on with "im entitled to a job" mentality the kids would be brought up in a more favourable environment and the world would be a better place. Leave the working girl jobs to the ugly spinsters that cannot find a man
posted on 14/8/14
Ally ffs
posted on 14/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 14/8/14
No one is disagreeing that there are people who kick the erse out of it, but under the present system people who are actually looking for work are being penalised through sanctions that are very plainly put in place just so we can get the bill down. It's all about the numbers and not about the people. You're never going to stop some people being lazy, but the present system does not work and being people are being harassed, bullied, sanctioned and starved. I'll say it again the present system is about getting the bill down and is more about numbers than people.
Again I'll say the proposed scrapping of the Human Rights Act in Britain is extremely worrying. The tories say it's because of one rule to do with immigration. Given what is happening to the NHS and the unemployed I'm finding this very sinister and extremely worrying.
i don't think there will ever be an ideal solution because there will always be people out there who want to work the system, and I agree that central Scotland needs to get back to work, but the way things are going under the current system is alarming and there has to be a better way to reform. Starving people due to unfair sanctions is not the way.
posted on 14/8/14
I'm pretty certain we will all agree that the chance to look after all of our own affairs is the number one goal of this whole independence movement.
What this means to create a fairer society is the creation of a written constitution, a bill of rights for any human living in this country. This is a number one priority in a civilised democracy.
Increasing public spending while promoting free trade is paramount in a social democracy, not only does this encourage innovation in the private sector through lower cost to market but it also means that there are more jobs in the public sector to manage increase in public spending and the subsequent increase in public services.
The creation of jobs is the number one way to spread the wealth of a nation and close the gap between rich and poor. The culture of welfare begging would then naturally reduce generation on generation. Add to that the recreation of trade unions and labour market institutions to promote job security through negotiated terms further increases a sense of fairness in society as a whole.
posted on 14/8/14
Trade Unions Falkirk debacle lets you see unions are not to be trusted. Grangemouth is obviously linked.
Increasing public spending? Cmon we don't get value for money from these charlatans as it is without spending more on their penpushing/papershuffling mentality!
A bill of rights for any human JUSTIFIABLY in this country within reason!
Im more concerned with people grasping the mettle and attempting to better themselves with out the need to hold their hands and finance them through it!
posted on 14/8/14
LMC - I would love to take your views seriously but I do not believe you women should even have a vote.
------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 14/8/14
Super Ally, your short sighted attitude is mind blowing. You don't see the bigger picture because you are blinded by your own self-worth and generalise about stuff due to a severe lack of understanding and nit-picking on a few negative examples. You are entitled to your opinion of course but trade unions generally have a positive impact actually, rather than your tiny sample of negativity, and, anyway, it is ones right to become a member or not, to not have the option or to dilute people power to the point where membership means nothing most definitely is not right.
A written constitution is for the citizens of a country, everyone knows that so there is no need to point it out as if by scoring some point.
As for your final point, society is about co-operation, humans have evolved beyond survival of the fittest which is what separates us from the rest of the animal world. You can regress back to your Neolithic roots if you so desire, just don't drag the rest of us down with you.
posted on 14/8/14
society is about co-operation - well maybe some should cooperate and get off their erchies and find gainful employment!
Its apologetic attitudes like yours that allow these people to consider themselves hard done by!
posted on 14/8/14
Rats Juice
I agree, which is why a vote for independence is an opportunity to reform the system to make it work better and fairer. A system for the people of Scotland by the people of Scotland. Not some "one size fits all" system that is out of date and out of control
posted on 14/8/14
Arsewipe
posted on 14/8/14
It lasted all of 24 comments before descending into insults
And a woman started it
Page 1 of 2